English Programs: MA before PhD? Please advise...

[Dr. Old Bill]

I don't think your age or absence from school should be feared - that will only precipitate that which you fear.  Under NO circumstances should you discuss yourself from point of view of age, time out of school, etc.  (Please see my first point). 

 

I very respectfully disagree with this for a couple of reasons (though recognize that these are all opinions, so YMMV).

 

I think it's unrealistic not to think that there is going to be some concern on the part of various adcomms about your age. As someone who is in his mid-thirties, I basically live this scenario, and while there's not much I can do about it, it is worth keeping in mind. In my case, I don't feel that drawing attention to my age is necessary or helpful, since I'm currently enrolled in a program, making my education demonstrably fresh and recent. Contrast this with grades from ten years ago, when you were probably in your mid-twenties...and how much has time erased? I'm thinking of this from an adcomm standpoint, by the way. Sentimentally, I think anyone and everyone should be considered for all programs, but realistically, there are some valid concerns that will be felt on the part of adcomm members.

 

This segues into the second reason: they will see the gap, and they will wonder about it. To my mind, there is no question about it: they'll notice. And because they'll notice, you'll need to say something in your SOP that explains your circumstances. Normally I would advise against drawing attention to age and unusual circumstances, but here's the thing: your supporting information will already draw attention to those things. The good news, however, is that you can almost certainly "spin" it into a positive -- something that is appealing to an adcomm. I don't know many of your circumstances, but like I said in that monstrous post above, your background in writing and editing during your post-M.A. life is surely something that can be framed in a positive way. I can imagine SOP lines now, like "Through several years of working closely with editing texts, I gradually realized my intense interest in digging deeper into the written word, which explains why..." etc. etc. You get the idea. But the bottom line is that in your case, I think it needs to be addressed head-on, or else the lingering questions in the minds of the adcomms could hurt your application chances.

 

You still have time to get all the assorted materials together before the deadlines start popping up in December. You'll have to get on it soon, however. The process takes a lot longer than it might appear on paper.

[bbuoy10]

Thanks, everyone. Your answers were incredibly helpful. I've spent the last few hours looking at grad program requirements, deadlines, funding, etc. So my brain is a bit fried. 

 

I personally feel like I need to take a few classes so I can get current LORs and get my brain back in critical thinking mode. I'm sure I may have to prepare for 'career student' and, possibly, age bias. I'm basically someone who should have pursued the academic route out of undergrad as my director suggested, but for a variety of reasons I did not. However, I've led a very interesting life since undergrad (living abroad, traveling internationally for work, raising a child, etc.), so I'll try to emphasize that in my SOP or personal statement. I agree with Wyatt's Torch. I think I have to address my time out of school. 

 

I'm interested in Ethnic Literature, specifically African-American lit. My BA is from an HBCU (Historically Black College/University), and my senior thesis was on Toni Morrison (which was actually published in a teeny-tiny scholarly journal). So I'm not a totally 'left-field' candidate. 

 

My state university's flagship school allows non-degree seeking students to take graduate classes. That could be an option and potentially a way into either their MA and/or PhD programs. I'd have to do some more digging to see if I can get into a class this fall, but I doubt if I'll be able to get in until winter or spring. And, of course, application deadlines are in December/January. But I'm fairly certain I can take upper-level undergrad classes online this fall at another state school (no grad program in English). I might be able to use my undergrad thesis as my writing sample, but it's so old, I'm tempted to just write something fresh. 

 

Yes, receiving funding would be ideal but if worse comes to worse, I have a gainfully employed spouse who is willing to support me for a bit. 

 

I feel like getting all of this done in 3-4 months might be doable, but will take an insane amount of work with no guarantee that I won't be doing it all over again next year. But I hate the idea of wasting more time before I start a program. I really would like to get going. So going straight into a PhD program would be perfect. 

[Dr. Old Bill]

I definitely think you can do it, based on what you've described. Time will be a big factor here, but if you're on the ball, you can get it done. If you can recycle some (if not all) of that published article on Toni Morrison, you've got one of the most time-consuming parts out of the way. And you certainly won't be lacking for material to write in your SOP. Try not to make it too personal, but in your case, they'll be interested in your journey. And it sounds like you have had an interesting journey, so be sure to give them a few tidbits. For the record, prior to entering undergrad a few years ago at the age of 32, I had an interesting enough life as well. I have regrets for not getting a degree earlier, of course, but I don't feel any kind of shame about it, that's for sure. So I know exactly where you're coming from. It just happens that my gap came before undergrad, and yours came after.

 

One thought: could you perhaps audit a local course or two? Maybe identify a local professor or two that have some mutual research interests as your own, then reach out to them via email and see if they'd be amenable to meeting in person (possibly), or just discuss your plans. Be open about your background and your future hopes, and they'll usually be receptive.

