To what extent do extracurriculars even matter?

[Coconuts&Chloroform]

Reading through the forums here, one is likely to get the impression that graduate acceptances and rejections are determined by an almost mechanical process (different for each school, of course) of weighing GPA, GRE scores, writing sample quality, letter strength, and AOI/POI. But these are not all that one puts in one's application or on one's CV. There are also extracurriculars, including those related to philosophy.

For example, as an undergrad, I was president of my school's philosophy club and TA'd three semesters. These were nice things to do, but do they count for anything in graduate applications? Schwitzgebel, on his graduate admissions guide, claims that extracurriculars such as these figure significantly in his consideration of applications. Still, it's quite hard to imagine that an applicant might be favored over another on the strength of his extracurriculars, especially if his application is otherwise slightly inferior (moreover, if Schwitzgebel's research is right, what good is his own introspection?!). 

Anyone care to shed any light here? 

[sleepingsusurrus]

I think it's about 1) doing the right extracurriculars, such as those you mentioned, and 2) marketing any extracurricular to show how it has provided you with the same skills one needs for a phil phD. In the same vein as applying to college the first time, liberal arts departments might be wary of someone who hasn't done anything with their time because, while much work is done independently, cooperative work within a department gives way to cohesion and creativity (both in the department itself and individual research). 

(edit) oops forgot to answer the question, so yes, I think they count for something. Perhaps they are used more as tie-breakers where GRE scores and writing samples are the make-it-or-break-its. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by sleepingsusurrus

[Dysexlia]

@Coconuts&Chloroform I'm technically in the same boat of not actually knowing, but, from what professors of philosophy have told me, yes they definitely matter, especially when related to your AOI / to philosophy in general. I think that what @sleepingsusurrus said is spot on too, if the extracurriculars help you to glean necessary skills to become a better philosopher then, of course they matter! I would imagine that conference presentations and paper publications (I think those count as extracurriculars) weigh in big time as well.

[fuzzylogician]

TAing is not an extracurricular, it's teaching, and I would put being president of your school's philosophy club under service. Those would be things that an adcom might be interested in. What they will probably not care about is whether you played sports or were in a band or in a Greek society, for example, which is what one usually means when one says extracurriculars don't matter for grad school, unlike undergrad. 

I would also suggest thinking of the admissions process as holistic, not mechanical. It's hard to imagine any one small thing having a big impact on your outcome, but these small things add up to an overall impression, and that's why these things matter. 

[Boa]

I was thinking about the same since I presented my work at a number of student (postgrad) and professional conferences, have two publications in top journals alongside 2 book reviews (one more upcoming), invited talks and several workshops/summer or winter schools,  one internship and four TAs. My "extracurricular" activities are closely (if not directly) related to my AOI. However, I am also not sure whether this will have any impact concerning my application. Sometimes I find myself thinking that it might since I applied to the PhD programs with a lot of professors interested in same areas. 

[Coconuts&Chloroform]

2 hours ago, Boa said:

I was thinking about the same since I presented my work at a number of student (postgrad) and professional conferences, have two publications in top journals alongside 2 book reviews (one more upcoming), invited talks and several workshops/summer or winter schools,  one internship and four TAs. My "extracurricular" activities are closely (if not directly) related to my AOI. However, I am also not sure whether this will have any impact concerning my application. Sometimes I find myself thinking that it might since I applied to the PhD programs with a lot of professors interested in same areas. 

Impressive. Are you an undergraduate? This sounds... next to impossible for an undergraduate (and probably most graduate students) to achieve.

[Boa]

17 hours ago, Coconuts&Chloroform said:

Impressive. Are you an undergraduate? This sounds... next to impossible for an undergraduate (and probably most graduate students) to achieve.

Graduate (MA). 
I also received suggestions to make my "extracurriculars" as relevant as possible to philosophy or my AOI, so that goes with:  "What they will probably not care about is whether you played sports or were in a band or in a Greek society, for example, which is what one usually means when one says extracurriculars don't matter for grad school, unlike undergrad." 

[panpsychist]

On 2/11/2017 at 11:20 AM, Boa said:

I was thinking about the same since I presented my work at a number of student (postgrad) and professional conferences, have two publications in top journals alongside 2 book reviews (one more upcoming), invited talks and several workshops/summer or winter schools,  one internship and four TAs. My "extracurricular" activities are closely (if not directly) related to my AOI. However, I am also not sure whether this will have any impact concerning my application. Sometimes I find myself thinking that it might since I applied to the PhD programs with a lot of professors interested in same areas. 

