The "if we admit you, will you accept" question

[repatriate]

Way back in 2007, my mentor told me that every interviewer would ask this and that any hesitation and any answer other than "top choice" will eliminate your chances. So far, this question has been asked in some form in two of three interviews.

My mentor also told me that this question is technically not allowed (but that obviously doesn't matter once they've asked). Does anyone know of a rule like this?

[solairne]

They really asked that? I don't see why offering admission to somebody who is hesitant about it would be that bad for the school. If it's a decent program and you decide not to attend, I'm sure there is a waiting list with people who would take your spot.

[repatriate]

They really asked that? I don't see why offering admission to somebody who is hesitant about it would be that bad for the school. If it's a decent program and you decide not to attend, I'm sure there is a waiting list with people who would take your spot.

Yep. It was phrased roughly like this:

School 1: Please be frank. Tell us how serious you are about our program. This has never happened before, but this year, if we offer a student a space and they do not accept, we lose that spot and can't admit someone else.

School 2: I want to get a sense of where this program ranks for you. Is it a safety school, someplace you're really excited about? I am going to go to the committee and advocate for your admission, so I want to know that you're really interested.

Talk about pressure!

Anyone else get questions like these?

[jordy]

This has never happened before, but this year, if we offer a student a space and they do not accept, we lose that spot and can't admit someone else.

What? How? Did they only get like 5 applications? I don't claim to know everything about the process, but that sounds suspiciously manipulative...

(someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

Edited January 25, 2010 by jordy

[repatriate]

What? How? Did they only get like 5 applications? I don't claim to know everything about the process, but that sounds suspiciously manipulative...

(someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

I don't want to give too much detail, but they have told me a bit about the funding structure of the department and the availability of funds for this year that makes this somewhat more credible than I would otherwise be inclined to believe. But without that information, my reaction would be exactly the same.

[mudlark]

I don't want to give too much detail, but they have told me a bit about the funding structure of the department and the availability of funds for this year that makes this somewhat more credible than I would otherwise be inclined to believe. But without that information, my reaction would be exactly the same.

I've heard of that happening at other schools before. In a bad budget year, sometimes departments just make one round of offers, and don't go to the waitlist if someone turns them down. So it has nothing to do with the number of offers, Repatriate. It's more like, instead of having 15 spots to fill and going down the waitlist until they have 15 students lined up, they just make one round of 15 offers and however many accept out of that first 15 (10? 8?) are how many students they'll take in that year.

[coyabean]

I don't think it's malarky. I've been told by my mentors for it to be asked,but with a great deal more finesse than our example though. Everyone is hedging bets.

[socialpsych]

Yeah. Happened to me a few times. It's really unfair, but you should try not to say anything concrete about your chances. Something like "I am definitely very excited about the possibility of studying here," and add as needed (concrete reasons why you're excited; reassurance that it's not a safety school; explanation that you're still collecting info about what your options will be, but this program remains one of your favorites, or something). I would be comfortable being pushed to say any given program would be "one of my top choices" (one of how many top choices?) but I strenuously avoided telling any school that they were my top choice, until the point where I had a clear top choice in mind (and told that school right away).

And if they ask you for a subjective probability...I'm stumped. That happened to me last year and I just folded -- I withdrew my application right away. This particular school had been really aggressive and I couldn't do it anymore. I had almost made up my mind (to go to a different program) when the question came up, though, so it didn't matter to me as much, but I don't know what I would have done if it had ACTUALLY been important to me to get that offer. Guess I would have just gone ahead and given them a high probability!

Ugh, I can understand why schools would want to know this before making an offer, but I don't know how it doesn't seem awfully unfair to them. I mean...you applied there! You paid an application fee, and you haven't withdrawn your application! You may not even know at this point whether you're going to have any other offers! Of course you're going to do whatever you can to get an offer. It's just testing your conscience against your anxiety about your chances elsewhere, essentially, which seems like a terrible idea.

Edited January 25, 2010 by socialpsych

[RedPotato]

Does anyone actually reply, "Yeah, I'll admit this is my safety. I don't want to go here in the worst way." ?

[repatriate]

Yeah. Happened to me a few times. It's really unfair, but you should try not to say anything concrete about your chances. Something like "I am definitely very excited about the possibility of studying here," and add as needed (concrete reasons why you're excited; reassurance that it's not a safety school; explanation that you're still collecting info about what your options will be, but this program remains one of your favorites, or something). I would be comfortable being pushed to say any given program would be "one of my top choices" (one of how many top choices?) but I strenuously avoided telling any school that they were my top choice, until the point where I had a clear top choice in mind (and told that school right away).

