Accepting a job from my other advisor without offending my main advisor

[Hope.for.the.best]

Finally, I am submitting my PhD dissertation in less than two days! I am very thankful for everyone here who supported me through the stress and anxiety over the journey. At some points, I did feel that I was going crazy!

 

Anyway, it is time for a good break, and worrying about employment! I am lucky that one of my advisors (let’s call him B) has funding. He can and will hire me, although I will still need to go through the formal application process, because the department head has to approve it. B has always indicated that he wishes me to work for him, and he is very good friend with the head, so I am basically getting the job. In the unlikely event that I don’t get it, B will refer me to someone else. However, I will need to carefully consider how I should break the news to my main advisor (A). Without going into many details, A somehow “broke up” with B when they, and my co-advisor (C), discussed whether I should finish my dissertation before working on more experiments. A actually wanted me to do that experiment that may get me to publish in Cell. A pretended that he was on my side, but persuaded C very hard that I should do the experiment. C is very senior, so she “ordered” me to do that experiment. You know, at that time, I was struggling to finish my dissertation, so that gave me hell lot of anxiety. When B learnt that I was under a lot of stress, he stood up for me immediately. In the end, 3 of them agreed with dissertation first.

 

The situation became difficult when A’s funding ran out, and all his 4 applications were unsuccessful. That means that experiment was vital for him to publish the paper as a PI. On the other hand, B was granted another funding on top of his current one, so he has all the resources to take over my project and the manuscript. Since then, A had an exceptionally slow turnaround time of my dissertation drafts. Something that he could normally finish in a week or two took more than a month. I was always polite and asked when I could expect my drafts, but he became increasingly impatient with me. On a few occasions, he even “played” me, i.e. I went to the office as indicated, but I could not see him nor my drafts! He even yelled at me once and called B names. I brought that up to C, and C resolved the whole thing perfectly. C asked me to work for A right after I submitted my dissertation, and up until I defend, to complete my manuscript, as well as “some” experiments for A, so I can get another manuscript with my name. That way, A can remain the PI of my project when I submit the manuscript. However, my paid would be very low because A and C together have very little money left. It would be something like my PhD studentship, possibly even lower. The reason why I typed the some with apostrophes is that they will definitely ask me to do more than indicated. That’s my knowledge after working for them for so many years. That extra manuscript will have my name anyway, because I have contributed. To me, working for them would only make a difference between a second or third author, which is not something that I care the most. I gave a smart reply that I would think about that, and my priority was to get the dissertation done. Since then, A was as proactive as before to help me finish.

 

B can offer me a full-time position, and I am allowed to start after mid-January. That is way more attractive than what A and C can offer: minimal amount of money for only a month starting from early January, but workload is full-time. I know in my head that the best solution is to help A and C out while working for B. B is understanding, and he will be happy with me spending a bit of time to tidy up the loose ends with A and C.  It also means that I do not need to be pressurised by them to complete a lot of work within a short time. Other than that, do you guys have any good suggestions to properly navigate the tensed relationship between A and B? Note that A has clearly expressed that he hates B, but B has never done so. I know my job is not to sort that out for them, but at least I need to deal with that with caution, so that their conflict does not get into the way of my work. You may find my story hard to believe, as a professional academic is not supposed to act like A; I have to say that A is very childish!

 

Thanks for your advice.

[TakeruK]

Congratulations on submitting!

11 hours ago, Hope.for.the.best said:

I know in my head that the best solution is to help A and C out while working for B. B is understanding, and he will be happy with me spending a bit of time to tidy up the loose ends with A and C.  It also means that I do not need to be pressurised by them to complete a lot of work within a short time. Other than that, do you guys have any good suggestions to properly navigate the tensed relationship between A and B? Note that A has clearly expressed that he hates B, but B has never done so. I know my job is not to sort that out for them, but at least I need to deal with that with caution, so that their conflict does not get into the way of my work. You may find my story hard to believe, as a professional academic is not supposed to act like A; I have to say that A is very childish!

How much do you need A and C after you graduate? What are your long term plans?

If you don't plan on needing references from A or C in the long term, I think it's probably time for you to "break up" with A and C as well. Why add even more stress to your life? You don't need to "help out" A or C at all, unless that is something you really want to do. Just focus on your work with B, it's a full time job. I think taking a full time job with B and also doing work for A/C in your spare time is going to be a lot of stress!

On the other hand, if you really do want to work with A/C or if you will need for A to say nice things about you in the future, maybe you can find a compromise. You could first talk to B for advice on how to "break the news" to A in case they have some insight or knowledge that you don't know about. I would say that usually when faculty squabble and fight, the students don't know the full story.

