How much does AW section matter for M.S. admissions?

[an_internet_person]

Howdy,

I took the GRE back in October and was pumped with my scores (710V, 760M). That is, until I got my AW section back (4.0 AW). I don't get it-- I've always thought of myself as an above-average writer; but it's good to be humbled, I suppose... maybe I used words that were too large/awkward (sesquimillenium anyone?).

Just how important is the AW section (both for admissions and scholarships) for those of us applying to Master of Science programs? Will grades (A- to A+ in college English classes) or the quality of my personal statement offset this at all? Is it worth retaking the GRE for scholarship reasons?

Thank you in advance for your help!

werd

Edited February 14, 2010 by werd814

[spozik]

I'm kind of in the same boat (670V, 760Q, 4.5AW). Apparently, there is a formula that you need to follow to score highly on the AW section. If you don't know it, you won't get those top scores. If you do know it, you have to throw caution to the wind and trust it.

Anyway, I've been accepted at several pretty competitive programs so far, and I'd imagine that Classics would care more about the AW section than most sciences would. There have been a lot of threads here about the nature of the AW section, so you may want to search through those (if no one else makes a more relevant reply) for other scientists' opinions. To make a long story short, the AW section hasn't been around long enough for most educators to really have a solid grasp on if it correlates to graduate school success or not. Many admissions committees therefore do not put much stock in it. That doesn't mean that there aren't those that do, though. At the end of the day, your other two scores are well above average ( and you knew that).

As for scholarships, I'm not entirely sure--but I know that for the one university-wide fellowship I'm up for currently, the AW score was not among the criteria for nomination.

The bottom line is that if you think you have time to retake it and you are confident that you can do better on it (I only improved my score from a 4.0 to a 4.5, and I practiced a lot in the meantime--I thought I would do a lot better), it wouldn't hurt to retake it. Especially if you think your other two scores aren't a fluke, a higher score is of course better than a lower one. But is a 4.0 on the AW section the apocalypse? Probably not.

Also, your misspelling of sesquimillennium probably didn't help. Sorry, I had to do it!

[an_internet_person]

Also, your misspelling of sesquimillennium probably didn't help. Sorry, I had to do it!

haha, touche!

Thanks for the advice, and congrats on your acceptances! Here's hoping you get that fellowship

[an_internet_person]

Thanks for the reply.

In any case, your profile suggests that you've already gotten into a school with your scores, so why are you asking this question anyway?

Two reasons for posting:

1) Because I'm concerned with my standing with scholarships (as per the explanation in my original post), which will not be announced for at least another month.

2) Yup, I have indeed been admitted to a school. But, it's the least selective of the four that I applied to, and when I visited, I really hit it off with the adcom members of my department. Because I meshed with the adcoms, I feel that my AW score, which I know is at least on the cusp of unacceptable, could have been overlooked because of the long, convincing chat I had with them. This will not be the case at the other three schools to which I applied.

Edited February 15, 2010 by werd814

[yoshimoshi]

Howdy,

I took the GRE back in October and was pumped with my scores (710V, 760M). That is, until I got my AW section back (4.0 AW). I don't get it-- I've always thought of myself as an above-average writer; but it's good to be humbled, I suppose... maybe I used words that were too large/awkward (sesquimillenium anyone?).

Just how important is the AW section (both for admissions and scholarships) for those of us applying to Master of Science programs? Will grades (A- to A+ in college English classes) or the quality of my personal statement offset this at all? Is it worth retaking the GRE for scholarship reasons?

Thank you in advance for your help!

werd

[liszt85]

Howdy,

I took the GRE back in October and was pumped with my scores (710V, 760M). That is, until I got my AW section back (4.0 AW). I don't get it-- I've always thought of myself as an above-average writer; but it's good to be humbled, I suppose... maybe I used words that were too large/awkward (sesquimillenium anyone?).

Just how important is the AW section (both for admissions and scholarships) for those of us applying to Master of Science programs? Will grades (A- to A+ in college English classes) or the quality of my personal statement offset this at all? Is it worth retaking the GRE for scholarship reasons?

Thank you in advance for your help!

werd

4.0 is decent enough for the sciences. They don't really care about the AWA score as far as I know.. (heard opinions on this from various people, some adcomm..everybody agrees that the AWA is the least important of the GRE scores). I would bet that your funding decisions won't depend on your AWA scores.. unless in the rarest of rare cases your file competes with an EXTREMELY similar one with exactly same Quant and Verbal scores and the ONLY thing to base off the decision is the AWA score. You really think that's going to happen? So relax! Your funding will come through alright.

