Yale, SAIS, or SIPA: Any thoughts?

[Bob]

I am in the very fortunate situation of having my employer offer to send me to graduate school for International Relations. Tuition is not an issue, and I have a steady job to come back to when I graduate. My only goal is to educate myself.

I have applied to Yale, SIPA, and SAIS (M.I.P.P. only- for various reasons I cannot study the full two-year program at SAIS)

Assuming I am accepted, where would you recommend and why? I am leaning towards Yale, but don't see it discussed very often. Why is that?

[greendiplomat]

I'm not going to address SAIS and SIPA since I think they've been aptly covered in previous threads: e.g.

As for Yale, I think there are 2 main reasons why it isn't as heavily discussed: (a) the small class size of ~23 means that there a much smaller alumni base; and (b ) it's more academic in focus than other professional programs (e.g. distribution requirements consisting of poli sci, econ, and history classes, the paper requirement...).

If you don't mind me asking, where you work?

Edited November 16, 2009 by greendiplomat

[Cornell07]

Well, I picked Yale over SAIS last year and wasn't interested in applying to SIPA. I can try to give some helpful insight. So, the biggest questions are in what field will you be working after graduation and what sort of experience in grad school are you looking for (math? policy? research? interaction with profs? etc.)

Edited November 16, 2009 by Cornell07

[Bob]

Thanks for the feedback. To answer your questions, my work focuses primarily on international security in East and South Asia. I am looking primarily for a well rounded curriculum (policy, history, and theory) with a diverse faculty and student body. Math and economics are not important to me; I majored in economics and feel comfortable already in the field.

A couple specific questions:

- I hear the phrase "academic versus policy oriented" thrown around a lot, especially when describing Yale. At the risk of showing my ignorance, what exactly does that mean?

- I know SAIS has a great reputation inside the Beltway, but I am concerned by a lack of name-recognition outside DC, especially in foreign countries. Any thoughts, or experiences to the contrary?

- Most of the SAIS versus SIPA comparison concerns the SAIS MA. Is the M.I.P.P. still a respected program, or is it seen as less than a "real" masters?

[Cornell07]

Thanks for the feedback. To answer your questions, my work focuses primarily on international security in East and South Asia. I am looking primarily for a well rounded curriculum (policy, history, and theory) with a diverse faculty and student body. Math and economics are not important to me; I majored in economics and feel comfortable already in the field.

A couple specific questions:

- I hear the phrase "academic versus policy oriented" thrown around a lot, especially when describing Yale. At the risk of showing my ignorance, what exactly does that mean?

- I know SAIS has a great reputation inside the Beltway, but I am concerned by a lack of name-recognition outside DC, especially in foreign countries. Any thoughts, or experiences to the contrary?

- Most of the SAIS versus SIPA comparison concerns the SAIS MA. Is the M.I.P.P. still a respected program, or is it seen as less than a "real" masters?

Academic v. policy seems to me to refer to the type of preparation that you get. Academics need to be able to write lengthy research papers, newspaper and journal articles, have a background in theory, and may or may not need to understand statistical analysis, depending on your field. Professionals primarily need to be able to write policy memos, have a marginal, if any interest in theory, and need a lot of statistics. The far ends of the spectrum are programs like SIPA & GW on the pure policy end and Chicago & LSE on the academic side.

I knocked theory before I took a class on it here at Yale. Though I would probably never want to do pure theory, it is very useful for me to understand the different schema for framing policy situations and why we have certain fundamental assumptions about international relations.

Yale, I think is a good mix of both. At the end, I can say that I will be prepared for either a policy job (e.g. government, political risk management, politics etc.) or an academic path (i.e. PhD or think tank). Next fall, I'll be weighing three directions: a PhD in Government, foreign service, or politics (e.g. another campaign or The Hill). The first one I only want to do if I can get into a funded, top-notch program (e.g. Harvard, Stanford, Yale), the second one is a long shot for anyone (and I could still do it after a PhD), and there will always be openings in the third.

SAIS's MA is absolutely seen as a "real" and respected masters within the policy community. Some will knock it for a being a haven for neocons and an incestuous breeding ground for world bankers and commerce dept officials, but no one will say that it is not "real." No real thoughts about what the rest of the world thinks about SAIS, but I can say that their profs certainly are published frequently in all the mainstream policy journals.