Does anyone actually reply, "Yeah, I'll admit this is my safety. I don't want to go here in the worst way." ?

This is exactly why my mentor mentioned hesitation. He said anything that showed uncertainty would be a kiss of death. As in, by the time you take a deep breath and say, "Well," they've already made up their mind not to admit you. But his experience is with clinical psychology admissions, which is more cutthroat than many other fields. (Admission rates at top programs hover in the low single digit percentages.) He's also a generally cutthroat, ambitious type guy.

[repatriate]

I've heard of that happening at other schools before. In a bad budget year, sometimes departments just make one round of offers, and don't go to the waitlist if someone turns them down. So it has nothing to do with the number of offers, Repatriate. It's more like, instead of having 15 spots to fill and going down the waitlist until they have 15 students lined up, they just make one round of 15 offers and however many accept out of that first 15 (10? 8?) are how many students they'll take in that year.

I don't think it's malarky. I've been told by my mentors for it to be asked,but with a great deal more finesse than our example though. Everyone is hedging bets.

Thanks. I feel better about it know that they really are in a tough situation. I understand why they wouldn't want to offer admission to someone who is holding onto to the spot just in case they don't get in anywhere else.

But I still wonder about whether schools are actually allowed to ask these questions, as my mentor suggested they may not be. But then, where would such rules originate? Accrediting agencies? Council of Graduate Schools? Anti-discrimination laws?

[profound_g]

I would probably perceive too much pressure as unfair, manipulative, etc. Once that happens I would not feel that I have a moral obligation to give very truthful answers, though it would probably significantly reduce the school's ranking on my own list anyway. This is all fairly hypothetical though, since I applied to a small number of schools, and I'd be happy to attend any one of them.

Edited January 25, 2010 by profound_g

[socialpsych]

I would probably perceive too much pressure as unfair, manipulative, etc. Once that happens I would not feel that I have a moral obligation to give very truthful answers, though it would probably significantly reduce the school's ranking on my own list anyway.

Your own moral standards are up to you, but you might want to check in with an advisor or someone to make a game plan. I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to damage your advisor's/letter-writers' reputations by saying something like "I would definitely go if admitted" and then not going.

[fuzzylogician]

What? How? Did they only get like 5 applications? I don't claim to know everything about the process, but that sounds suspiciously manipulative...

(someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

This happened to me last year at a UC school. Basically, as others have said, the funding situation was such that they could not re-offer a spot if the person they originally offered it to declined. They were quite pushy about it, because they could only afford to admit one international--if that person declined, they would have zero internationals in the cohort. I really didn't appreciate the pressure and ended up withdrawing, but if you're interested I think the right way to play it is to say the school is one of your top choices and you'll be happy to attend, but you'd need a little time to investigate finances and make sure it's affordable for you. I think that's a fair answer that shouldn't hurt you.

[fuzzylogician]

Your own moral standards are up to you, but you might want to check in with an advisor or someone to make a game plan. I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to damage your advisor's/letter-writers' reputations by saying something like "I would definitely go if admitted" and then not going.

This. You'd also damage your own reputation.

[coyabean]

Your own moral standards are up to you, but you might want to check in with an advisor or someone to make a game plan. I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to damage your advisor's/letter-writers' reputations by saying something like "I would definitely go if admitted" and then not going.

Great advice.

I have my two mentors on standby for my interview next week. They know they are to respond immediately to any texts that say "i am in a bathroom stall and..."

[nurye27]

Yeah I was recently asked the same question by a target faculty. He was very specific though, leaving me not much room to equivocate. After telling me about how they could make only one round of offers with no waiting list, he asked me if I would choose his school or school x if I got an offer from both. Direct as I am, I ended up giving him a straightforward answer: Sir, IF I get a good offer from school x, I would feel more tempted to pick them over you. It kind of seemed like the right thing to do, that is, being honest with him since he was a nice guy and I would like to stay in contact with him wherever I go. But it might not have been the smartest thing to do.

[punkybugsy]

I applied to 3 schools and 4 programs.. in my case, I'm turning 22 in March and it's my first round of applications, so I can honestly tell them that I didn't have safety schools on my list. I have all the time in the world as far as I'm concerned, so this year, I didn't want to put myself in a position where I might settle. That being said, I think I'll openly tell them that I didn't have safety schools and that my acceptance will be largely based on funding. Though I'd like to attend any of the schools on my list, it's unlikely that I'll pass up full fellowship funding from one school for TAships at another.

