Can you confirm my decision : turning down higher ranked schools

[KaffeeCafe]

Hey Everyone,

I'm feeling like I'm getting close to deciding on a program, but can't quite make that official commitment. Basically, I've been fortunate enough to find myself in a difficult decision of deciding between three of my top-choices (Duke, Northwestern, U-Chicago). I've really liked all of my visits and the programs ; stipends are good (I get additional $ at 2 of them), a few profs at each I could see myself working with, research overlap, good facilities, collaboration, a nice 'feel' to the department etc. 

I've been going back and forth a lot recently, but right now I am leaning Duke, not only because there is a wider range of profs (in terms of research and established vs new) I could rotate/work with, but also because of some uncertainty I have with the other schools : bigger department, a lot of students on visit weekends interested in my top 1-2 professors / no rotations makes me worried I might not get in my lab of choice. I'd also be much closer to my SO and family there.

However, I know Duke wouldn't be considered a 'low ranking' school, but these other two are not only top-10 in general but also in my specialty. I know ranking isn't everything, but is this too big of a difference to pass up ? There are established profs at Duke recruited form elsewhere, and I know if I do good work and I can continue on to a good post-doc.

I just want to hear if this logic makes sense to you guys, especially anyone already in a program. Thanks for all your insight. I'm ready to commit !

[St Andrews Lynx]

Go for it, dude!

Never underestimate or downplay (i) gut instinct about a place (if it seems like something is bad/good...it probably is) (ii) having more than 1 prof you could see yourself working for...who has $...is taking students...seems like a decent human being...etc.

From my own experience, everything is inter-connected. You will struggle to do good research and be an awesome scientist if you're stuck in a place you hate, or can't afford to live comfortably on the stipend provided.

[ConcertedMechanism]

I say go with how you feel. Where ever you will be happiest/most comfortable is the place where you will be able to accomplish the most. 

I am also wondering how you have already visited Duke? Their official visitation weekend is this coming weekend of 4/1-4/2, which I will be attending. I'm looking forward to it, even if it isn't a "top ten".

[KaffeeCafe]

1 hour ago, ConcertedMechanism said:

I say go with how you feel. Where ever you will be happiest/most comfortable is the place where you will be able to accomplish the most. 

I am also wondering how you have already visited Duke? Their official visitation weekend is this coming weekend of 4/1-4/2, which I will be attending. I'm looking forward to it, even if it isn't a "top ten".

Hey, thanks for responding! I visited at the end of January (they tried a really early visit for some of their first round of acceptances I think since their other only free weekends were in April; it was a pretty small group there though). I came away very impressed and it had a great feel for it -- especially since, as you say, not "top ten". Let me know what you think! I think I might end up there.

Edited March 31, 2016 by KaffeeCafe

[aberrant]

OP -- did you ask if your POI are accepting students in the coming academic year (or next year)? [just realized I'm echoing what St Andrew Lynx said]

You can have all the professors that you are interested in, but the other decisive factor other than research fit, quite realistically, is lab vacancy, which depends on funding, lab space, available projects, several other "small" factors.

Back in the days, is was very uncommon to have lab rotation in chemistry programs anyway. Therefore, you should consider having lab rotation is a "bonus". But whether a school offers lab rotation or not, you should still be able to identify labs that you are interested in AND will accept new student(s). That being said, it maybe a good time to start make a list of labs that you most wanted to join, and start e-mailing these PIs and see if they are taking students. Some professors may take you and put you as a TA, so if TA is an issue of yours, then that is something else consider -- but hey, at least you know this particular PI is accepting student(s). On the other hand, some other PIs may not be accepting students due to various reasons, therefore it is good to have a list of PIs that you want to work for, and put strikethrough on those labs that are not accepting student(s).

IF you have already finalized a list of POIs who are accepting new students, congratulations -- you got very little things to worry about.

[KaffeeCafe]

40 minutes ago, aberrant said:

OP -- did you ask if your POI are accepting students in the coming academic year (or next year)? [just realized I'm echoing what St Andrew Lynx said]

You can have all the professors that you are interested in, but the other decisive factor other than research fit, quite realistically, is lab vacancy, which depends on funding, lab space, available projects, several other "small" factors.

Back in the days, is was very uncommon to have lab rotation in chemistry programs anyway. Therefore, you should consider having lab rotation is a "bonus". But whether a school offers lab rotation or not, you should still be able to identify labs that you are interested in AND will accept new student(s). That being said, it maybe a good time to start make a list of labs that you most wanted to join, and start e-mailing these PIs and see if they are taking students. Some professors may take you and put you as a TA, so if TA is an issue of yours, then that is something else consider -- but hey, at least you know this particular PI is accepting student(s). On the other hand, some other PIs may not be accepting students due to various reasons, therefore it is good to have a list of PIs that you want to work for, and put strikethrough on those labs that are not accepting student(s).

IF you have already finalized a list of POIs who are accepting new students, congratulations -- you got very little things to worry about.