[cmnt29]

Ok full disclosure I went to SIPA

Academic vs policy=Cornell07 laid out, but i would argue that SIPA is not that policy oriented. most of the security and regional courses fall within the poli sci dept and are therefore academic classes. policy ones are to be had if you want to, but you shape your course of study. I think I wrote one, count it one, memo at SIPA. the rest was academic stuff.

economics=SAIS requires you to concentrate in it, at least for the MA. SIPA makes you take a year of econ, and has another "skills" course or two of budgeting/finance and management. Yale, i dunno.

academics= the sais curriculum is strategic studies, and therefore more defense focused, whereas the other two schools are security studies and not totally focused on defense issues.

Consider asking yourself about these differences

Class size Yale=23, SAIS=250, SIPA=350. SIPA is also the most international with a full 50% of the classes coming from abroad, where SAIS is around 40%, Yale i dunno

Location: New Haven, NYC, DC. You choose. NYC is definitely a diverse and eye opening experience

What will you do after you leave your current job? I'd choose the program that best prepares you for that and, IMO, is the result of a large alumni network, practical skills coures that go beyond security issues in east asia.

Curriculum=as aforementioned, compare what you'll have to take at each school

Academic v. policy seems to me to refer to the type of preparation that you get. Academics need to be able to write lengthy research papers, newspaper and journal articles, have a background in theory, and may or may not need to understand statistical analysis, depending on your field. Professionals primarily need to be able to write policy memos, have a marginal, if any interest in theory, and need a lot of statistics. The far ends of the spectrum are programs like SIPA & GW on the pure policy end and Chicago & LSE on the academic side.

I knocked theory before I took a class on it here at Yale. Though I would probably never want to do pure theory, it is very useful for me to understand the different schema for framing policy situations and why we have certain fundamental assumptions about international relations.

Yale, I think is a good mix of both. At the end, I can say that I will be prepared for either a policy job (e.g. government, political risk management, politics etc.) or an academic path (i.e. PhD or think tank). Next fall, I'll be weighing three directions: a PhD in Government, foreign service, or politics (e.g. another campaign or The Hill). The first one I only want to do if I can get into a funded, top-notch program (e.g. Harvard, Stanford, Yale), the second one is a long shot for anyone (and I could still do it after a PhD), and there will always be openings in the third.

SAIS's MA is absolutely seen as a "real" and respected masters within the policy community. Some will knock it for a being a haven for neocons and an incestuous breeding ground for world bankers and commerce dept officials, but no one will say that it is not "real." No real thoughts about what the rest of the world thinks about SAIS, but I can say that their profs certainly are published frequently in all the mainstream policy journals.

[Cornell07]

Ok full disclosure I went to SIPA

Academic vs policy=Cornell07 laid out, but i would argue that SIPA is not that policy oriented. most of the security and regional courses fall within the poli sci dept and are therefore academic classes. policy ones are to be had if you want to, but you shape your course of study. I think I wrote one, count it one, memo at SIPA. the rest was academic stuff.

economics=SAIS requires you to concentrate in it, at least for the MA. SIPA makes you take a year of econ, and has another "skills" course or two of budgeting/finance and management. Yale, i dunno.

academics= the sais curriculum is strategic studies, and therefore more defense focused, whereas the other two schools are security studies and not totally focused on defense issues.

Consider asking yourself about these differences

Class size Yale=23, SAIS=250, SIPA=350. SIPA is also the most international with a full 50% of the classes coming from abroad, where SAIS is around 40%, Yale i dunno

Location: New Haven, NYC, DC. You choose. NYC is definitely a diverse and eye opening experience

What will you do after you leave your current job? I'd choose the program that best prepares you for that and, IMO, is the result of a large alumni network, practical skills coures that go beyond security issues in east asia.

Curriculum=as aforementioned, compare what you'll have to take at each school

Policy: I think we really have a lot of choice about whether we want to do policy memos or academic research papers or are forced to do both in many classes. US foreign policy had a crisis simulation that required a policy memo as well as some essay based exams. The intro course that everyone takes requires a weekly short essay or policy memo. Grand Strategy requires a few essays and a Marshall Brief and "murder board".

Econ: Take two econ classes, pre-approved by the program director. You can take more advanced stuff if you have an extensive background coming in (for example, a couple people are taking a Bob Shiller course) or you take essentially introduction to the international economic system. They can tailor the courses you need to take to your experience.

Academic: Regarding int'l/military security (my focus), you take broad survey courses like Grand Strategy with Paul Kennedy and John Gaddis or US Foreign Policy or more specific topics like Terrorism in the Poli Sci dept, War and Religion with Tony Blair in the Div School.

