How Old is Too Old ..... for Supervising?

[VAZ]

I don't think this question has been explicitly dealt with on this forum. Since there is no certain rule (since 1993 in the US) that when professors retire, I have no idea when they stop taking new PhD students. I have seen some retire in their early 60s and others still have supervisees in their late 80s. How do I find it out besides asking each of them directly? Is it really a case-by-case issue? In other words, should I be discouraged to contact any active POI born before 1945, or even 1950? And if one does accept you as his/her student, will it become a problem in your final PhD and early career years (for example, retirement, illness, or at worst, death, leading to change of supervisor and lack of reference). What are the conventions of (not) applying to and working with an old historian (methodology? technology? co-supervising?). Many thanks! 

Edited June 29, 2017 by VAZ

[fuzzylogician]

There are no rules, you'll have to ask each individual person (and they may or may not be truthful with you, they don't owe you insight into their retirement plans!). There are obvious benefits to working with established researchers who can open doors for you. And there are potential dangers, like you mention -- they might become ill or leave the field, leaving you in the middle or your degree. Or even if you graduate, you continue to depend on your advisor for job letters for some time after you graduate, and it's good to be able to use their connections. If they're not active, that could be a problem. Then there are also obvious advantages and disadvantages to working with someone who is newer (and less experienced). One good compromise for me was co-advising, to get the benefits of young-and-energetic alongside old-and-wise. 

[TakeruK]

Like the old saying goes, age is just a number. Some profs start winding down around 60, others are still going strong at 75. I wouldn't focus only on age, but instead, talk to the professor and other students and look for a good fit in advising style. From the profs I've interacted with, generally the older the professor gets, the more hands-off their style becomes, but still, that's just a generalization. Focus more on personality and work style fit than age.

If you are concerned about retirement plans etc., the best person to talk to is the professor themself. You don't have to ask it directly (although you could). I'm not sure what stage you are asking about, but a good time is after you've been accepted but before you have made a decision. You could then email or speak to the prof and ask something like, "If I attend this school, I would like to finish my PhD with you as my supervisor. Would you be taking on a PhD student this fall?" (and/or you can ask if they have the time/funding to do so etc.). I think this is a good time for the professor to either directly reveal that they plan on retiring or let you know that they might not be able to supervise you throughout your whole degree and work on an alternate plan with you (e.g. co-supervising).

When I did my MSc (in Canada), I was planning to go elsewhere for a PhD, and my supervisor and I had a chat at the beginning where he said he would likely retire before I would finish my PhD, but that if I changed my mind and really wanted to stay for a PhD, then he would still meet with me and advise me through retirement (he would just not do the other stuff profs have to do). As his only student, this would have been fine with me if I chose to stay. So, it's all a matter of what you prefer/want.

You could potentially ask these questions and have this discussion before applying too, but at this stage, the prof doesn't really know you as well and it might be premature to be making plans without an acceptance offer.

Finally, after you are accepted, it's a good idea to talk to other people in the department (usually this happens as students visit to learn more about the city and life as a student there). You will likely be asked who you would want to work with in every conversation. If not, say that you want to work with Prof. X. See if anyone you talk to has any insight on whether there are retirement plans in place. There are also different retirement policies at each school. For example, at my PhD school, profs can retire with short notice, but there is a financial incentive for them to give 4 years notice of retirement. So, other profs would know. At my MSc school, these plans often come up at the department meetings, which has student reps attending, so both students and profs would know. I wouldn't ask another person outright/directly what Prof X plans are, but often mentioning your desire to work with a prof about to retire might result in someone letting you know about potential retirement.

[dr. t]

This is all good advice, but remember also that, on a very practical level, you need them to be alive in ~7-9 years at the least - a PhD plus one postdoc - to write job letters.

[fuzzylogician]

24 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

This is all good advice, but remember also that, on a very practical level, you need them to be alive in ~7-9 years at the least - a PhD plus one postdoc - to write job letters.