Hey, thanks for your response ! Lab availability of my POIs has been something I've been thinking about since I started applying. Aside from one school I've crossed off now, I think I will have good options (for both availability and funding) open based off my previous communications over the past few months, but that is something I am confirming this week over email! Now I'm wondering whether to be safer with the school that has a multiple labs as options (with good research), or my fave research in a lab I've heard has had some problems with the PI (although all my interactions have been very positive) with another lab or two there I also could see myself in.

[Eigen]

Just to reply to your original post: I think people worry about ranking too much. 

I chose a much lower ranked school with some fantastic PIs over several top schools when I was starting off, and one of my close friends did the same. He's now an NRC post-doc at with an exceptionally competitive profile, and I'm seeing similar interest as I'm applying. 

What ends up mattering at the end of your PhD is (1) your CV (2) your ideas and experience, and (3) the connections you've made.

Going to a top-tier school can help with all of the above- you have excellent faculty and great facilities, and usually the funding to go to conferences and make connections. But it doesn't guarantee it. 

Similarly, going to a lower tier school can make getting the publications, experience and connections you need more difficult, but if you're choosing a place with PI's you like that are well funded (and let's be honest, Duke is still an excellent school) it's not as big of a concern. 

The most important part of being a competitive graduate is that you find a place for your PhD where you, personally, can do your best work with supportive mentors and the facilities and funding you need to progress.

[KaffeeCafe]

2 hours ago, Eigen said:

Just to reply to your original post: I think people worry about ranking too much. 

I chose a much lower ranked school with some fantastic PIs over several top schools when I was starting off, and one of my close friends did the same. He's now an NRC post-doc at with an exceptionally competitive profile, and I'm seeing similar interest as I'm applying. 

What ends up mattering at the end of your PhD is (1) your CV (2) your ideas and experience, and (3) the connections you've made.

Going to a top-tier school can help with all of the above- you have excellent faculty and great facilities, and usually the funding to go to conferences and make connections. But it doesn't guarantee it. 

Similarly, going to a lower tier school can make getting the publications, experience and connections you need more difficult, but if you're choosing a place with PI's you like that are well funded (and let's be honest, Duke is still an excellent school) it's not as big of a concern. 

The most important part of being a competitive graduate is that you find a place for your PhD where you, personally, can do your best work with supportive mentors and the facilities and funding you need to progress.

Thanks a lot! I feel like it was something I just needed to hear from someone other than myself -- especially when some people around me were placing too much emphasis on the rank and giving suggestions based on that.

[chemandcats]

I was just looking at these forums today randomly for the nostalgia, and I had to make an account when I saw your post.

I was basically in the same situation as you -- I was accepted to a ton of very highly ranked schools, and I chose Duke Chemistry! I chose it because it was the nicest, most comfortable, most welcoming, with a large number of labs that interested me. It was also close enough to family and SO, and had the lowest cost of living by far!

Since the day I started at Duke Chem, I have not regretted it once. Everything is great here -- high quality classes, very talented students, and very helpful professors. I honestly feel like every professor and every classmate has always been on my side. Whenever I was going through trouble, it felt like I was surrounded by professors doing everything they can to help me.

One reason people think it's great to go to a highly ranked school is because it's easier to get a job after. Well, Duke is in the Research Triangle, which is full of companies and schools that all know Duke well. So if you might want to work in the Triangle, Duke is a great place to start. Also, Duke recently hired a ton of new faculty in popular areas like organic chem and chemical biology, and they're doing great so far, so maybe Duke will be going up in the rankings soon...

Someone told me only to use rankings as a tie-breaker, but never as a main decision-making factor. Go with your gut, whether it's Duke or somewhere else -- you don't want to wonder later if you would be happier at that other school you loved.

[KaffeeCafe]

1 hour ago, chemandcats said:

I was just looking at these forums today randomly for the nostalgia, and I had to make an account when I saw your post.

I was basically in the same situation as you -- I was accepted to a ton of very highly ranked schools, and I chose Duke Chemistry! I chose it because it was the nicest, most comfortable, most welcoming, with a large number of labs that interested me. It was also close enough to family and SO, and had the lowest cost of living by far!

Since the day I started at Duke Chem, I have not regretted it once. Everything is great here -- high quality classes, very talented students, and very helpful professors. I honestly feel like every professor and every classmate has always been on my side. Whenever I was going through trouble, it felt like I was surrounded by professors doing everything they can to help me.

One reason people think it's great to go to a highly ranked school is because it's easier to get a job after. Well, Duke is in the Research Triangle, which is full of companies and schools that all know Duke well. So if you might want to work in the Triangle, Duke is a great place to start. Also, Duke recently hired a ton of new faculty in popular areas like organic chem and chemical biology, and they're doing great so far, so maybe Duke will be going up in the rankings soon...

Someone told me only to use rankings as a tie-breaker, but never as a main decision-making factor. Go with your gut, whether it's Duke or somewhere else -- you don't want to wonder later if you would be happier at that other school you loved.

