Social Work Program with Statistics

[42Icarus1914]

Hi, 

This post is in regards to any social work program MSW/PhD with an emphasis on statistics or allows statistical electives. 

I am applying for masters of social work programs this fall. My end goal is to get a PhD in the field and go on to do research. I currently have a very strong quantitative background and was hoping that during my MSW I could expand keep my skills fresh by taking as many electives as I can in the statistics department. 

Now I know that the social work programs have a strict curriculum and only allow for a couple electives but I was wondering if there is any variation between schools.

After doing some research myself, it looks like North Carolina's PhD program has a heavy emphasis on statistics. Unfortunately this does not relate to their MSW program.

Any info/suggestions on how to find this out would be helpful! Currently I am going through the syllabus of the top programs and looking for elective options.

[TheCrow]

Honestly, you're probably better off getting a PhD in a different field and getting permission to earn the MSW as part of that PhD program.

[42Icarus1914]

18 hours ago, TheCrow said:

Honestly, you're probably better off getting a PhD in a different field and getting permission to earn the MSW as part of that PhD program.

Thanks for the advice.

Does that mean I should apply for statistics programs and then once in tell them of my intention? Although I would like to do both, I have a hard time imagining a supervisor in the statistics department willing to take me on as I complete a MSW. Please elaborate!

For reference my application: (Top 30 uni, 3.6 GPA, Several years of research and community experience)

I noticed that you applied to MSW/PhD programs. How competitive are those to get into and what are they looking for?

[TheCrow]

A statistics PhD is for those who want to make original contributions to the field of statistics, such as developing new estimators and such. You will probably have a hard time convincing such programs that your research interests are a good fit.

You might want to consider a PhD in economics, political science, or sociology depending on your research interests. Economics will certainly have the best chance at a good job and the best quantitative training, although it will have the most competitive admissions. Michigan has a joint PhD in social work and economics, but they are the only ones.

I applied straight out of undergraduate and was not admitted to any joint MSW/PhD programs, although I attended a well-ranked master's program with a good amount of funding based on my research interests. What I realized was that there are vast epistemological differences across fields. Frankly, my experience was that certain fields like statistics and economics are based on quality of outcomes, while the individuals in those fields are more likely to have biases against traditionally disadvantaged groups. Fields like social work, education, and theology are basically about paying your dues, not making novel contributions.

I don't think it's unfair to characterize my experience in my master's program as a bunch of busy work that constitutes a hazing process to make you feel like you got your money's worth and are part of the discipline. For the most part, it was going through the motions. There was very little opportunity to take advanced classes from other fields (apparently I was basically the first person to petition out of basic stats + basic research methods, and that was a real struggle by itself), and there was no time to devote to rigorous quantitative classes anyway. The classes we did take did not allow sufficient opportunity to integrate research. Outside of the top group of social work PhDs, it starts to look a lot like lower ranked programs in education and nursing that have begun to offer what can honestly be characterized as fake PhDs: programs that take your money in exchange for an inflated credential, while not actually teaching you to do research (which is the whole point of a PhD).

This field, like education, basically requires a master's degree (read: debt) and having existed long enough in a related role to have paid your debts, regardless of whether you've learned anything. That means research ability is very unlikely to get you into an MSW/PhD program unless you have a master's (which, again, the master's in social work is not research focused). 

I was very clear when I came in that I was interested in policy and research. The faculty had not interest in what I was doing (many not being social workers and having been denied tenure from higher status fields, and others not having published in awhile). I ended up having to find a mentor outside of the program and was actually awarded an extraordinarily large research grant. This made some of the faculty in my program very jealous and upset. I left the program with several good publications - far exceeding the median number of peer-reviewed publications (roughly zero) of those who had finished their PhDs at this top-ranked programs.

I realized that if I wanted to be the kind of scholar that I wanted to be, I would need to attend a PhD program in a different field. The opportunity cost of the PhD is very high, however, and there are increasingly fewer tenure-track positions. If you choose to pursue academia, remember that you don't need a PhD in social work (an MSW + a PhD in a field with better methodological training is probably preferable), and you don't need to be in a social work department to research social welfare or counseling.

I finished the program and took a more quantitative public sector job with good work-life balance where I feel like I really get to have an impact on an everyday basis. Fairly soon my salary will exceed the average for associate professors at 4-year schools, and I plan to continue to publish without going back for the PhD.

Really think about what your goals are and what you want to out of your career. (Disclaimer, of course, that I can't speak for other's experiences at my program or to what other programs are like.)

[TheCrow]

I also realized I didn't answer part of your question. MSW/PhD programs, for the most part, basically exist for a very small number of midcareer professionals in related fields with a master's in a related field.

[42Icarus1914]

1 hour ago, TheCrow said:

A statistics PhD is for those who want to make original contributions to the field of statistics, such as developing new estimators and such. You will probably have a hard time convincing such programs that your research interests are a good fit.

You might want to consider a PhD in economics, political science, or sociology depending on your research interests. Economics will certainly have the best chance at a good job and the best quantitative training, although it will have the most competitive admissions. Michigan has a joint PhD in social work and economics, but they are the only ones.