More generally, though, remember this: young people get sick and die, too. It's important to have multiple relationships with people who might write you job letters. I know someone who had to leave academia because their advisor died. This student mostly worked with just this one person in a field where that's pretty normal (a PI leads a group, students collaborate with the PI and other group members, and occasionally with someone from another group). This PI was a big shot and had lots of connections, grant money, power; at the age of 46 they went in for routine surgery, and never came back. The student had their strongest letter taken away, and because they didn't have enough other strong connections, they basically lost their ability to be competitive on the job market. Long story short, instead of rebuilding and investing the not insubstantial amount of time it would take to generate new relationships and new strong letters, the student decided to leave for industry. Not how you want to make that decision, if you ask me. It's never wise to count too much on just one person, whoever they are. 

[dr. t]

While true, it's still important to distinguish possibility and probability for this conversation.

[fuzzylogician]

25 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

While true, it's still important to distinguish possibility and probability for this conversation.

My friend, I hope everything in life goes your way. But it's only wise to plan for eventualities that aren't really all the way out there. You really think no one gets sick, leaves the field, drops off the radar to take care of elderly parents in another state/country or to deal with a problematic marriage, spends time incommunicado in hospital with a sick child, takes their sabbatical very seriously and doesn't read email for a whole semester, etc? You indeed depend on your advisor for easily close to a decade, and if you think it's improbable that one or more of those things will happen over the course of a decade, I'll just say that three of the things I listed happened to my own advisors since I graduated, and none of the others are made up, they're all based on people I know. Shit happens. 

[dr. t]

1 hour ago, fuzzylogician said:

You really think no one gets sick, leaves the field, drops off the radar to take care of elderly parents in another state/country or to deal with a problematic marriage, spends time incommunicado in hospital with a sick child, takes their sabbatical very seriously and doesn't read email for a whole semester, etc?

Of course not, but we were talking about people dropping dead at 40. And again, I don't think this contributes much to the initial point, which is that even if a professor is still taking students at 70 and refuses to retire, it would be unwise to become their student.

Edited June 30, 2017 by telkanuru

[fuzzylogician]

36 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

Of course not, but we were talking about people dropping dead at 40. And again, I don't think this contributes much to the initial point, which is that even if a professor is still taking students at 70 and refuses to retire, it would be unwise to become their student.

Am I confused, or has that point not already been made and affirmed by others? Is there a limit of one point per thread no one's informed me about? What's your objection to me saying that people, in general, should consider having more than one go-to person, 70 or otherwise (the perils of working with someone who is close to retirement age having already been established)? I just don't see why you're objecting. Everyone can take from the conversation what they will. 

[VAZ]

Beyond all that, sometimes I found it very satisfactory working with an elder professor because I would hear a lot of inside stories about the academia or specific persons of fifty even eighty years ago, which is a fascinating history in its own right.

In terms of technology, as an old-school person myself who is indifferent to the digital (history/humanities) stuff, I enjoy very much writing on the blackboard and taking notes on the index cards. (anyone with me?). Plus I'm not that attracted to the "post-socialist era /contemporary history," not in another sixty years I guess when the 1990s some day becomes the history history (or remote history if someone is offended). Maybe I indeed prefer an advisor from a relatively older generation / mind-set?

[TMP]

Every professor is different.  Some simply can't imagine life without academia while others are ready to hang up their tweed jackets and explore the world.  Retirement is a very personal choice.

Your best bets are to:
A) Make sure they're still active in the field-- are they still publishing?  Are they still presenting papers at conferences?  Look for recent conference programs (AHA or your field's major learned societies).  Are they doing service to your field? (This is different from service to the university, which is mandate of all professors)

B ) Ask to e-mail with the current advisees to get a sense of his/her present advising style.  Some professors will be more hands on as they get older (they don't have to do so much to "prove" themselves) while others are more hands off.

C) Ask if s/he is still taking current students and for suggestions whom else you can work with in the department.  In case of departure, you'll want to be able to work with someone whom both of you like.

And always, always have at least 2 people in the department besides the POI whom you can envision working with on your dissertation.  You need multiple mentors.  It takes a village to raise a graduate student.