Program ranking vs university ranking

[DogsArePeopleToo]

Hello everyone,

What does everyone make of the ranking of a particular program versus that of the whole university? For example, Cornell's public administration program is ranked 43, and Indiana's is ranked 1 by US News and World Report right now. The "prestige" of both universities overall is quite different. If given the choice, ceteris paribus, which program would you choose and why? How much does program ranking matter vis-a-vis university prestige in one's professional career? Does it really matter?

[VMcJ]

Ceteris paribus, I'd go with program ranking. A program's position in a program ranking is probably a function of several factors, including its prestige among peers. People from the outside might look at Cornell more favorably than Indiana despite their programs' rankings, but scholars familiar with the field in general will recognize Cornell has a considerably weaker program, and probably place the appropriate weight to this fact when evaluating someone.

[DogsArePeopleToo]

Yeah, I see what you mean about the industry. On the other hand, a program like Georgetown has a location advantage that some better ranked universities don't have. And if you ever change careers, the Cornell brand might serve one better than the Indiana brand, despite the actual program rankings being the other way.

[guest56436]

Honestly, most of us aren't very in tune with professional programs and industry standards, this is a sub forum for academic programs.

[ExponentialDecay]

2 hours ago, Comparativist said:

Honestly, most of us aren't very in tune with professional programs and industry standards, this is a sub forum for academic programs.

Are you sure? You are in Professional Programs > Government Affairs.

Indiana has the top MPA program? Bullshit. Anyway, this insight is actually pretty universal across professional and academic programs both: in grad school, program ranking matters more than the university's layman prestige.  In a field like policy, the location advantage is furthermore a huge deal. It's why policy programs at otherwise shitty universities, like American or GW, actually have pretty decent job placement.

[guest56436]

Haha, oops, looks like I stumbled into this forum by accident, not you. Or maybe it was moved?

Edited January 30, 2017 by Comparativist

[OxfordApplicant]

10 hours ago, DogsArePeopleToo said:

Hello everyone,

What does everyone make of the ranking of a particular program versus that of the whole university? For example, Cornell's public administration program is ranked 43, and Indiana's is ranked 1 by US News and World Report right now. The "prestige" of both universities overall is quite different. If given the choice, ceteris paribus, which program would you choose and why? How much does program ranking matter vis-a-vis university prestige in one's professional career? Does it really matter?

look at the student placement -- rankings are worthless. Student placement is the only thing that matters. Indiana , in this aspect, is not even top 10. 

[pubpol101]

3 hours ago, OxfordApplicant said:

look at the student placement -- rankings are worthless. Student placement is the only thing that matters. Indiana , in this aspect, is not even top 10. 

 

 

 

Exactly.

However, to refer to OP's question in the context of rankings, go with university rankings as a small consideration. No one aside from students and deans--the people USNWR polls for the rankings--cares about what the program rankings say. Law and business school rankings are very good for reflecting employers' perceptions of the programs, but public policy rankings are not and are in fact borderline absurd. It makes no sense to rank Indiana above Columbia SIPA and Princeton WWS when SIPA and WWS are the ones getting their grads into the State Department, top domestic management positions, and major consulting companies.

Beyond this, though, scholarships, the course availability (e.g. CMU might be good if you want data-focused policy), location, and actual job placement of students should have far more weight on your decisions. The name of your school plays a significant role in where you might end up, but if you can't afford your school or if your school doesn't have the courses necessary for you to gain skills you can't get anywhere else, you're not going to get as far as you can.

9 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

It's why policy programs at otherwise shitty universities, like American or GW, actually have pretty decent job placement.

 

 

 

And not to nitpick your post @ExponentialDecay, but I'd hardly call "American" or "GW" "shitty." They may not be elite, but they're at least decent.

Edited January 31, 2017 by pubpol101

[VMcJ]

8 hours ago, Comparativist said:

Haha, oops, looks like I stumbled into this forum by accident, not you. Or maybe it was moved?

I think it was moved. I first saw this thread in the PoliSci subforum. My answer above had that in mind -- for professional programs placement is obviously the most important metric by far.

[Mr. Government]

Just to stir the conversation a bit, I am currently enrolled in SPEA's MPA program. For starters, none of the students I have talked to, including myself, actually think that SPEA carries more weight than HKS or WWS. The MPA rankings are flawed to a degree because not only are they opinion based, but there is no standardized metric as to what constitutes an MPP/MPA degree. Most programs offer two separate degrees, an MPA (public administration) typically offered to mid-career professionals and an MPP (public policy). However, some programs such as SPEA and LBJ offer only one degree, an MPA, but it is public affairs rather than administration and students choose whether to focus on policy analysis or administration. Likewise, WWS calls their public policy degree an MPA. The confusion is compounded when incorporating IR, which is included in some schools' public affairs programs, whereas other schools like GW and Georgetown have separate public policy and IR schools. 