Size: I cannot give a great estimate of how many people here are foreign, in my year we have students from Belarus, England, South Korea and last year's I know has students from England, Canada, Japan, Belgium to name a few off the top of my head.

Location: I'll be honest and say that New Haven is not a great town. The biggest plus is our proximity to NYC (about 1.5 hours by train). Some people will take an internship on Fridays in the city and commute. So, if the UN is your thing, that may be something to consider.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Cornell07

[Bob]

Acceptances are in with generous funding all around, and it's decision time. I'm leaning very heavily towards an MA in IR at Yale versus SIPA or SAIS. I would like to hear anyone's thoughts for or against this decision.

The way I see it...

Pros:

- I plan to focus on International Security Studies and SE Asia. Yale seems to do ISS well, SE Asia only so-so, but the flexibility in the curriculum lets me spend time studying classes relevant to my field.

- Yale's academic focus is a plus. I still entertain the (fantasy?) of getting a PhD one day and Yale will open the most doors. I would also genuinely like to understand the theory. 11 years in government service have given me great OJT in applied IR, but I couldn't tell you the why if you stuck a gun to my head.

- The Yale name. SAIS and SIPA have great recognition among the American foreign policy community, but Yale is known by all the folks I deal with, all over the world.

- The faculty and staff seem very friendly and personal. I visited both Yale and SIPA (no time for SAIS), and was really struck by the reception I got at Yale versus the impersonal SIPA.

- Yale's IR program seems like its on the up, with new attention, facilities, and professors.

- Location. OK, New Haven's not great, but the suburbs are close. Moving from a large Asian city, I would like to give my wife and daughter a taste of suburbia before I stick them back in a crowded metropolis.

Cons:

- Maybe too much theory? Some of the classes offered seem a little too ivory tower for me.

- Small size = small alumni network. I don't know if Yale's larger alumni network makes time for us mere MA in IR folks?

- Like I said earlier, SE Asian studies okay, on par with SIPA, but not as good as SAIS.

- Location again. As much as I hate downtown NYC and DC, they do open the door to a lot of unique seminars and study opportunities.

Feel free to shoot gaping holes in my logic. My mind is by no means made up, and feedback, positive or negative, would be greatly appreciated.

[Cornell07]

Acceptances are in with generous funding all around, and it's decision time. I'm leaning very heavily towards an MA in IR at Yale versus SIPA or SAIS. I would like to hear anyone's thoughts for or against this decision.

The way I see it...

Pros:

- I plan to focus on International Security Studies and SE Asia. Yale seems to do ISS well, SE Asia only so-so, but the flexibility in the curriculum lets me spend time studying classes relevant to my field.

- Yale's academic focus is a plus. I still entertain the (fantasy?) of getting a PhD one day and Yale will open the most doors. I would also genuinely like to understand the theory. 11 years in government service have given me great OJT in applied IR, but I couldn't tell you the why if you stuck a gun to my head.

- The Yale name. SAIS and SIPA have great recognition among the American foreign policy community, but Yale is known by all the folks I deal with, all over the world.

- The faculty and staff seem very friendly and personal. I visited both Yale and SIPA (no time for SAIS), and was really struck by the reception I got at Yale versus the impersonal SIPA.

- Yale's IR program seems like its on the up, with new attention, facilities, and professors.

- Location. OK, New Haven's not great, but the suburbs are close. Moving from a large Asian city, I would like to give my wife and daughter a taste of suburbia before I stick them back in a crowded metropolis.

Cons:

- Maybe too much theory? Some of the classes offered seem a little too ivory tower for me.

- Small size = small alumni network. I don't know if Yale's larger alumni network makes time for us mere MA in IR folks?

- Like I said earlier, SE Asian studies okay, on par with SIPA, but not as good as SAIS.

- Location again. As much as I hate downtown NYC and DC, they do open the door to a lot of unique seminars and study opportunities.

Feel free to shoot gaping holes in my logic. My mind is by no means made up, and feedback, positive or negative, would be greatly appreciated.

