One offer from IU, should I reapply?

[AjjA]

I messed up in my GREs, submitted the result very late and it was a terrible one. Recommendation letters were not that great as well, I have a very good one, I don't know about the other two. I suspect one of them at least wasn't that great. I received rejections from all schools except one ( Indiana University at Indianapolis ). The city seems nice and affordable, a lot of labs there, friendly faces everywhere. But I have developed some interest in cancer immunotherapy, I don't see Indiana U. as a major player at this research. 

My current PI advised me to be more flexible and find another topic in cancer research, I'm afraid I won't be very motivated if working with something else. I didn't work with cancer immunotherapy before. I just find the idea ( alluring) and has a lot of potential in the future. 

Should I reapply next year with a better and earlier preparation for the GRE? Does it really matter to go to top schools? 

Edited March 22, 2016 by AjjA

[Bioenchilada]

What were your specific credentials when you submitted your apps? What things can you change? 

[AjjA]

1 hour ago, Bioenchilada said:

What were your specific credentials when you submitted your apps? What things can you change? 

MD ( international), GPA 3.9, three years of research experience at top US schools, two publications, GRE ( V. 154, Q146, AW3.5). 

Things can be changed/added : GRE score, I didn't study well last time, I believe I can do much better. I also can have the result prior to the deadline. Two publications are expected to be published by August. 

Things cannot be changed are recommendation letters, I didn't perform well in my first lab, the PI there told me I'm not even at the top 10% category and discouraged me from applying to top school. I don't think he will change his mind. I was a little bit better in the next lab. That's what's concerning me, my performance was mainly affected by lack of motivation. I need something translational. I found cancer immunotherapy the most interesting. I can't have letters from my instructors at medical school, most of them are clinicians with weak credentials. 

I see you are located in Indiana, can you comment on IU? 

Edited March 22, 2016 by AjjA

[jaesango]

What makes you want to do cancer immunotherapy? I did my undergrad thesis in cancer immunology, and I would say there are really only a handful of people at a handful of places doing purely translational work. Let's put it this way: do you want to do your PhD working on a topic like optimizing CAR T cells so they are 10% cheaper for the clinic, or do you want to do your PhD working on a topic like understanding why certain cancers elicit an immune response and why others don't. Don't get me wrong-- I agree that the field is hot, but because it's quite interdisciplinary, for young researchers it can be quite challenging. I'm one of those people who think that the purpose of graduate school is to not necessarily find the next Nobel prize-winning discovery, but to learn how to do good science.  

It's unfortunate that your letters are not great (if they are what you believe them to be). You're right in that you can't change them, but you should also realize that they are the number one or number two most important part of your graduate school application. If you can take a year off to work in the lab and have your current PI write a glowing letter (specifically addressing how you have found your motivation and are a changed person), then it would be worthwhile to retake the GRE and reapply next cycle. Otherwise, I think IU is a good school to pursue your PHD-- there are great, reputable PI's there, and while there may not be a cancer immunotherapy center like one you see at Sloan Kettering or MD Anderson, you will find a lab that will teach you the fundamentals on how to think like any cancer immunologist. If you read up a bit on the history, you'll realize that most of the "giants" were trained as fundamental immunologists or molecular biologists and slowly migrated into the field after they had already established their own labs.

tl;dr You don't need to train as a cancer immunologist to become a great cancer immunologist, and the work you do as a PhD student may not represent your greatest contribution to science

[Bioenchilada]

2 hours ago, AjjA said:

MD ( international), GPA 3.9, three years of research experience at top US schools, two publications, GRE ( V. 154, Q146, AW3.5). 

Things can be changed/added : GRE score, I didn't study well last time, I believe I can do much better. I also can have the result prior to the deadline. Two publications are expected to be published by August. 

Things cannot be changed are recommendation letters, I didn't perform well in my first lab, the PI there told me I'm not even at the top 10% category and discouraged me from applying to top school. I don't think he will change his mind. I was a little bit better in the next lab. That's what's concerning me, my performance was mainly affected by lack of motivation. I need something translational. I found cancer immunotherapy the most interesting. I can't have letters from my instructors at medical school, most of them are clinicians with weak credentials. 

I see you are located in Indiana, can you comment on IU? 

Okay, let me say a few things. First, did you ask for a rec letter from the professor that didn't like you? If so, this is probably what killed your application  (and the GRE). A bad letter will get you rejected almost immediately from anywhere. It's better to even ask one of the instructors with weak credentials for a rec letter than to have a bad one. I was in a similar situation with one of my labs and did NOT ask for a letter.  For cancer immunotherapy, one of the best schools, if not the best, is definitely The University of Pennsylvania. Not only this, but they are extremely strong in translational research as well, especially since they are affiliated with CHOP and HOP. 

 

In terms of commenting on the school, Indiana University- Indianapolis is probably different from the one that the other fellow posters are commenting about since IU-Bloomington is the only school referred to as IU. IUPUI is not as strong as Indiana University (IU) in terms of biomedical research. Rankings aside, you seem rather dissatisfied with the outcome of your application season and it seems that you are not going to be happy at IUPUI. If you were, then rankings really don't matter because you're actually content. Based on the tone of your post, I would probably suggest your reapply, if possible, once you make your application stronger. However, maybe you should try to work in someone's lab in the mean time to look for a replacement letter. 

[immuno91]

A few things, not all of them are the nicest comments:

1) Research is probably one of the fields that requires the most self-motivation. If you're not passionate about your current work and it shows (which it sounds like it does with you - especially if it's to the point where your mentors comment on it), that's going to be a difficult hurdle moving forward. If you don't like the projects that you're working on, "lemons into lemonade" seems to be the best cliché phrase that can be used here.

