Rutgers PhD or MA/Postbac and reapply?

[lucan]

Hey guys,

This board has been very helpful in the past few weeks and I'd appreciate all the advice I can get about my current situation.

Here are three facts about me:

-I'm interested in studying 1) Latin literature of the silver period, and 2) Near Eastern and South Asian influences on early Greek literature.

-I would like to become a tenured professor at a good liberal arts college or research university (need not be Harvard...).

-I have been accepted into a funded PhD program at Rutgers. I applied to 9 other schools, but have only heard back from one of them (rejected from Cornell). Since many of these have already notified, I am expecting a wave of official rejections soon. I do not feel bitter about this at all. I know that some of my friends will get in nowhere and that I should be happy to get into a funded PhD program right out of undergrad.

My question is: given my goals, is it worth attending Rutgers this fall and finishing my PhD or should I attend a Post-Bac or MA (I applied to Vanderbilt) and reapply in order to try to get into a better program? By "better" I don't mean that Rutgers is bad, but that classics programs traditionally counted in the "top 10" place their graduates in higher-ranked schools. Is it crucial to get into one of these the top 10 programs? Or does it matter more what I do at the program I attend?

By the way, I visited Rutgers and liked the faculty very much.

I'm a bit confused about this. Any thoughts?

[monsoonmaiden]

Hey guys,

This board has been very helpful in the past few weeks and I'd appreciate all the advice I can get about my current situation.

Here are three facts about me:

-I'm interested in studying 1) Latin literature of the silver period, and 2) Near Eastern and South Asian influences on early Greek literature.

-I would like to become a tenured professor at a good liberal arts college or research university (need not be Harvard...).

-I have been accepted into a funded PhD program at Rutgers. I applied to 9 other schools, but have only heard back from one of them (rejected from Cornell). Since many of these have already notified, I am expecting a wave of official rejections soon. I do not feel bitter about this at all. I know that some of my friends will get in nowhere and that I should be happy to get into a funded PhD program right out of undergrad.

My question is: given my goals, is it worth attending Rutgers this fall and finishing my PhD or should I attend a Post-Bac or MA (I applied to Vanderbilt) and reapply in order to try to get into a better program? By "better" I don't mean that Rutgers is bad, but that classics programs traditionally counted in the "top 10" place their graduates in higher-ranked schools. Is it crucial to get into one of these the top 10 programs? Or does it matter more what I do at the program I attend?

By the way, I visited Rutgers and liked the faculty very much.

I'm a bit confused about this. Any thoughts?

Lucan,

I'll chip in my two cents, but please keep in mind that I haven't gone through a PhD program or its hiring process yet, this is just from patterns I've seen and things I've heard, so take this with a grain of salt, I suppose. First of all, congrats on getting in/getting funded, etc! This year seems to be an exceptionally dismal one, so bravo! If your goals are to teach at a liberal arts school, and you are funded at Rutgers, like the faculty, etc. I would say to go for Rutgers. What I've heard is that you often end up getting placed for teaching in a school that is a tier down from where you were before. How true that is, I can't be sure, but at my current research I university, most of the professors do have either Ivy or top 10 school degrees (or the schools were top 10 at least when *they* got their degrees), and at the few top liberal arts college I've checked, most of their faculty also hold similar Ivy-type degrees. However, like I said, if your goal is to teach at a smaller school that may be a lesser known liberal arts school, Rutgers is probably fine.

If, however, you want to teach at a top liberal arts school like Oberlin or the Claremont Colleges (again, just examples I've looked up), then you'd want to probably do the M.A. and reapply. However, in reapplying, of course you inherently take the same risk everyone does every year they apply: you may not get into your top school, and then you'd be in the same position you are now, but possibly without an acceptance or funding at all.

That probably doesn't clarify anything, but good luck!

[LateAntique]

I would speak with professors at your school about this. I've definitely heard the "one tier (or more) down" hiring rule, at least straight out of your Ph.D. I know some Rutgers graduates teaching at big state school programs (John Finamore comes to mind at U of Iowa - and he's pretty brilliant). If one in the hand is really worth two in the bush at this point, I'd take the Rutgers admit (if you would be happy there). If you're going to always be thinking "What if", I say do the MA or Post-Bacc and reapply. Of course, you run the risk of not getting in somewhere after doing the MA or post-bacc, and that puts you in an odd situation. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees here, so these are difficult waters to navigate.