As for the amount of theory, it really depends on what you consider instruction in theory. The intro class on international relations that everyone must take their first semester touches on a number of the major theoretical debates, among other things, and you are also required to take a political science theory class of your choosing. Other than that, nothing else you are required to take explicitly teaches IR theory - e.g. realist, liberal, & constructivist theories. BTW, as someone who hadn't touched IR theory since high school debate, I did poo-poo the whole concept of theory. After taking an intro theory course, however, I have a great deal more respect for it; theory allows me to understand the underpinnings of my perspective on problems, as well as the virtues and failings of the schema of others.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Cornell07

[energie]

Since SAIS has been discussed widely in this forum, I'll only speak about SEA studies at SAIS from a perspective of a SAIS student from SEA who worked (and will return to work) in the government. I'm not a SEA concentrator but know enough about it. (First you mentioned East and South Asia, then you mentioned SE Asia. So I guess you're interested in Southeast Asia-SEA, as well) And I have some comments on Security Studies at SAIS too.

1. SEA program is the most close-knit community at SAIS. It is ranked first in that sense in a SAIS internal student/staff/faculty survey conducted last year. Other departments might do well too but SEA is second to none.

2. You will really have classmates who care about what you're studying and can learn from each of them, and vice versa. They all have hands-on experience like you and might be your future colleagues/counterparts. And you yourself will be relevant to the program and to the school when you study what the people around you are interested in.

3. You may have known, SAIS teaches, among 15 languages, three SE Asian languages - Thai, Vietnamese, and Bahasa Indonesia. This reflects a deep commitment to the field. SAIS does these things in house, not sending you to other centers/institutes like language study in some other policy schools.

4. During Winter and Summer breaks, literally every SEA concentrator is sent to study languages and to intern in SEA countries. The subsidy can cover air tickets and living expense.

5. There are always students from the region or who used to work there, and even Americans who speak the languages. Some Peace Corps and Fulbright alums. Government officials in SEA are sent to train here.

6. There are huge networks of SAIS alumi (Americans and SE Asians) in SEA, or we call it SAIS mafia. Everywhere you go you could meet them. And they work in every sector you might imagine. I met those alum before I came to SAIS and that really helped me to choose among the top-four.

7. SAIS SEA faculty members really have close connections with policymakers and leaderships in those SEA countries. Some of them come to speak at SAIS off or on the record. Professors and professorial lecturers have worked academically and professionally on/in SEA long enough to get connected to those SEA policy elites.

8. In DC, it's never often enough that you can benefit professionally and intellectually from what this city has to offer. If you do SEA, DC is the best place to go. SAIS SEA is well connected to SEA policy circle in DC and all those SEA embassies/diplomats.

9. If you want a balance between theory and practicality, SAIS offers enough courses that you can choose from, not only necessarily in SEA dept. You can choose any related courses from 12 regional studies departments and other functional as well as economics department.

10. LOCATION, You DON'T have to live in downtown DC. You can live in the Virginia and Maryland nicest neighborhoods like MOST of the people who work in DC. They are much better than New Haven. You can commute by metro. I've been to everywhere I spoke about.

***International Security Studies***

According to #6 "academics= the sais curriculum is strategic studies, and therefore more defense focused, whereas the other two schools are security studies and not totally focused on defense issues."

That observation is not necessarily true. I have seen courses in SIPA ISP program and I would say at SAIS offers all similar courses in different departments. You CAN choose courses from different departments freely here. And if you are an MIPP student, you don't have to care about concentrations/departments. Also, you're not required to do economics. Just choose whatever you want.

SAIS has a different approach in categorizing courses into different concentrations/depts. The fact that SAIS doesn't have an ISP program doesn't mean it doesn't teach the subject. For SAIS, "international security studies" might sound pretty broad, if not vague. You can find those courses mostly in (when you surf the SAIS website) Strategic Studies, Conflict Management, International Law and Organizations, and American Foreign Policy which are home departments of the courses. Many region/country-specific security courses are offered by regional studies departments. I never counted but I believe that SAIS' security related courses number is no smaller than that of other schools. Some of them are cross-listed in more than one departments (often time functional+regional all together). Nevertheless, non-traditional security issues can be found in Energy, Resources, and Environment department.

If you have any question, please let me know.

Good luck

Edited March 28, 2010 by energie

[gen518]

Just to chime in on this one, I have decided to go to Yale over SAIS, HKS, and Fletcher. A few of the things that helped in making the decision for me were: a very flexible curriculum, slightly more academically focused - taught with a historical perspective more than a policy perspective, the Yale brand, the opportunity to pursue joint degrees at Yale, and a great financial aid package. That being said, you certainly cannot go wrong with any of those great schools. If you haven't yet, you should visit and see what you think after seeing the facilities, the faculty, and the current students.

Best of luck.