Domestic vs. International PhD: Pros and Cons

[jgrant1118]

So, I am wanting to start a discussion about the pros and cons of various programs in the US and outside the US in the UK and Canada. There are many things to consider as I'm looking into programs in all three countries, and I'm sure many are looking into other options as well. The US may have more funding, but is (and, can be considerably) longer. The UK is rather short and is probably best for those who already know their specific interests and are prepared in their academic background and languages, or so I've heard. Canada and the UK don't require the GRE. The US does. The other countries prefer a MA thesis (the programs I am interested in). The US does not. Rather the US wants simply a "substantial" paper about 20 pages. I haven't had a paper that short since I was a Soph/Jr in college. What about jobs? My undergrad professors were varied, though the majority came from the UK. Would I be correct in saying that 95% of jobs are US PhDs? I have seen very few Canadian PhDs in the states or the UK. What are you looking into? Why? If moving across the pond or into Canada is not an issue, why not consider their programs?

I'm looking forward to hearing people's opinions!

[JustChill]

I've been thinking about this myself quite a bit. I've been accepted into an M.Phil. program in the UK, but even though it's in one of the most famous universities in the world, I keep feeling apprehensive about how American universities are going to take that degree when I apply for top US PhD programs afterwards. I know for a fact that I want to teach and do research in the US, so my intention is to get an American PhD, but the more I think about it, the more it seems like I am better off getting an American master's too, not just PhD. We'll see what happens with my other applications, I guess.

[LateAntique]

Take this for what it's worth:

At the annual SBL meeting I was talking with some friends who are Ph.D students at various institutions (Duke, U of Chicago, etc). They were talking about how American schools are somewhat suspicious of an American who goes overseas to do their Ph.D. Likewise, I was told by someone at a school I was going to apply to (but ended up not) that I would probably be asked to do another MA (or something equivalent) if I went overseas to do an MA.

Edited January 18, 2010 by LateAntique

[jgrant1118]

Some more thoughts...I read a forum elsewhere dealing with the same subject. There was some rather interesting perspectives. Their thoughts are that the specificity of the UK programs leaves you "unprepared" when compared to a US PhD who had comprehensives. Though a UK grad may be better prepared to carry out independent research, they are less able to teach basic Fresh/Soph level course. I don't know if I agree with this as my professors were more than able to teach intro level courses. However, one UK grad, though not a UK citizen, had many UK teaching offers. Interesting!

[jgrant1118]

Take this for what it's worth:

At the annual SBL meeting I was talking with some friends who are Ph.D students at various institutions (Duke, U of Chicago, etc). They were talking about how American schools are somewhat suspicious of someone who goes overseas to do their Ph.D. Likewise, I was told by someone at a school I was going to apply to (but ended up not) that I would probably be asked to do another MA (or something equivalent) if I went overseas to do an MA.

That is rather interesting. I wonder if it depends on where you get an overseas PhD? Any thoughts on Canadian PhDs? Toronto and McGill are both top 50 universities in the world. Maybe both top 25.

[phd_aspirant]

I spoke with professors at Princeton and at UVA about this (granted, in theology, not biblical studies) and their take was not black and white. Generally, if you want to teach in the US, its a good idea to get a US PhD, but its not a shot in the foot to go to the UK. Depending on who you study with and the quality of your dissertation (in the UK that is) you could do quite well in the US job market (their words). I think also if you go abroad and want to re-engage the US academy, its important to stay up with it while your in the UK (i.e. doing you best to attend conferences, presenting papers, etc.).

[johndiligent]

Kind of tangential... I work in archaeology, and I've seen that there is a bias against those who do their Archaeology MA's in the U.K. rather than in North America. U.K. archaeology MA's concentrate on theory over practice, whereas Canadian/American MA's emphasise fieldwork. Those hiring field or lab assistants are suspicious that U.K. students don't have the practical experience they need (which they sometimes don't). The programmes also vary in length: U.K. MA's are 1-year, while North American MA's are 2-year programmes.

Granted, there are exceptions to the rule. I have a friend who got his PhD in Archaeology from Oxford and had no trouble getting a TT position in Canada. But, of course, that's Oxford.

[jgrant1118]

I spoke with professors at Princeton and at UVA about this (granted, in theology, not biblical studies) and their take was not black and white. Generally, if you want to teach in the US, its a good idea to get a US PhD, but its not a shot in the foot to go to the UK. Depending on who you study with and the quality of your dissertation (in the UK that is) you could do quite well in the US job market (their words). I think also if you go abroad and want to re-engage the US academy, its important to stay up with it while your in the UK (i.e. doing you best to attend conferences, presenting papers, etc.).

I'm in biblical studies and I've heard similar thing to what those professors said. Though the majority of positions in the US are held by US PhDs, Toronto, Cambridge, and Oxford all have representations in major programs.

[11Q13]

I know a professor of archeology that did his PhD (and I believe also his MA) in Israel. He landed a job in America but he said the biggest thing was that because he spent all his time over there he wasn't able to network very well over the course of his education. I think the ability to network in a field like religion is probably going to be just as impactful as what country the degree is from when it comes to landing that job.

[peppermint.beatnik]

I'm in biblical studies and I've heard similar thing to what those professors said. Though the majority of positions in the US are held by US PhDs, Toronto, Cambridge, and Oxford all have representations in major programs.

Kloppenberg, at U of T, is a major scholar in the biblical field.

*I have to comment on use of "impactful" because it's a personal pet peeve of mine--it's not a word. I know it appears in some recent versions of dictionaries, but so does "irregardless," which is also not a word.

[LateAntique]

Kloppenberg, at U of T, is a major scholar in the biblical field.

*I have to comment on use of "impactful" because it's a personal pet peeve of mine--it's not a word. I know it appears in some recent versions of dictionaries, but so does "irregardless," which is also not a word.

Indeed. I had thought about applying there to work with him, but I'm firmly entrenched in the Farrer/Goulder/Goodacre camp when it comes to Q.

[johndiligent]

Indeed. I had thought about applying there to work with him, but I'm firmly entrenched in the Farrer/Goulder/Goodacre camp when it comes to Q.

Kloppenborg's been very helpful to me throughout the application process. (Though I'm in the same boat as you are as far as Q goes. And I'm a nerdy fan of Goodacre's.)

[jacib]

That is rather interesting. I wonder if it depends on where you get an overseas PhD? Any thoughts on Canadian PhDs? Toronto and McGill are both top 50 universities in the world. Maybe both top 25.

Toronto is one of the top religion departments in the world, at least for things outside the Judeo-Christian tradition. I have noticed a few American schools that will have professors with PhDs from Chicago, Harvard, Oxford, Toronto and then a few degrees from Columbia or Duke or Cambridge. I haven't heard anything about McGill's religion program, but Toronto's is tops. They accept very few non-Canadians a year (I emailed).

[Perique69]

Just a note: Many U.S. programs want a 20 page writing sample versus a thesis because ad. committees can tell whether you know how to write based on 15-20 pages. Here's my two cents on UK versus US programs: it happens but it is extremely difficult for American students to get funding for UK programs. It's rather easy to gain admission to virtually any UK program, but funding is a different story. The top-tier US schools tend to favor graduates of the same programs. I was told by my advisor that an American graduate of a UK program might--and it was a very skeptical "might"--get hired at a top-tier US program, but progressing through the ranks is very unlikely. That's the case now. It wasn't so much 20 or 30 years ago, which is why you'll find some American UK graduates with a long history of teaching at some top-tier US schools. On the other hand, some of the more confessional schools that stay within their circle have plenty of Americans with UK degrees.