 

I don't think it's an insane amount of work to do, by the way. It's definitely doable. In fact, I'm willing to bet that half (or more) of all applicants to grad school have yet to truly start the process. It's not ideal, of course, but it's doable. Honestly, the only real obstacle I see is finding LOR writers. But since you have that published article under your belt, you can probably make use of it -- send it to any well-regarded or academic person you know. It will give them a strong sense of your writing ability, enough to be able to comment on your suitability for a given program. And one important thing that I haven't mentioned yet is that an LOR doesn't need to be glowing, usually (though it doesn't hurt). It just has to be positive. Different programs place different weight on LORs in general.

 

If you do decide to go down this path, I'd be happy to look over your materials for you. Just PM me if and when you decide.

 

Good luck!

[bbuoy10]

Here's one more thought I just had: I wonder if it's better to try to get into an MA program at a decent school and then apply to a PhD program at a top school. Right now, I doubt I have what it takes to be competitive at one of those universities.   

[bbuoy10]

Wyatt's Torch, those are great ideas. 

 

And thanks for the offer to help. Let me get to work first.

[jhefflol]

I'm going to give my 2 cents before reading the rest of the replies, so I apologize if this has been repeated.

 

When I was finishing up my undergrad, I was advised to go to a MA program versus a PhD because I had only a general idea of what kind of scholarship I wanted to produce. I wanted to research the Early Modern period in England, but beyond that I had no idea. I'm glad I got my MA because this gave me time to come up with an actual dissertation proposal and research the topic to see what kind of scholarship has been done on my topic. Beyond this, I have improved my academic writing skills and have learned how to participate in academia.

 

If you feel ready to get your PhD straightaway, do so. If you know what you want to research intensely then go ahead. Otherwise, take the "buffer" MA option and explore some ideas a bit more until you know what you want to research.

 

(Please excuse any typos and if this doesn't make sense, I apologize. I have been away and working outside since 6 am).

[jhefflol]

Oh snap, I didn't even realize this was from 2008. I'm going to leave my reply in case it helps anyone and I'm going to sort through the comments after my nap. 

[bbuoy10]

Jhefflol, the thread began in 2008, but I decided to revive it a few days ago instead of starting a new thread (although perhaps I should have). So your comments did not go to waste. You'll see my situation when you go through the posts. After reading through posts on this forum and looking at degree requirements, I'm leaning towards applying to an MA program first. I'm going to audit a class or two as well in the meantime.

[jhefflol]

Well good luck to you! I hope everything works out in your favor!

[lifealive]

I'm someone who did two MAs before getting into a PhD program--first in a "studies" type discipline and another in English. To be frank, getting a second MA was not my first choice. I applied to a mixture of PhD and MA programs, and I had hoped to sail right along into a PhD program. However, my MA (in the non-English field) was just not adequate preparation, and all PhD programs turned me down. I got offers from two funded MA programs and decided to take one of them. I had also been away from school for too long, though not that long (four years out of my master's and six out of undergrad), and to be honest, I did find that the time away had also made me "stale." In the end, I felt that my only way to be more "current" was to do the second MA, get an updated writing sample out of it, and get letter writers who could speak more specifically to my strengths.

 

I thought about taking a class as a way to strengthen my application profile, but all the universities in my area were expensive, and I didn't know what kind of connection I'd be able to make in one semester. (Auditing a class isn't a terrible idea, but keep in mind that this professor will have many actual enrolled students that he or she will be writing LORs for, and he or she will be much more invested in these students' success since they reflect directly on that program.)

 

After my second MA, I was able to get into a PhD program, but it was very difficult. I was rejected from all the topflight PhD programs, and part of me still does wonder if my unusual trajectory and old age (30) took me out of the running. (I think that Ivies in particular really like "traditional" candidates.) But I was able to get into a relatively decent program and I've done well there. Now that I'm nearing the end of my PhD, it doesn't seem to matter that much that I had to get a second MA.
 

So I would encourage to apply to both MAs and PhDs, and apply VERY WIDELY. Make sure the MA programs you apply to are funded. Keep in mind that a second MA will probably not do you any favors in getting into an elite PhD program ... but remind yourself that any program that would turn you down because you have two MAs probably would turn you down anyway for being older or more nontraditional or "career student."

[lifealive]

Funded M.A. programs exist, of course, but they are almost as competitive as funded Ph.D.s., and fewer and farther between.

 

This isn't necessarily true. Funded MA programs are not quite as competitive as PhDs, and they actually aren't that rare, even in today's academic climate. Many of them are located in unexciting places, though (out in the Midwest or West or South), so I think they tend to get overlooked. But just off the top of my head and with a basic google search I was able to find funded MAs at places like U of Kansas, U of Nebraska, Michigan State, Texas AM, and Ohio U. I'm sure I could find many more if I continued looking.

[xolo]

I very respectfully disagree with this for a couple of reasons (though recognize that these are all opinions, so YMMV).