Hey, thanks a lot for the response ! I too was really blown away at the visitation weekend, and I found myself thinking back to Duke every time I was on another visit. I think all of your reasoning really reflects mine. I agree -- it seemed like a lot great up and coming profs ; it is obviously a great institution that shouldn't be discredit just because 'lower on the list' !. Thanks for your input and I'll probably be around in a few months! I just needed to hear this from someone other than myself!

[ConcertedMechanism]

On 3/31/2016 at 1:19 PM, KaffeeCafe said:

Hey, thanks for responding! I visited at the end of January (they tried a really early visit for some of their first round of acceptances I think since their other only free weekends were in April; it was a pretty small group there though). I came away very impressed and it had a great feel for it -- especially since, as you say, not "top ten". Let me know what you think! I think I might end up there.

I am just now finishing up my visit, and am very impressed as well, and maybe experiencing thoughts similar to yours on whether or not to attend. I have a feeling that I will choose duke after further consideration, so I'd love to talk with you more since there is a possibility we may become classmates.

[KaffeeCafe]

9 hours ago, ConcertedMechanism said:

I am just now finishing up my visit, and am very impressed as well, and maybe experiencing thoughts similar to yours on whether or not to attend. I have a feeling that I will choose duke after further consideration, so I'd love to talk with you more since there is a possibility we may become classmates.

Great! Glad to hear you enjoyed your weekend as well. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you want!

[aberrant]

On 4/2/2016 at 2:34 PM, KaffeeCafe said:

Hey, thanks for your response ! Lab availability of my POIs has been something I've been thinking about since I started applying. Aside from one school I've crossed off now, I think I will have good options (for both availability and funding) open based off my previous communications over the past few months, but that is something I am confirming this week over email! Now I'm wondering whether to be safer with the school that has a multiple labs as options (with good research), or my fave research in a lab I've heard has had some problems with the PI (although all my interactions have been very positive) with another lab or two there I also could see myself in.

For the 2nd option -- will you see yourself network with PIs from "(the) another lab or two" should you join this particular PI? Reason I asked is because you can be working for your POI while still have a positive and professional relationship(s) with other PIs, who may not be in good terms with your POI. I personally don't think that should be a main factor that influence your choice. (Just talked to Ada Yonath today. She was in a situation where her postdoctoral PI was in a bad terms with her original POI -- but she was able to have professional/positive relationships with both individuals.)

I personally would choose the program that has a lab perfectly fit my research interest and is able to accept me as a new student. If the above doesn't work, then I'll go to a program with multiple good options as my second choice -- reason being is that I can always do a postdoc in what I wanted to do later, assuming I have the quality to choose where I wanted to go (kinda echo what Eigen was saying).

[KaffeeCafe]

10 hours ago, aberrant said:

For the 2nd option -- will you see yourself network with PIs from "(the) another lab or two" should you join this particular PI? Reason I asked is because you can be working for your POI while still have a positive and professional relationship(s) with other PIs, who may not be in good terms with your POI. I personally don't think that should be a main factor that influence your choice. (Just talked to Ada Yonath today. She was in a situation where her postdoctoral PI was in a bad terms with her original POI -- but she was able to have professional/positive relationships with both individuals.)

I personally would choose the program that has a lab perfectly fit my research interest and is able to accept me as a new student. If the above doesn't work, then I'll go to a program with multiple good options as my second choice -- reason being is that I can always do a postdoc in what I wanted to do later, assuming I have the quality to choose where I wanted to go (kinda echo what Eigen was saying).

Hey, thanks for your response! I agree with what you said, but I just re-read what I wrote and maybe I wasn't clear. For all I know, the relations with other professors are just fine. What I meant was that, while there are another lab or two I could work with (if my primary one didn't work out), my first choice there, from what I've heard, creates some problems within the lab. One could say very hands on etc to the point where people have warned me about that group. That's what is more of red flag since if I cross this lab off my list my reasons for the going to the school drop quite a bit.

[aberrant]

On 4/5/2016 at 7:55 AM, KaffeeCafe said:

Hey, thanks for your response! I agree with what you said, but I just re-read what I wrote and maybe I wasn't clear. For all I know, the relations with other professors are just fine. What I meant was that, while there are another lab or two I could work with (if my primary one didn't work out), my first choice there, from what I've heard, creates some problems within the lab. One could say very hands on etc to the point where people have warned me about that group. That's what is more of red flag since if I cross this lab off my list my reasons for the going to the school drop quite a bit.

Got it. In that case, I think you have made up your mind! Haha. Similar to many others, I treasure the "freedom" I can have in grad school. Especially nobody can be harsher on my work than myself. I don't need that extra micromanagement from the higher ups.

[Agile Dienophile]

Aaaah!! I am screaming internally because I am in the same situation. I loved everything about Duke  during visitation (they were all so warm and friendly, faculty and grad students during the visit and really wanted us to be there) and I was pretty much using Duke as a yardstick when going to other visiting weekends. I have been accepted to 'higher ranking' top 15 programs but my heart is leaning towards Duke! It is good to know that there are people out there who went through this same situation but chose Duke and have no regrets.