2) If you want to reapply and apply places that are leading the field of cancer immunotherapy - whether it's Sloan Kettering, UPenn, UW/FHCRC, or Harvard/DFCI - you're going to need three letter that are excellent. If you have any doubts about your letter writers you need to find new ones. A letter saying that you did well probably is not going to get you an interview at programs that are leaders in the field. Stop worrying about credentials. If the individual is someone that can attest to your research experience, then a strong letter from them would almost certainly be better than a generic or weak letter from a department chair somewhere else (and if they can't attest to your research experience, that's a different issue).

3) The GRE thing is something you recognize. Part of me wonders if for higher level programs international students need higher GRE scores - I can't really comment on this.

4) This goes back to the self-motivation thing - are you willing to do a lot of work over the next nine months to get to a place where you are competitive? Do you know how to make the most out of your next year? I'm not certain where else you interviewed, but if you have good stats and the functional equivalent of a doctorate already, I just don't see your GRE score being the complete dealbreaker here (I'm also quite firmly of the belief that statistics aren't the end all, be all of the process - unlike our resident biostatistician). Moreover, if you did interview other places, maybe asking what went wrong there is something you should do sooner rather than later.

[biochemgirl67]

Okay.  I can see where you'd want to reapply.  And you might get in somewhere better, I can't really say.  But.  I think you issue would be your letter of recommendations.  One bad letter of recommendation, or even a mediocre one, can shoot down an application.  It says a few things that I think @immuno91 mentioned; it can emphasize a lack of self-motivation.  Also, it can say that maybe you aren't the best at self-evaluation (if in your SoP if you talked yourself up but your LW was a little more like, "eh, they were okay,")  or that you aren't actually capable of performing in a research environment.  It matters what the adcoms think of you from the faculty who write to them about you.  It doesn't matter if your experiences were at top schools are not.

So I think your GRE is probably a secondary issue.  I am sorry your cycle didn't turn out the way you wanted it to.  I would find some new letter writers.  Maybe you a post bacc or get a job related to your field of choice or go to a master's program.  If you don't want to do that, and you reapply next fall with the same profile, you run the risk of similar results next fall.

[AjjA]

Thank you all. I really appreciate your input. My question now, although sounds like a reconciliation with IUPUI, how common for graduate student to ( make it ) in such low ranked school. And by make it I mean publishing in top journals. The comment of jaesango has made me do some thinking. I can see the possibility of working in some labs there. But still concerned about the role of the PI/school reputation and ranking in my success. Me, I can change, at least theortically, but I can't do anything about the school/PI. 

Another question, which is easier, to reapply or to transfer. I'm thinking to making a transfer to a closer ranked school but has more work in cancer immunotherapy ( UM-Baltimore ) 

[Bioenchilada]

As a fellow labmate of mine used to say: "Being in a top school automatically puts you in the loop" 

There's just an inherent bias with big names when it comes to publishing; thus, it is more likely to get published in a top journal if you go to a top school. However, you can still do so even from a "lower ranked" program. 

In terms of your question, I think it's easier to reapply than to transfer. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Bioenchilada

[biochemgirl67]

What about doing a post bacc or a master's?  The bottom line is that you can't change your profile enough in the nine months before submission.  The GRE is easy to fix, recommendations are not.  And again, I'm going to reiterate... Don't worry about their credentials.  Everybody cares more about what they say about you anyway.  And if you think they are saying anything less than glowing, you need to not use them again.

You can be successful at a lower ranked school.  However, going to somewhere premier really greases the wheels in terms of networking and exposure. Unfortunately, the quality and number of international students at such schools is high and low, respectively, because of competition.  I think you need to reevaluate how to change your profile in terms of GRE and letters as well as if it would be worth it to reapply with only the top programs in the US in mind.

[biochemgirl67]

Also, why would you accept their offer in Indiana this early if you thought that it wasn't ranked highly enough for you?  I snooped through your posts and I'm just a tad confused.

[ballwera]

 

1 hour ago, biochemgirl67 said:

What about doing a post bacc or a master's?  The bottom line is that you can't change your profile enough in the nine months before submission.  The GRE is easy to fix, recommendations are not.  And again, I'm going to reiterate... Don't worry about their credentials.  Everybody cares more about what they say about you anyway.  And if you think they are saying anything less than glowing, you need to not use them again.

You can be successful at a lower ranked school.  However, going to somewhere premier really greases the wheels in terms of networking and exposure. Unfortunately, the quality and number of international students at such schools is high and low, respectively, because of competition.  I think you need to reevaluate how to change your profile in terms of GRE and letters as well as if it would be worth it to reapply with only the top programs in the US in mind.

In this vein, have you ever considered skipping grad school altogether? You're an MD grad, which makes you eligible for most post-doc positions. 

[AjjA]

Indiana was the only interview I got. I've been trying to avoid grad school for the past two years, applied to a lot of postdoc. positions, impossible to get without being a first author. I decided to go to Indiana. Thank you for your input everyone. 

[biochemgirl67]

Just want to say for the record that if you've been trying to avoid graduate school and Indiana isn't truly a fit for your goals, you might be more unhappy than if you found another option.  Trying to avoid graduate school is not a good sign.

But if that's the way you go, best of luck!

[Bioenchilada]

I definitely agree with @biochemgirl67. You should really reconsider since you'll be unhappy if you end up at a place you didn't want to go and, on top of that, wanted to avoid grad school. But, do as you please.