 

I think it's unrealistic not to think that there is going to be some concern on the part of various adcomms about your age. As someone who is in his mid-thirties, I basically live this scenario, and while there's not much I can do about it, it is worth keeping in mind. In my case, I don't feel that drawing attention to my age is necessary or helpful, since I'm currently enrolled in a program, making my education demonstrably fresh and recent. Contrast this with grades from ten years ago, when you were probably in your mid-twenties...and how much has time erased? I'm thinking of this from an adcomm standpoint, by the way. Sentimentally, I think anyone and everyone should be considered for all programs, but realistically, there are some valid concerns that will be felt on the part of adcomm members.

 

This segues into the second reason: they will see the gap, and they will wonder about it. To my mind, there is no question about it: they'll notice. And because they'll notice, you'll need to say something in your SOP that explains your circumstances. Normally I would advise against drawing attention to age and unusual circumstances, but here's the thing: your supporting information will already draw attention to those things. The good news, however, is that you can almost certainly "spin" it into a positive -- something that is appealing to an adcomm. I don't know many of your circumstances, but like I said in that monstrous post above, your background in writing and editing during your post-M.A. life is surely something that can be framed in a positive way. I can imagine SOP lines now, like "Through several years of working closely with editing texts, I gradually realized my intense interest in digging deeper into the written word, which explains why..." etc. etc. You get the idea. But the bottom line is that in your case, I think it needs to be addressed head-on, or else the lingering questions in the minds of the adcomms could hurt your application chances.

 

You still have time to get all the assorted materials together before the deadlines start popping up in December. You'll have to get on it soon, however. The process takes a lot longer than it might appear on paper.

 

I don't think we disagree, just the opposite.

[wetheplants]

On the off chance that people are still responding to this thread, here's my situation. I'm interested in getting a PhD, but I've been out of school (a 'mature' student) for many years. I have a BA in English and an MA in Liberal Studies, which I received in 2005. I'm wondering if I should work on an MA in English since:

 

1) My other master's was not in English.

 

2) It's been almost 10 years since I earned my last degree.

 

3) I don't have a recent writing sample. 

 

4) Much of my real-life work experience involves writing or editing, but I don't have any teaching experience. 

 

PhD programs are, obviously, competitive. So although I'd rather not spend more time in school before I actually get to the doctoral level, it might be in my best interest. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks. 

So this might be a bit of a long shot, but how about applying to schools in the UK? You have to apply for an MA there first, they won't let you apply for PhD programs without one. 

Funding IS scarce, but if you apply early enough you can have a shot at some of the big scholarships for US students. (I know I missed the deadline for Cambridge's funding. Their apps are due in by like the end of January, and their big American scholarship is due mid-October. I think they count on not too many people being ready for that.) Or you could also apply for a Fullbright and see how that goes! I believe they usually offer fully funded opportunities. Maybe you can make an interesting case for yourself since you've been out of school for so long.

So it's certainly not a given, but if you get in, you can do a one year MA, get some of the basic skills under  your belt, make your connections, and then apply to go into the PhD program, which is only three years. 

So if you're willing to spend a little effort gambling on the funding, you could come out of it with a 4 year PhD track, and a MA first. 

[lyonessrampant]

Unless the Dphil comes from Ox-bridge (or UToronto if you go north), you'll find it very difficult to get a TT job in the US system with a non-US degree.  There are exceptions, of course, but the general advice is to do the doctorate degree in the US if you want to teach in the US.  An Mphil abroad is a different story, though funding is quite a bit more difficult to secure there than at funded MAs here.  

[Kdinnienem]

I am graduating with my BA this spring, and applied to several dual MA/PhD programs.  Was just notified by Ohio State that I'm waitlisted, but for just the PhD program.  I'm wondering why they would not want me to do the dual program but instead go straight to the PhD.  I'm also wondering how not getting an MA could impact my career plans- I want to teach at the college level.  

[unræd]

1 hour ago, Kdinnienem said:

I am graduating with my BA this spring, and applied to several dual MA/PhD programs.  Was just notified by Ohio State that I'm waitlisted, but for just the PhD program.  I'm wondering why they would not want me to do the dual program but instead go straight to the PhD.  I'm also wondering how not getting an MA could impact my career plans- I want to teach at the college level.  

It is a dual MA/PhD program at OSU, but precisely because it’s a dual program and there’s no separate terminal MA, it’s often spoken of as (and the results portal treats it as, if I recall correctly?) just the PhD program.

That said, many programs (but not OSU!) don’t grant Masters on the way to the PhD, even for students entering with BAs. Assuming you’re talking standard lit teaching jobs, there is no difference on the market — insert boilerplate warning here about absolutely no one getting a job no matter how many degrees they have — between going on it w/ just a PhD vs. an MA and a PhD in the same subject: the PhD is a terminal degree that assumes the competencies of the other.

There are more wrinkles if you’re talking about UK PhDs (or other programs that deemphasize teaching, which is not OSU) or certain kinds of institutions that might like people w/ only MAs for other reasons, but broadly speaking, anyone who would hire an MA/PhD would also hire a PhD.

But you can always shoot the DGS an email to clarify!

Edited January 31, 2018 by unræd