[ogulnia]

Hi Lucan,

FWIW, I seem to remember that Rutgers participates in a consortium/exchange that allows students to take courses at other schools in the area (e.g. Princeton, NYU, Columbia), which might help you to build contacts and expose you to other scholars than those just at Rutgers. And isn't Matthew Fox (who's just published a new translation of your namesake) there?

If you like the school and think you would have someone there to guide you through a dissertation, I see no reason not to take a fully-funded PhD offer now. Sometimes a smaller program can work out better in the end when it comes to placement -- Princeton/Harvard may have name caché, but they also have 4-5 students to get jobs for each year, which makes it hard to stand out. Can you ask Rutgers about their success rate for PhD grads?

But I agree, check with your professors for advice.

Good luck (and congrats!)

Ogulnia

[johndiligent]

Hi Lucan,

FWIW, I seem to remember that Rutgers participates in a consortium/exchange that allows students to take courses at other schools in the area (e.g. Princeton, NYU, Columbia), which might help you to build contacts and expose you to other scholars than those just at Rutgers. And isn't Matthew Fox (who's just published a new translation of your namesake) there?

If you like the school and think you would have someone there to guide you through a dissertation, I see no reason not to take a fully-funded PhD offer now. Sometimes a smaller program can work out better in the end when it comes to placement -- Princeton/Harvard may have name caché, but they also have 4-5 students to get jobs for each year, which makes it hard to stand out. Can you ask Rutgers about their success rate for PhD grads?

But I agree, check with your professors for advice.

Good luck (and congrats!)

Ogulnia

I second all of this. Get some placement stats from Rutgers and make your decision from there.

[current_grad]

Hi Lucan,

Firstly, congratulations on receiving a funded offer! In speaking with friends at other programs, I know that this has been an abominable year to be applying to PhD programs. A lot of programs are facing stiff budget cuts, and thus they are slashing cohort sizes dramatically. Rutgers is a rather strong program, and they would not have extended an offer to you if they did not think that you would make an excellent fit for their program. The fact that you also liked the program is a good indication that Rutgers' instincts were correct. This being said, here are a couple of things that I would encourage you to keep in mind:

1.) Graduate school is a 5-6 year commitment. It is not simply a stepping-stone to becoming a professor. It is 6 years of your life -- 6 wonderful, enjoyable, stimulating years. Consequently, you want to be somewhere that makes you happy. Harvard may be Harvard, but some people are miserable for 6 years in Cambridge. You are not going to do your best work when you are unhappy on most days. Job placement is a relative statistic -- students are just as responsible for getting themselves jobs as professors are, and a program that is going to equip you well to be a teacher, that is going to give you the freedom and the environment (i.e. happiness factor) to do the best work you can do is the program where you want to end up.

2.) ONLY do the post-bac if your language preparation is lacking. If you think that another year of Greek and/or Latin would have earned you a few more acceptances, then a post-bac might be advisable. I know both Penn and Georgetown have had tremendous success in placing students into top grad programs, but I think it would be a waste of your time and money to enroll in a post-bac if you don't need it. An MA is another matter, especially if you were to receive a funded offer from Vanderbilt. I know Vandy has also had a lot of success placing candidates. If you don't get a funded offer, however, then I can't believe it would be worth it to go into debt for two years, only to be faced with the uncertainty of applying to PhD programs again.

3.) While this shouldn't necessarily be a deciding factor, I believe Rutgers is a program where you have to earn an MA before you get your PhD. As a result, you could always apply to transfer out after you get the MA. Obviously you don't want to enter into a program already thinking you are going to leave it, but you would have the potential flexibility to look elsewhere if you ultimately decided that Rutgers was not the ideal fit for you. Nevertheless, as somebody else pointed out, Rutgers participates in this amazing collaboration with Princeton, Columbia, CUNY, NYU, and others that would allow you to take classes at any of those programs. This means there is always an opportunity for you to establish relationships with professors at other programs -- professors who could ultimately be on your dissertation committee, and thus other professors who could write on your behalf when it comes time to apply for jobs.