Having said that, the rankings do carry a degree of weight in determining the quality of the program. While Indiana is a good but not elite public university, SPEA is without a doubt a top MPA program. The school attracts students from top undergraduates (Northwestern, Cornell, Notre Dame, Berkeley) and the faculty is as good as anywhere,  but whether that equates to top 10 or 15, who knows, and to be honest it doesn't really matter. These aren't law schools. I know people here who turned down Chicago and Northwestern's MPP/MPA programs because SPEA fit much more with their goals for a quarter of the debt they would have taken on from the more brand name schools. I personally had looked into the MPA programs at both Brown and UPenn and determined both were pretty crappy and provided zero reason to choose them over Indiana. It really comes down to personal goals, how the program fits into what you want to do, and if you can achieve it at an affordable price. 

I will give Indiana praise in two specific areas, however. First of all, unlike many of the other policy schools discussed on these boards, SPEA is not a cash-cow program. I'm actually going to graduate with no debt and I didn't even receive a scholarship (I did work for several years before coming back to school though, so I had some money saved up). Second, the program offers a tremendous amount of flexibility to tailor your program to your personal goals. Many policy programs require a ton of core classes and little flexibility for electives, but SPEA lets you personalize almost everything, including independent studies with professors and courses in other departments. 

So go with what works for you. I would argue that location isn't as big a deal as others are making it out to be. Plenty of SPEA students land internships and jobs in DC  (it has the largest public affairs alumni network), and don't have to deal with paying an extra $10k a year in rent while in school. I lived in DC for four years before going back to school, and I can tell you first hand that many non-brand name policy programs place people in DC (ex: Maryland, Texas A&M, Rutgers). Also keep in mind that these are programs designed for public/quasi-public positions, and going $100k+ in debt just to say you went to ___ is going to do more harm than good. Read through the forum here about how people took out massive loans for SAIS or SIPA and it's become a huge burden as they try to get their lives going post-grad, especially in an expensive city like DC. Keep in mind that these are professional schools, and you shouldn't even be applying to programs if you don't know what you want to do with the degree, so finding a program that suits you shouldn't be a hassle (given you have options). 

There are only a handful of other highly ranked programs that would have provided me the same specific curriculum that I'm tailoring at SPEA, and they all would have left me with some debt. If I could have attended any program debt free that provided me the same specific curriculum, I probably would have gone elsewhere, but for my specific situation (career goals and financing) Indiana just worked. Having said all that, if you want to go into NGO IR or go the PhD route, the brand name schools will give you a noticeable leg up. I'm not, so it doesn't matter for me. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Mr. Government

[C is for Caps Locks]

3 hours ago, VMcJ said:

I think it was moved. I first saw this thread in the PoliSci subforum. My answer above had that in mind -- for professional programs placement is obviously the most important metric by far.

I'd say even for academic programs placement is also the most important metric.

Even a PhD is an ends to a means (ideally it should help you receive a post-doc/faculty position or preparing you for a transition into industry), and a program (even if it's highly regarded) that doesn't place recent graduates well is not a great choice.

Edited January 31, 2017 by C is for Caps Locks

[DogsArePeopleToo]

18 hours ago, Comparativist said:

Haha, oops, looks like I stumbled into this forum by accident, not you. Or maybe it was moved?

You're right, it was moved. I posted it in the wrong category. Sorry.

[DogsArePeopleToo]

6 hours ago, Mr. Government said:

Just to stir the conversation a bit, I am currently enrolled in SPEA's MPA program. For starters, none of the students I have talked to, including myself, actually think that SPEA carries more weight than HKS or WWS. The MPA rankings are flawed to a degree because not only are they opinion based, but there is no standardized metric as to what constitutes an MPP/MPA degree. Most programs offer two separate degrees, an MPA (public administration) typically offered to mid-career professionals and an MPP (public policy). However, some programs such as SPEA and LBJ offer only one degree, an MPA, but it is public affairs rather than administration and students choose whether to focus on policy analysis or administration. Likewise, WWS calls their public policy degree an MPA. The confusion is compounded when incorporating IR, which is included in some schools' public affairs programs, whereas other schools like GW and Georgetown have separate public policy and IR schools. 