Most of what you mentioned aren't extracurricular (and I see that you did put quotation marks). Without knowing any of the details, on the face of it it would surely look like you have a pretty strong case there, especially with publications and invited talks. At this point, I think you could safely assume that your application wouldn't be thrown into the trash bin automatically. But of course essentially it's about the quality of your writing sample and how strong your letters are. 

[ApplyingToGradSchools]

On 2/11/2017 at 11:20 AM, Boa said:

I was thinking about the same since I presented my work at a number of student (postgrad) and professional conferences, have two publications in top journals alongside 2 book reviews (one more upcoming), invited talks and several workshops/summer or winter schools,  one internship and four TAs. My "extracurricular" activities are closely (if not directly) related to my AOI. However, I am also not sure whether this will have any impact concerning my application. Sometimes I find myself thinking that it might since I applied to the PhD programs with a lot of professors interested in same areas. 

Which journals are your works published in?

[Big Ariana]

Thought it might be helpful to disambiguate ways that "extracurriculars" like conferences, workshops, clubs etc can matter. 

i) These things can matter in that they make your application more likely to be selected for admission than somebody with a similar quality writing sample, scores, letters, etc. 
ii) These things can matter in that they can help you become a better philosopher and improve parts of your application

The general sense I've gotten from my faculty at both my undergrad and grad departments is that while you ought to try and do all these things because they will likely help with (ii), they really don't contribute to (i) at all. It's possible that publications will help with (i), but only in high quality journals. And possibly a big name conference would fit with that, too. But talking to people at other programs and people I've met elsewhere who are applying, I've definitely gotten the sense that people think that, at the very least giving conference presentations is an important part of a good admissions file, and that doesn't square with what I've heard from faculty.

Since presenting your ideas in philosophy clubs, getting feedback from philosophers outside your program, workshopping your papers at conferences etc will all make you a better philosopher, you ought to do it as much as you can. But the seemingly widespread belief that this is what admissions committees are explicitly looking for or that they even look favorably on it seems mistaken. The best explanation I've heard for why this is is that while people applying are looking to completely dedicate themselves to philosophy, it's not a prerequisite for applying that one already have completely dedicated their lives to philosophy. Not everybody comes from programs that can fund their traveling to conferences, or has the time to run workshops or clubs or the like, especially if they were working jobs while they were completing their degrees. So if somebody completely lacking in extracurriculars took the time to produce a high quality application and had letter writers speaking to their dedication, it's unlikely that anybody would notice the lacking extracurriculars, let alone hold it against the applicant. That said, it might be harder for such an applicant to produce as high quality an application as somebody who was regularly workshopping their ideas at conferences and the like.

[FEB]

On 2/15/2017 at 11:54 AM, Big Ariana said:

Thought it might be helpful to disambiguate ways that "extracurriculars" like conferences, workshops, clubs etc can matter. 

i) These things can matter in that they make your application more likely to be selected for admission than somebody with a similar quality writing sample, scores, letters, etc. 
ii) These things can matter in that they can help you become a better philosopher and improve parts of your application

The general sense I've gotten from my faculty at both my undergrad and grad departments is that while you ought to try and do all these things because they will likely help with (ii), they really don't contribute to (i) at all. It's possible that publications will help with (i), but only in high quality journals. And possibly a big name conference would fit with that, too.

Big Ariana, what would count as big name conferences? Do you mean only prestigious competitive conferences like the Rocky Mountain ethics conference, or also big association ones like the APA meetings? What about graduate conferences and conferences by small philosophical associations?

[Big Ariana]

15 minutes ago, FEB said:

Big Ariana, what would count as big name conferences? Do you mean only prestigious competitive conferences like the Rocky Mountain ethics conference, or also big association ones like the APA meetings? What about graduate conferences and conferences by small philosophical associations?

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that any presentation is not worthwhile. Getting feedback on one's work and meeting with philosophers outside of your home department almost certainly makes you a better philosopher and is worth doing. But I get the sense that if you're not getting your conference papers accepted over serious PhD-having professors, presenting in that conference won't impress an adcom that much, and certainly isn't what most of them are looking for (after all, they're reading your work themselves, so they don't need to rely on other people's judgments of your work's quality). So yeah, an undergrad or MA presenting in a general-session APA would almost certainly count for something. Graduate conferences likely do not (even though they can be as competitive or moreso). But the optimistic reading on all of this is that the person who had the time and institutional support and funding to travel to a half-dozen conferences isn't in a much better position than the applicant with the equally good writing sample without these lines on her CV. The benefits would come from having a half-dozen groups of philosophers give feedback on her work, not from the lines on the CV.