So, go ahead and chat with Rutgers about job placement if that is your biggest anxiety. Talk to your current professors. Everybody will have their own opinion, but ultimately yours is the only one that matters. Remember that you do not have to make a commitment one way or another until April 15. Wait to hear back from Vanderbilt. And trust your gut. For what it's worth, I rolled the dice three years ago and turned down a fully funded program that was on par with Rutgers to do a funded Master's in the UK. I reapplied after completing the Master's, and I had my pick of programs. However, I turned down my initial offer because I wasn't sure the program I had been accepted into would be a good fit for me. If I had liked the program more, things might have turned out differently.

Good luck, and don't forget to bask in the glory of your acceptance. Once you start your PhD, it will be a little while before people are fawning all over you again.

[lucan]

Thank you all for the excellent and thoughtful advice. I read through these responses carefully and will certainly email the DGS today to ask for placement statistics. Many of you also pointed out the Columbia-NYU-Rutgers-Princeton exchange. You're right -- I hadn't thought enough about that. I will wait for the Vanderbilt result and take it from there.

I have one additional question (and this is something I'll also be asking my own professors). Would I be hurting or helping my chances of securing a tenure-track position if I choose to write a dissertation on Near Eastern influences on Greek literature? The topic is much less popular in the States than it is in the UK, and at the moment only a few scholars are deeply invested in this research, meaning it will be hard to put together a dissertation committee. On the other hand, it seems like an expanded view of classical antiquity is important and in line with some trends in modern scholarship (multiculturalism).

Any thoughts on this question?

Thanks again to everyone for their generous help.

[nike of samothrace]

Hi Lucan,

I have a couple of things that I can add, based on my experience as a previous Rutgers applicant & acceptee. First, a dear friend of mine is an alum of the program - she not only had glowing things to say about the program, but she was placed in a tenure-track position right out of graduation (a place where she is very happy). At the APA/AIA meetings the year I applied, I met several Rutgers grad students and alums, all of whom had similarly glowing things to say - one of whom even said that, if he had to do it all over again, he would go nowhere else. I've never seen another school with such happy students, which is a huge plus for this program. Additionally, I met with the then-head of the department - Corey Brennan, who is currently director of the AAR - who was phenomenal. Finally, as he told me, at that time they had a 100% placement rate for their graduates, which is unheard of. I believe the program is small enough that they are able to give the support of the entire faculty (should one earn it!) when they put a candidate on the market - again, something that is unheard of, and really invaluable.

I decided to go elsewhere, but only because my own subfield is not truly represented at Rutgers and I found a better fit - but this was specific to my research and situation. Your interests are a much better fit than mine ever would have been!

I have no investment in Rutgers - I just had such a lovely experience with them, from application to acceptance, and even to today, that I wanted to pass it on. I haven't been as impressed with another program through their application process. Those affiliated truly do seem to love it.

Hope the right decision for you is an easy one to come to!

[lucan]

Got an NYU acceptance! How would you guys rate NYU's program as compared to Rutgers (for Latin literature of the silver period)?

[Ardea]

I have one additional question (and this is something I'll also be asking my own professors). Would I be hurting or helping my chances of securing a tenure-track position if I choose to write a dissertation on Near Eastern influences on Greek literature? The topic is much less popular in the States than it is in the UK, and at the moment only a few scholars are deeply invested in this research, meaning it will be hard to put together a dissertation committee. On the other hand, it seems like an expanded view of classical antiquity is important and in line with some trends in modern scholarship (multiculturalism).

Something along the lines of M.L. West and Walter Burkert? I think that could be a very interesting dissertation.

I'm not at the dissertation stage yet either, but I would imagine it's preferable to pick a dissertation that everyone is NOT doing. Easier to stand out that way, no? I suspect (or hope) it's an area that's going to get more attention, at least.

[shadow]

Got an NYU acceptance! How would you guys rate NYU's program as compared to Rutgers (for Latin literature of the silver period)?

If you go to NYU (or even Rutgers) you can likely take classes at ISAW (Institute for the Study of the Ancient World), which very much encourages looking cross culturally. They also have seemed to offer a number of Near Eastern classes intended to do that.

I don't have an opinion about any of these programs, but I wanted to point out ISAW since it is relatively new.