Planning to apply

[chunk]

I need some counsel- 

I have a pretty urgent desire to move apply to MA/PhD programs, but i have no coursework in English from my BA (I discovered literature after graduation). I'm at a point in my life where I feel as though if I don't take a definite path in the direction of applying, I'll never do it. 

I see a few strategies to take but they would be costly both in time and money. I'm not prepared to apply anywhere without some courses first, so I guess the first question is: should I try to apply this winter after taking some fall classes or dig in and almost re-engineer an english degree over the next 18 months and apply winter 2017? *I stuck a few stats, history at the bottom

The next question is what types of classes to take: online courses, post-bac at an inexpensive college, or post-bac at Penn or Columbia thats gigantically expensive? Some cobbling of all three over 18 month or go full-steam this fall? In my undergrad experience, the opportunity of working with high level professors was ludicrously invaluable, which is why I think a place like Penn would just be great to have access to the professors to develop my experience and resume. I don't know that post-bac courses there would really offer any prestige on an application, although I do worry that doing classes at the local college might look shabby. 

I assume I could get into an MA program at very small schools if I applied this winter, or is it possible to get into a top-50 with my resume and some coursework this fall? My gut instinct is that would be better to do 18 months of post-bac and/or online stuff and then apply to programs. This could work out to be loosely equal finance-wise (barring exceptance into a funded MA) and I feel as though I could get into a better school in 18 months. I need the opportunity to accumulate experience and a resume, and I could do that at a small MA program, but I imagine it would look better to admissions departments to have my undergraduate resume plus some english coursework, than an MA from a relatively unkown school. that might be a bad assumption though; I was wondering whether on PhD applications there's opportunity for students from small MA programs to separate themselves and compete with students from prestige undergraduate and MA programs? 

This obviously is all a financial head-ache. I had a scholarship in undergrad, and my parents can help me out financially, but I don't want to have to repeatedly go back to them. If I went to an expensive post-bac, for instance, I think I'd probably on my own after that. But if I did small in-state programs I think they'd help me the whole way, assuming I'd eventually get into a respectable PhD program. 

Also, would doing great on the GRE subjects test count for anything in counter-weighting my lack of undergrad english experience? 

I really don't even know who talk to about any this, which i why I brought it here. I don't know whether I could e-mail english profs at my old school or talk to the career center or what. I imagine parts of these subjects have been covered before, so feel free to direct me to relevant threads.  

*some stats and history: Degree in sociology from a top-ten university (3.4 gpa), where i played a varsity sport, and wrote an honors thesis that brought into play a pretty wide scope of liberal arts disciplines- My advisors were in Soc, history, and economics. My interest in literature was born out of sitting around in libraries from sun up to sundown during periods of unemployment. I'm only lumpily read, but I've taken on some challenging areas, and spent some time harassing my alumni association to give me online access to pretty obscure literary resources, well before the idea of going back to school ever popped into my head. I've looked at online lectures too (the ones through yale/berkely/ oxford) and feel that I would do very well in those classes, and I feel like I could provide a good writing sample. 

[echo449]

You're going to need a certain amount of English classes, as a kind of hard minimum--possibly at least a minor's worth. I would find a few programs that you'd be interested in, and then email the listed faculty contact to ask about their policies regarding the minimum number of English classes required. No matter what you will have to take some, somewhere, and they really, really should not be online. You need letters of rec. I think a funded MA (or one of the cash cow MAs, if you can personally afford it) would be really helpful to you, and if you flit through other threads on this forum, you'll find rec's for which ones are worth looking into. And again, online courses are basically useless for someone who needs to build connections and writing samples. 

As for a post-bac....I really dunno. I don't know anyone in my program who did one...I think most people did MAs if they needed to shore up their background in some way. 

Edited June 4, 2016 by echo449

[klader]

Fwiw, one of my writing and rhetoric professors started his MA in English after getting a BA in a math/science area (this was ~1999ish). He went to a decent program but didn't get a TA appointment as funding; he did some editing, math tutoring, and research-assisting to get by. He did have very high GRE scores (in both sections due to his math background), but I don't think he had very much experience with English studies before his MA. He finished his MA, got into a good (fully funded) PhD program, and got a TT job.

So, it's been done before, but times are different now, so I don't know if you'd be able to do something similar to my prof. I think your plan of taking at least some (in-person) courses would be good since you'd be able to try out the classes and get some letters of rec. Have you done any editing work before? Any tutoring? Dabbling with that could also help prepare you for MA work in English (especially if you end up teaching some day - tutoring is very helpful for that!).

But, hopefully those more experienced with this than me can chime in here!

[ExponentialDecay]

A post-bac for grad school in English is wasted time and money. Maybe you'd be justified if you graduated from a European university in something like CS, but the skills and methods crossover from sociology is sufficient that you don't need to redo the entire degree. It's not like English MA programs are so competitive and over-subscribed that they wouldn't take a good but formally unprepared student (it is, in fact, their business model). If you feel a strong urge to spend a lot of money, you can certainly get accepted to the UChicago MAPH, which is interdisciplinary but will put you in good stead to apply to English programs. However, given you've done independent academic research before, come from a good university with a not-terrible GPA, and assuming good GREs, I think you're not past getting a funded MA offer. What would make a difference in your application is the quality of your writing sample (which must be in literature, naturally), and the coherence of your SOP. If you can take an in-person class (because you're doing it to get a writing sample and possibly a LOR, not to check a box) as a non-degree student at a respectable institution, go ahead.

