Deciding against a LOR from previous PI

[prospectivegrad1]

Hey all,

So my current situation is this: I have 2 strong LORs (one from my current PI, another from a close collaborator) but for my third LOR, I have to decide between my previous PI and a professor that I worked closely with in two of my courses. Because I believe that my professor knows me very well and my way of thinking, I decided to ask the professor for a LOR as opposed to my previous PI.

But since I will be talking (briefly) about my research experience with my previous PI in my SOP, do you think the absence of LOR will be a red flag? I know my previous PI could write me a LOR if I asked for one, but I truly think that the LOR from my professor will be stronger. This is because my previous PI was not very hands-on (ie. she didn't see me often) and it has been >2 years since I worked for her. 

What do you guys think? Will this be a red flag?

Thanks!

[TakeruK]

I don't think it will be a red flag because as you said, it's been more than 2 years since you worked with this PI. 

However, if you are asking us to weigh the merits of one letter vs. another, my default answer would be that the PI from 2 years ago is probably still going to be a better letter than the professor you worked with in two of your courses. If you want further advice on this, perhaps you could indicate why you think the course-professor might write a better LOR than your previous PI? (But you don't have to if you don't want to).

Also, regarding the hands-off nature of the PI---this is normal. Was there someone else that you worked with closely instead of the PI, such as a grad student, postdoc, staff scientist, lab manager etc? If so, perhaps this person could work with the PI to write the letter (and the PI would sign it). When I supervised an undergrad student, I worked with them almost every day and the student only met with the professor once every 2 weeks. However, at the end of the summer, I wrote a summary of everything that happened and a list of accomplishments/strong points that the professor uses to write LORs for the student. So, especially in labs/groups with hands-off PIs, the letter might be written or partially written by someone else and signed/submitted by the PI. Therefore, I would not worry about the hands-off part of the PI, unless there is no one that can help the PI with the content of the letter.

[prospectivegrad1]

16 hours ago, TakeruK said:

I don't think it will be a red flag because as you said, it's been more than 2 years since you worked with this PI. 

However, if you are asking us to weigh the merits of one letter vs. another, my default answer would be that the PI from 2 years ago is probably still going to be a better letter than the professor you worked with in two of your courses. If you want further advice on this, perhaps you could indicate why you think the course-professor might write a better LOR than your previous PI? (But you don't have to if you don't want to).

Also, regarding the hands-off nature of the PI---this is normal. Was there someone else that you worked with closely instead of the PI, such as a grad student, postdoc, staff scientist, lab manager etc? If so, perhaps this person could work with the PI to write the letter (and the PI would sign it). When I supervised an undergrad student, I worked with them almost every day and the student only met with the professor once every 2 weeks. However, at the end of the summer, I wrote a summary of everything that happened and a list of accomplishments/strong points that the professor uses to write LORs for the student. So, especially in labs/groups with hands-off PIs, the letter might be written or partially written by someone else and signed/submitted by the PI. Therefore, I would not worry about the hands-off part of the PI, unless there is no one that can help the PI with the content of the letter.

 

 

Hey @TakeruK, thanks for your advice. My response to your suggestion on getting someone who I worked closely with to assist in the letter writing is that the grad student that I worked closely has graduated. In addition, the hands-off nature of my previous PI was more extreme than your example. I only met with the PI twice the entire time I spent in that lab (I spent a summer there). 

The reason I believe the professor would be the better option is mostly because of the rigor of the course I took with him. In this course, I was given the opportunity to develop a PhD research, propose experiments that will address the hypothesis and present it to the class. I also had to write a grant proposal on this project. Overall, I think the professor and I are both aware of the skills obtained from this course and how these skills are critical in graduate studies. 

What do you think?

Edited October 11, 2016 by prospectivegrad1

[TakeruK]

My student met, in person with the professor & me, only about 6 times during the whole summer. It's more than your contact but not that much more.

I also had a previous experience where I worked in a biophysics lab for 8 months (full time, 40 hours per week) and the PI was on sabbatical in Germany the entire time. I worked with the lab manager every day. The PI only visited in-person for 3 days during a mini conference. There were group meetings every 2 weeks where it was 10 people in a room and the PI on Skype. I only spoke maybe 2 or 3 sentences each time (the lab manager generally reported my progress to the PI). There were also a few situations where I emailed the PI (copying the lab manager) about a few questions. I still got a letter from the PI, which is almost certainly written by the lab manager (arranging for a letter was part of the exit process of this lab).

For your specific situation, sure, maybe your other choice could be a lot better. I would recommend discussing this faculty in your department. Maybe start with your current PI and see what they think. Then, you could discuss it with your former PI or the other letter choice and see what they think too. You don't know what kind of notes your former PI may have on file already for you.

[prospectivegrad1]

47 minutes ago, TakeruK said:

My student met, in person with the professor & me, only about 6 times during the whole summer. It's more than your contact but not that much more.

I also had a previous experience where I worked in a biophysics lab for 8 months (full time, 40 hours per week) and the PI was on sabbatical in Germany the entire time. I worked with the lab manager every day. The PI only visited in-person for 3 days during a mini conference. There were group meetings every 2 weeks where it was 10 people in a room and the PI on Skype. I only spoke maybe 2 or 3 sentences each time (the lab manager generally reported my progress to the PI). There were also a few situations where I emailed the PI (copying the lab manager) about a few questions. I still got a letter from the PI, which is almost certainly written by the lab manager (arranging for a letter was part of the exit process of this lab).

For your specific situation, sure, maybe your other choice could be a lot better. I would recommend discussing this faculty in your department. Maybe start with your current PI and see what they think. Then, you could discuss it with your former PI or the other letter choice and see what they think too. You don't know what kind of notes your former PI may have on file already for you.

 

Hmm interesting. Thanks for your advice--I'll chat it up with my current supervisors.