If you do decide to continue your work with A for whatever reason, make sure you are entering an agreement as equals/colleagues. It sounds like you have said C "ordered" you to work with A but there is no reason for you to enter this type of arrangement when you have a good job offer from B. I would wait until after A and C have no more power over you in terms of your degree. At North American schools, the steps to graduation are usually:

1. Submit (draft) dissertation
2. Defend
3. Submit final dissertation (this may or may not require your advisor's approval, depending on the school policies and the result of your defense)

When you say "submit" in two days, I'm not sure you mean Step 1 or Step 3. In any case, I think the best time to tell A that you will be working full time for B is after Step 3, unless your school/defense results allows you to submit the final dissertation without any further approval from A or C required. If you are only at Step 1 and the defense is not until way later, then perhaps you should talk to B to see if you can start a little later. If the defense is not until much later then my advice may not apply! I originally write this thinking you are at Step 3.

Then, when you are no longer in a position where you need A/C for anything, you can discuss the next steps. You should tell A that you have an offer from B and that you want to take that position. You can then bring up finishing up the projects with A. But now, you don't owe them anything and A/C will have to offer you a fair deal if they want your time. You said that you don't (rightly so) care about 2nd vs 3rd author, so they need to offer you something better for you to continue working for them. I think one fair deal is to: determine (fairly) how long you will work with A on their project. Then, ask if B is willing to delay your start position with him by that amount of time. Then, tell A that you will be willing to delay your job with B to work on the project with A for exactly X months if they can pay you what B is offering (or, if they at least offer you a fair wage instead of "less than your PhD studentship").

In my opinion, having been in situation with overly demanding supervisors, the things I would want the most out of this kind of relationship is 1) fair pay and 2) fixed time contract. You agree to work with A for exactly X months and after that, he's on his own to finish the project. You can move onto your new job with B. Ideally, you finish the experiments for A in the fixed time and everyone wins, but if not, then you aren't stuck being in the middle for the entire time working for B.

Again, you don't even have to continue working for A, but if you did want to, my advice is to ensure you are coming into it as equals not as supervisor/student because you're not a student any more. Also, B sounds like a good supporter of you so make sure they are okay with all of this. If they don't want to delay their project with you then you can just cite that and decline continuing work with A.

[Hope.for.the.best]

Thank you for going through the long story and your advice, TakeruK! 

I am in step 1 of the graduation phase. It is very difficult to say how much I need A and C after I graduate, but I may need them to give me reference. According to my school's policy, once my advisors approve that I can submit, they no longer have any actual power on my graduation. From this point onwards, it is the examiners and the school to decide if I can graduate. One thing though, if examiners suggest any revision, A, as the main advisor, has to confirm that he sights the changes before I can confer my PhD. I am 100% sure that my examiners will ask for revision; it's just a matter of minor or major. Given A's bad reaction towards B, I am concerned that he will intentionally delay that. A is aggressive towards B; he always tries to disagree with B's suggestion on my dissertation drafts. B, however, remains gentle and professional. He is happy to compromise with A whenever possible. One important thing though: B has no knowledge of what A did to me, and that has something to do with him. I only told C because A and C have very good relationships. Turned out, C alleviated the situation by asking me to work for A. If I told B the whole drama, I might elicit big fight between A and B, which I would have suffered more. Well, I kept records of what A did to me, because I considered bringing that up to the school. If A decides to play me again, I have all the evidence to report it to B and the school. A will lose his professional reputation as a result. Although the situation is in favour of me, I don't want things to get to that state. 

7 hours ago, TakeruK said:

Again, you don't even have to continue working for A, but if you did want to, my advice is to ensure you are coming into it as equals not as supervisor/student because you're not a student any more. Also, B sounds like a good supporter of you so make sure they are okay with all of this. If they don't want to delay their project with you then you can just cite that and decline continuing work with A.

You know, I still need to get through the formal application process before B can give me a formal offer. My chance is over 95%, but I cannot assume that I get the place before that. Otherwise, I can break the news to A and C, and break up with them, without any worries. C is not the sort of nasty person like A, and I know she will be okay with me working for B. In fact, she would be happy that I am proactive in my career. A and C will only hire me until I defend, but I don't wish to work for them anymore, because they will take advantage of me for sure. I can negotiate with them what to do, but that is useless. They confirmed to the school that I finished all my experiments and I could write my dissertation, but they still asked for more after that. So I don't trust them. I can foresee that B's offer will come some time in that waiting month. Why not accept B's offer before dealing with their loose ends? I will have to consult B, but I am almost certain that B will agree, as long as I prioritise his work. If I get hired by B, helping out A and C will be out of courtesy.  It is up to me how much I help them, so it is less stressful than working for A and C before starting with B. A himself can finish the experiments for his project; it will just take a longer time.