[tarski]

Sir, IF I get a good offer from school x, I would feel more tempted to pick them over you.

Ugh... and of course, in the worst case scenario you find out later that X would not admit you and Y already wouldn't admit you because they're afraid of you going to X. This question scares me.

[socialpsych]

Yeah I was recently asked the same question by a target faculty. He was very specific though, leaving me not much room to equivocate. After telling me about how they could make only one round of offers with no waiting list, he asked me if I would choose his school or school x if I got an offer from both. Direct as I am, I ended up giving him a straightforward answer: Sir, IF I get a good offer from school x, I would feel more tempted to pick them over you. It kind of seemed like the right thing to do, that is, being honest with him since he was a nice guy and I would like to stay in contact with him wherever I go. But it might not have been the smartest thing to do.

For future reference, you can still equivocate in that situation. Say you have not yet visited school X (or the questioner's school), or that you aren't thinking quite at that level yet given that you haven't seen the details of the offers, etc. In other words, pin your indecision on ANY information that you don't yet have.

If you have more nerve than I do, I could also imagine saying something like, "I was under the impression that I had until April 15th to make those kinds of decisions! Am I wrong?" ...but that definitely requires more nerve than I have.

Edited January 26, 2010 by socialpsych

[LaurenA]

I was asked this question in a phone interview and didn't have a problem saying, absolutely! I can see how it's morally sketchy, but I also didn't apply anywhere I wouldn't go. Although I can totally see how the "if X accepts you and so do we, what will you do?" question would just strike me dumb, even if the answer was definitely. I feel like that question is a different issue entirely than "would you accept".

[mudlark]

I applied to 3 schools and 4 programs.. in my case, I'm turning 22 in March and it's my first round of applications, so I can honestly tell them that I didn't have safety schools on my list.

Given the schools you've listed in your sig, it would be hilarious to pretend that one was your safety. "Will I attend? Well, I haven't heard from Princeton yet, but they *are* just my safety..."

[cogneuroforfun]

Wow, I'm really surprised how many people have been asked this. Its one thing if you apply to Harvard, MIT, and University of Nowhere or whatever, then U of N might know they're your safety. I don't know what I would have done if I had been asked. Like some others have said, I only applied to places I would be willing to go, but there were obviously some I preferred more than others. I think an answer of "I paid $x to apply here, didn't I?" while somewhat rude, would be completely warranted. And I would think smaller, less-funded departments are the ones that need to be as appealing as possible to attract top students, not pushy and rude.

[repatriate]

Wow, I'm really surprised how many people have been asked this. Its one thing if you apply to Harvard, MIT, and University of Nowhere or whatever, then U of N might know they're your safety. I don't know what I would have done if I had been asked. Like some others have said, I only applied to places I would be willing to go, but there were obviously some I preferred more than others. I think an answer of "I paid $x to apply here, didn't I?" while somewhat rude, would be completely warranted. And I would think smaller, less-funded departments are the ones that need to be as appealing as possible to attract top students, not pushy and rude.

To give a little perspective on this, of the schools I mentioned, one department is in the top 10 in its field and the other is in the top 75. The one that explicitly mentioned 'safety' was the higher ranked one. That alone threw me off my game, nevermind the general pressure of being asked something like this.

I notice that those who say they've been asked this are in the social sciences and humanities (psychology, anthropology, linguistics, English, history). Anyone on the other side of campus--engineering, physical/life/mathematical/computer sciences, etc.?

[cogneuroforfun]

To give a little perspective on this, of the schools I mentioned, one department is in the top 10 in its field and the other is in the top 75. The one that explicitly mentioned 'safety' was the higher ranked one. That alone threw me off my game, nevermind the general pressure of being asked something like this.

I notice that those who say they've been asked this are in the social sciences and humanities (psychology, anthropology, linguistics, English, history). Anyone on the other side of campus--engineering, physical/life/mathematical/computer sciences, etc.?

Well, I'm in a neuroscience program. I interviewed at 3 neuroscience departments and 2 psychology, and got that question nowhere. They were all good schools (with the "worst" being UCLA), and I answered the "where else are you applying" question on any app that had it. I think you would probably see that question much less often in the hard sciences, simply because funding is not as tight of an issue usually. If they want a cohort of 10 and 15 accept, they can make do; if 5 of the initial offers accept, they can always ask a couple off the waitlist or just go for a bigger cohort the following year.