[chunk]

Thanks guys! Very grateful for the quick responses. 

 

[echo449]

Also, and not to be rude here, but I think it's really important for you to get some coursework under your belt before you apply to a PhD program in English, not just so you can get in, but also so you can know if this is right for you? It's a large commitment to make, and I can't image making it having never had been in an English seminar before. Have you read much criticism yet? If not, you should definitely begin to read some secondary works on writers/periods you are interested in, so that you can get a sense of just what it is that we actually do. 

[EmmaJava]

On 6/3/2016 at 11:33 PM, chunk said:

...I have a pretty urgent desire...

...This obviously is all a financial head-ache...

So, I have been conflicted on this one. I don't disagree with anything that's been posted here, but I will feel like a little bit of a hypocrite if I don't reply, since I literally did what you're asking about, and it has worked well for me. I hasten to add that just because I'm offering this perspective doesn't automatically make it good advice (I'm sure it's not, in the technical sense), which is another way of saying that ExponentialDecay, for example, is probably more right than I am. But I also read these boards and often recognize that what is typically really great advice tends to be really great advice for some law of averages, or some disembodied hypothetical, and once you add some flesh and blood and context, you often get a really different picture.

As a point of reference, I graduated in 2002 with a BA in International Affairs. I then went on to do an MA in International Studies overseas (graduating in 2005). I then came back and launched a career, sort of, and by 2009 realized that I could never be happy in the field I was in, so decided to give the ol' PhD a shake, and here's where shit gets real. It took me applying to PhD programs in international studies, where I already had 2 degrees, to realize that it was the wrong field for me. That's a side story. Keeping us on point for reference, I discovered through the PhD application process to international studies that I should switch fields, to English Literature.  I had a small sprinkling of English classes on my BA transcript (2 or 3), and was fortunate enough to be working in the same area that I graduated with that BA, so what I did was this: I re-enrolled as an undergrad at that same institution and declared a double-major, so in essence it was like going back to "complete" a double-major that hadn't existed at all until I declared it nearly a decade later. But this worked wonderfully, as I literally ended up majoring in English while also applying to an MA in English at that same institution. So...everything all happened at once. I shored up my recommenders at the same time as I got my feet wet and just redirected everything in one expensively swift motion. Then I got into the MA program and just kept going from there. I had to take a 2-year hiatus while my spouse completed a degree (and therefore before I could gear up to apply for English Lit PhD programs), and just stayed active in that interim, writing like a maniac and working on the CV, publishing a little as well.

You can see why I'm hesitant. There is a 14-year gap between when I graduated with a BA and when I'll start a PhD in English Lit. In that intervening time, there are 2 MAs and a failed PhD application cycle to the wrong field, and a double-major getting declared and finished. This isn't the financial route that should be advised, and even I can look at the trajectory and see that I took a wild leap of faith. But guess what? I'm headed to UVA with a passion burning just as hot - no, hotter - as when I made my decision in 2009, so it couldn't have been a miscalculation, either. I'll be in my 40s when I emerge with my cred. Nobody ever said this was the way to go, and again, no disagreement from me... 

...Unless...

...Unless you are 100% positive that this is what you want to do, in which case you'd be crazy not to do it. I am being very mindful of my own language and yours as well - and only saying this in light of your language: you say that you have a "pretty urgent desire," and you know that this can be a "financial head-ache." Check and check, if those are both true then you're where I was in 2009. I'm relating all too well. Now the question is, have you got the talent, stamina, and resources? It is unfortunate how snooty that will inevitably sound, and I don't like it one bit, but I genuinely believe that the answer to that question is the difference between checkmate and stalemate. And let's face it - here I am saying that I had to have had talent, stamina, and resources, but I also needed some damn good luck (especially as I got in off a waitlist). So, you'll need to keep "urgent desire" and "financial head-ache" very much at the forefront of your thinking as you decide whether you want to jump off a cliff, and do remember that this is coming from someone who is in one important sense still plummeting, as I haven't even entered my program yet. So, think very hard, and answer very honestly.

[chunk]

On 6/5/2016 at 10:37 AM, echo449 said:

 

that's a great story, thank you for sharing it. The proverbial 'double major' gambit is great. I need some sort of strategy like that to get some coursework, because I am hesitant to jump into a big application process without any classroom experience. I'm thinking about trying to find employment at a university that offers a tuition waiver to employees, and going to night school in the english department. There's a few different pieces there that I'm uncertain about: whether the tuition waiver or reimbursment would apply to a low level, administrative job, and whether courses in english are offered at night. I also don't know what universities' policies are on doing post-bac in english. It looks like every school is different. On the positive side, I've found more university jobs that I'm qualified for in past few days than four years of looking on the general job market, and have gotten responses today to applications I filed yesterday, whereas I'm used to waiting for about six weeks to never for a response. I would also take a university job just for access to the library. And maybe just the proximity to the english department and the professors might be of some value.