[an_internet_person]

Liszt, thank you for the reply.

Seadub, thanks for your honest opinion.

Edited February 15, 2010 by werd814

[an_internet_person]

Are you looking for sympathy or are you looking for the truth?

Too many people on here start threads pretending that they want honest, objective replies when, in reality, all they are looking for are some cutsy, sympathetic responses along the lines of "oh, you'll be fine" or "don't worry about it" blah blah blah. If you want sympathy, go call your friends. Don't go on some anonymous thread looking for it.

If you have spinach in your teeth, I'll be the first one to tell you. I'm not going to smile and nod and tell you that you look "just fine."

I'm certainly not looking for a pick-me-up-- I'll call my mother in New York if I need that. I'm looking for honest opinions from those who may have a better understanding of the matter than I, stated without biting sarcasm ("why are you asking anyways?" "fine" "your choice," not to mention your second post seemed to spitefully and caustically contradict your first). But if that is your honest opinion/educated advice, than I truly appreciate it. Thank you.

[JerryLandis]

They should sell tickets for this.

To the OP: sure, a 4.0 isn't a good score. Although it's not horrible. I think it's very common for good writers to receive surprisingly low scores, because their creative and individualized writing style may not fit into the rubric of "good analytical writing" that the essay markers are looking for when they spend 45 seconds glancing at your essays. A lot of admissions folks seem to understand this. That doesn't mean the score can't hurt you, but I doubt it will hurt you anywhere near as much as a weak writing sample would. That said, I don't know what your scholarship applications entail. I've heard through the grapevine that GRE scores matter more where funding is concerned, presumably because it's not individual departments handling those matters, so they want more homogenized data. Are you applying to some kind of fellowship program unaffiliated with your specific university, or are you applying for something specific to the university? Either way, I'd suggest re-posting your question somewhere where it can be seen by people who have applied for the same scholarship or who attend that university. You may not get much useful feedback here since I think the GRE/GMAT section is more for people still preparing to take the test. Or people seeking to be entertained by seadub's wisdom.

If it makes you feel any better, I failed the state writing test when I was in 4th grade, which according to state law meant that I could not go on to junior high the next year. Luckily I moved so I didn't have to retake it (although my teachers did appeal to have the test re-graded - don't remember what became of that). I don't remember what I wrote, but I do remember being in the advanced reading/writing group, and having my essays read aloud to the class as examples of good writing. So I have never let that state standardized test get me down! When it came to the GRE, I sat there and wrote the dumbest, simplest essay I could, making sure to use the cookie cutter structure they wanted, and I got a 5.5. Honestly, I think it was the most idiotic thing I've written in the past 10 years. I'm glad I got a good score since it's practical for application matters, but personally the score means nothing to me and I consider my graded essays to reflect my writing skills and faults much more accurately.

I know that sympathy and good vibes weren't what you were seeking in posting your question, but I figured you might need some encouragement after being insulted by the above poster.

[an_internet_person]

To JerryLandis, thanks for the reply. The more I hear about the AW section, the more I wish I had studied for it. I guess I figured that writing was the section I'd fair the best in without preparation... nope. haha. I may retake it if I think I can get above 5. From what you say (which reiterates a good bit of advice from previous replies as well as some of the other threads I've recently read through), the book-advice is super-helpufl, and different from what I expected. I'll be doing some more research into that as soon as I can get to a library (I may or may not have gotten rid of my Kaplan book in post-test celebration, haha). Some of these fellowships are full-rides, or pretty big chunks of change, and it may be worth it seeing as they have April review dates. On a different note, what a rough time with the standardized state stuff-- blah. Glad it worked out for you though. Thanks again!

Edited February 16, 2010 by werd814

[lily_]

I've heard mixed things about how the AW score is evaluated on the GRE, however I got a 6.0 both times I took the GRE and I will tell you how I did it.

They want you to write your basic 5 paragraph essay responding to whatever the topic is. In your first paragraph, cite three main points and one that goes against them. Then, in each following paragraph, describe those points, and have one which offers contrary information to the point you are trying to make.

The other type of question they ask if the one where they have an argument, something like "This species of fish in Mucluck Lake has gone declined 60% over the passed ten years and the EPA thinks it's because of pollution and an increase in fisherman." So, you come up with at least three points that counter this claim. Broach the question of what were the population rates of said species prior to the ten year study to see if this is simply a natural pattern of decline in a rise and fall cycle. Broach the question have any other species been introduced to Mucluck Lake in the past 10-20 years that may have had an adverse effect on the other species. Also, ask where exactly the pollution is coming from, meaning is Mucluck lake right next to a highway or nestled miles away from one in a forest preserve. And then wrap it up saying something like the statement about the fish population declining does not prove a correlation to an increase in pollution and fishermen. And of course take a couple looks over it to make sure that you didn't misspell things and edit it a little.