Having said that, the rankings do carry a degree of weight in determining the quality of the program. While Indiana is a good but not elite public university, SPEA is without a doubt a top MPA program. The school attracts students from top undergraduates (Northwestern, Cornell, Notre Dame, Berkeley) and the faculty is as good as anywhere,  but whether that equates to top 10 or 15, who knows, and to be honest it doesn't really matter. These aren't law schools. I know people here who turned down Chicago and Northwestern's MPP/MPA programs because SPEA fit much more with their goals for a quarter of the debt they would have taken on from the more brand name schools. I personally had looked into the MPA programs at both Brown and UPenn and determined both were pretty crappy and provided zero reason to choose them over Indiana. It really comes down to personal goals, how the program fits into what you want to do, and if you can achieve it at an affordable price. 

I will give Indiana praise in two specific areas, however. First of all, unlike many of the other policy schools discussed on these boards, SPEA is not a cash-cow program. I'm actually going to graduate with no debt and I didn't even receive a scholarship (I did work for several years before coming back to school though, so I had some money saved up). Second, the program offers a tremendous amount of flexibility to tailor your program to your personal goals. Many policy programs require a ton of core classes and little flexibility for electives, but SPEA lets you personalize almost everything, including independent studies with professors and courses in other departments. 

So go with what works for you. I would argue that location isn't as big a deal as others are making it out to be. Plenty of SPEA students land internships and jobs in DC  (it has the largest public affairs alumni network), and don't have to deal with paying an extra $10k a year in rent while in school. I lived in DC for four years before going back to school, and I can tell you first hand that many non-brand name policy programs place people in DC (ex: Maryland, Texas A&M, Rutgers). Also keep in mind that these are programs designed for public/quasi-public positions, and going $100k+ in debt just to say you went to ___ is going to do more harm than good. Read through the forum here about how people took out massive loans for SAIS or SIPA and it's become a huge burden as they try to get their lives going post-grad, especially in an expensive city like DC. Keep in mind that these are professional schools, and you shouldn't even be applying to programs if you don't know what you want to do with the degree, so finding a program that suits you shouldn't be a hassle (given you have options). 

There are only a handful of other highly ranked programs that would have provided me the same specific curriculum that I'm tailoring at SPEA, and they all would have left me with some debt. If I could have attended any program debt free that provided me the same specific curriculum, I probably would have gone elsewhere, but for my specific situation (career goals and financing) Indiana just worked. Having said all that, if you want to go into NGO IR or go the PhD route, the brand name schools will give you a noticeable leg up. I'm not, so it doesn't matter for me. 

THIS. Thank you. This is thoughtful, detailed and practical. Thank you for taking the time to write this response to my post. I am not planning to go into government (not the US government, at least) but I do hope to work at INGOs or the government of my country. Judging by your last paragraph, it seems like a brand name school is a better fit as long as it's a fit otherwise (my financial aid is covered because I'm applying through an exchange program).

[Nupur11]

Hi guys, I have applied to GWU for MPP. Anyone here has applied to and heard from them? My profile says under review and its been that way for about a week now. 

[Mr. Government]

.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Mr. Government

[chocolatecheesecake]

@Mr. Government wrote a very comprehensive answer. Just to add on to that, I think the value of the program is the people in it. A rigorous program, good professors, research opportunities, and being selective all serve to attract students, which are really the important thing. Not only do they elevate the discussion in your classes and make your experience really rich and worthwhile, they constitute your network after you graduate, and your degree will be worth whatever your fellow alumni can prove themselves to be. So program rankings and all the things that constitute them (whichever way the causation goes) are important insofar as they can attract the type of people you want to spend one or two years with. 

Placement is also a sensitive topic here. Placement seems to mean different things to different people, and I think that's because placement is ultimately about ending up where you want to be. Plenty of people want to go work for State Dept as an FSO, in the big management consulting firms, or for World Bank, Brookings, Pew, and other NGO think tanks, etc. But what if you want to work in local government? Or in a smallish non-profit? In another country? I ended up doing my internship in a small country in East Asia where no one else had gone, and I was really happy because my career advisors had the network to put me there, and it's been very good for my career because I came back here after graduation. It's not just sour grapes that I didn't end up at Deloitte, which takes 4-5 interns from Sanford every year. It's because I wasn't interested. So think about what kind of placement you want, and see how many people at your program of choice has been ending up in those sorts of sectors. Or if you don't know what kind of placement you want, find a school that has a fair bit of alumni in all three sectors (private, non-profit, and gov't).