I applied straight out of undergraduate and was not admitted to any joint MSW/PhD programs, although I attended a well-ranked master's program with a good amount of funding based on my research interests. What I realized was that there are vast epistemological differences across fields. Frankly, my experience was that certain fields like statistics and economics are based on quality of outcomes, while the individuals in those fields are more likely to have biases against traditionally disadvantaged groups. Fields like social work, education, and theology are basically about paying your dues, not making novel contributions.

I don't think it's unfair to characterize my experience in my master's program as a bunch of busy work that constitutes a hazing process to make you feel like you got your money's worth and are part of the discipline. For the most part, it was going through the motions. There was very little opportunity to take advanced classes from other fields (apparently I was basically the first person to petition out of basic stats + basic research methods, and that was a real struggle by itself), and there was no time to devote to rigorous quantitative classes anyway. The classes we did take did not allow sufficient opportunity to integrate research. Outside of the top group of social work PhDs, it starts to look a lot like lower ranked programs in education and nursing that have begun to offer what can honestly be characterized as fake PhDs: programs that take your money in exchange for an inflated credential, while not actually teaching you to do research (which is the whole point of a PhD).

This field, like education, basically requires a master's degree (read: debt) and having existed long enough in a related role to have paid your debts, regardless of whether you've learned anything. That means research ability is very unlikely to get you into an MSW/PhD program unless you have a master's (which, again, the master's in social work is not research focused). 

I was very clear when I came in that I was interested in policy and research. The faculty had not interest in what I was doing (many not being social workers and having been denied tenure from higher status fields, and others not having published in awhile). I ended up having to find a mentor outside of the program and was actually awarded an extraordinarily large research grant. This made some of the faculty in my program very jealous and upset. I left the program with several good publications - far exceeding the median number of peer-reviewed publications (roughly zero) of those who had finished their PhDs at this top-ranked programs.

I realized that if I wanted to be the kind of scholar that I wanted to be, I would need to attend a PhD program in a different field. The opportunity cost of the PhD is very high, however, and there are increasingly fewer tenure-track positions. If you choose to pursue academia, remember that you don't need a PhD in social work (an MSW + a PhD in a field with better methodological training is probably preferable), and you don't need to be in a social work department to research social welfare or counseling.

I finished the program and took a more quantitative public sector job with good work-life balance where I feel like I really get to have an impact on an everyday basis. Fairly soon my salary will exceed the average for associate professors at 4-year schools, and I plan to continue to publish without going back for the PhD.

Really think about what your goals are and what you want to out of your career. (Disclaimer, of course, that I can't speak for other's experiences at my program or to what other programs are like.)

Thanks for sharing your experience. This is very helpful.

As for the MSW/PhD, that is unfortunate.

Your experience in the MSW program is what I feared, your candor is appreciated. I noticed you mentioned that you got funding for your masters, was that an MSW? I was under the impression that you needed to pay out-of-pocket for an MSW. 

My goal is to do research in the field of counseling and social welfare and at the same time have a small clinical practice. My understanding was that getting a PhD in social work would be the best for this (so say my Profs), as a professor can: teach, research and practice. I am also applying for PhD in clinical psych although I have been told that the academic market is even harsher for these positions (and the research interests are slightly different than mine). Thus I am focusing on social work graduate programs. 

Although this is going of topic, but you seem very knowledgeable in this area so I will ask anyways! I know for typical cases getting your MSW at a top school does not matter but does it effect your chance of getting into a top PhD program after? i.e is it worth the cost if you have ambition for a PhD? From what you have said that it seems that that these schools do not do much and it would be better for me to stay at my home school and publish with the prof that I know and then apply for a PhD elsewhere (and possibly not in social work).

I do not have a background in economics or political science but I will look into Michigan's social work PhD programs.

Thanks again!

 

 

 

 

[TheCrow]

Yes, my degree was an MSW. Higher education financing is complicated and based on my experience, people in this forum seem to make blanket assumptions (like public schools are always more expensive). Columbia and USC seem to bury everyone in debt, but some of the other schools do have more money than they might admit. I got about 2/3rds from the school, and then I covered the rest with my research grant from my second year. 

I would apply to a number of fields and programs and see what the outcomes are. Also consider that you may be able to ask for more money at private schools based on other offers.

I didn't realize your interests were clinical - economics and political science certainly make no sense then. I don't have any knowledge to comment on clinical psych hiring. I would be surprised if the market were worse for them, although I'm sure admissions is much more competitive.

There's another thread somewhere hard about "Insights from a professor" that may address many of your questions, and that faculty member suggests going somewhere that's affordable even if it's not brand name. One of the caveats though is that even though you might be able to get a PhD in social work without a master's in social work, it will make it very, very difficult to get a faculty position because you won't meet CSWE's requirement to teach the practices courses (which is a master's in social work and two years of post-MSW experience). I would consider applying to other relevant field's PhD and integrating the MSW into the degree during your studies on a part-time or extended basis. If you go for an MSW first, you may find the debt and pay elsewhere to keep you from continuing along your path and the MSW will probably not be relevant to a PhD.