They aren't testing you on writing the great American novel, they are testing to see if you can spit out a formulaic, logical 5-6 paragraph essay. I don't know about MS degrees, but the departments I've spoken with did not seem to indicate that GRE meant anything aside from if you scored below a certain level you were disqualified (like 1200 or 1000). You can always retake it and your other scores are pretty strong, and I'm sure if you have a great UGPA, strong LORs, a well-written concise SOP they will overshadow that 4.0. I am confident though, that if you do retake it, this is something that (at least I think so) is easy to raise.

Best of luck!

Edited March 8, 2010 by lily_

[DrFaustus666]

There is a long blog on the Analytical Writing section.

http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2010/01/analytical-writing.html

I actually found the above referenced URL right here on gradcafe.com, some months ago. But here it is again.

Bottom line: Most hard-science programs don't put too much weight on the A/W section, especially if you're an international student who's not a native speaker of English. ...

Off topic: (And interestingly .... they say the Verbal section is WAAAYYY too hard. As a liberal arts/fine arts major, I'd say, yes, the Verbal section is a tough test, but its difficulty is needed to discriminate who is who in the very topmost level programs: e.g., Ivy League Writing / English / Poly Sci etc ... When everybody applying has a 4.0 in all their English courses, half of them have published short stories or poetry or essays, and the vast majority of them wrote excellent writing samples, how else DO you tell ???)

[Genomic Repairman]

Faustus your comment will have no effect on seadouche. He is beyond reasoning with and prefers to extoll the virtues and efficacy of the GRE while maintaining the vehement demeanor of an ETS fanatic.

[an_internet_person]

Hey again everyone. Thanks lily (great personal advice), drfaustus (wonderful link), and genomic repairman (you slay me) for your replies!

I just wanted to throw an update out there-- maybe it'll be helpful to those following this thread in the future

(I know I often read old threads and wonder how the OPs fared in their dilemmas):

I decided not to retake the GRE and, have since received a full tuition+ stipend MERIT scholarship from one Ivy (ranked 16th in my field) for a professional degree program known for lacking in funding, am being flown out for an interview at the University of Washington (ranked 4th), and am still waiting to hear from Harvard (ranked 2nd). No dice at Berkeley (ranked 8th), but a very friendly professor on the admissions committee sent me this e-mail in regards to their MS and PhD programs, verbatim:

"On the GRE, the only time we look at it seriously is if you come from an undergrad institution that we are not familiar with and have something like a 4.0 GPA, but low GREs. That makes people have a second look. But that is unusual and often people do better on one than the other. For a PhD it is generally a minor issue compared to your GPA and its course distribution. I'd worry more about getting the spelling and grammar right on your statement of purpose."

Cheers, and best of luck to everyone!

Edited March 9, 2010 by werd814

[lily_]

Awesome! Congrats werd and best of luck!

[DrFaustus666]

Awesome! Congrats werd and best of luck!

Ditto from Dr Faustus ! Remember what Mephistopheles [ the devil ] said in his soliloquy,

"From time to time I like to shoot the shit with the Old Man [ i.e., God ]. It's a right pretty thing that such a great Lord speaks so decently, even to the Devil."

(End of Prologue to Faust: my translation)

Point being, you've made it to Parnassus or Paradise or whatever you want to call it.

Thumbs up!

Edited March 10, 2010 by DrFaustus666

[Emilee]

More proof that the AW is not heavily weighted (at least for some programs):

I scored a 3.5 on the AW section (and I am a native English speaker). Yet, I was still able to gain admission to a highly competitive PhD program that is ranked within the top 5 in my field and has less than a 2% acceptance rate.

Strangely, I minored in English Writing in undegraduate, and several past professors have remarked that I write well (some of which probably mentioned this in their LORs). I do not think two 20 min essays accurately reflect everyone's writing skills or critical thinking skills and a lot of ad comm recognize this.

[an_internet_person]

Thanks guys/gals! And great anecdote, Emilee.

Yay!

@Faust: von Goethe ist mein lieblings Dichter... especially Erlkoenig.

[DrFaustus666]

Thanks guys/gals! And great anecdote, Emilee.

Yay!

@Faust: von Goethe ist mein lieblings Dichter... especially Erlkoenig.

Oh my God! The first time I heard Der Erlkönig (Schubert's famous setting of it of course) ... it sent chills up my spine ... and it still does !