A and C had a student who "promised" to help out with some experiments after her PhD, but she disappeared immediately when she got a job! She never came back for them. I am planning to do the same, because they take my help for granted, without considering how pressurised it has been! 

[TakeruK]

Hmm okay, thanks for the extra details.

I agree with you that even though you are 95% sure of the job with B, you can't count  on it until it's an offer in your hands. I think that until you have an offer, you should continue as you have been doing now. No need to break up with A until you have an offer from B.

Glad to hear that once they approve you to submit, A and C don't have real power over you. However, as you said, if edits must be approved by A, I am sure they can find some way to delay that. If you can delay your breakup with A until these edits are approved, I think that would be better. As a last resort, perhaps you can use the evidence you have against A to appeal to the University to override A in that case. Maybe it would be a good idea to talk to someone outside of the department that you trust. Is there an "ombudsperson" or advocate office for students at the University level? Just to 1) get a sense of whether or not overriding A is possible, 2) if the university will be on your side if it comes down to you vs. A and 3) if they will be, giving them advance notice can help things move more quickly. At my school, for one case where I had to go against another University office (not academic related though), I talked to all of my advocates ahead of time and let them know that it might become an issue but I would not like them to take any action until it is actually an issue. Fortunately, it all worked out for me so no one had to do anything. But it was very helpful (and stress relieving) to know that I had the support and to talk through several options in case something bad did happen.

[juilletmercredi]

I have named your professors Alice, Belinda, and Celia, because letters are very difficult for me to keep straight in my head. (I will also use female pronouns.)

Your university's policy may say one thing. What is the real deal? Because my university's policy also says that the examiners and the school are the ones with final say over graduation, but the reality is that until you have passed Step 3 of the process (defended your dissertation, made your revisions and had your advisor sign off on your completed diss) your advisor has an enormous amount of control over whether or not you graduate. Furthermore, professors who have been around a while know all sorts of petty ways to delay graduation even when they are technically within their bounds. if you think Alice is mean and petty, it may be in your best interest to preserve the relationship at the very least until you have defended.

However, Celia's solution does not sound "perfect" or like it will alleviate anything. Honestly, it sounds like she's kicking the can down the road. Alice is being petty and taking her lack of funding out on you. Instead of stepping in to tell Alice to cut it out and do her job by reading your drafts, Celia's "perfect solution" is to make you do low-paid work to help Alice raise her profile to mollify Alice long enough to sign off the requisite paperwork. But Alice will inevitably get petty again. Funding doesn't come quickly, and there's no guarantee this grand experiment is going to work out, get Alice funded, or get her published in Cell. So what happens then?

Quite frankly, it feels like the best thing you can do is leave this department altogether and get a different full-time job somewhere else altogether. Barring that, though, I absolutely would not work for Alice for any wage, much less less than what you'd make as a student.

First, I would tell Belinda what's going on. She may be able to help you out. At the very least, she needs to know so she can help you if you need to delay your start date or any other complications arise for beginning your job.

Then, I'd wait as long as you can. If you can wait until after Alice signs off, that'd be great. But I would at least wait until after your defense. Then explain to Alice (and Alice alone, unless you think Celia being present would help you) that you have thought about it and you won't be able to work for her after graduation. At most, I would offer to work for her for a time-limited/fixed amount of time, with very specific tasks ("I will help set up the first phase of the experiment and help train the new graduate student/RA for 20 hours a week between December 15 and February 1.") If she pressures you to do more, you say "I'm sorry, I can't do that."

I absolutely would not work for Alice while you are also working for Belinda. That's a great way to end up doing two full-time jobs.

If you are planning to stay in academia - pursuing a tenure-track position, for example - it is theoretically possible to move on without Alice and Celia, but it'll make your life a whole lot harder. The good thing is you've got Belinda, who can write you a letter explaining the dynamics and head off any accusations or suspicions that you are a problem child. If you plan to go into industry, burning the bridge with Alice and Celia is easier.

[Hope.for.the.best]

9 hours ago, TakeruK said:

Glad to hear that once they approve you to submit, A and C don't have real power over you. However, as you said, if edits must be approved by A, I am sure they can find some way to delay that. If you can delay your breakup with A until these edits are approved, I think that would be better. As a last resort, perhaps you can use the evidence you have against A to appeal to the University to override A in that case. Maybe it would be a good idea to talk to someone outside of the department that you trust. Is there an "ombudsperson" or advocate office for students at the University level? Just to 1) get a sense of whether or not overriding A is possible, 2) if the university will be on your side if it comes down to you vs. A and 3) if they will be, giving them advance notice can help things move more quickly. At my school, for one case where I had to go against another University office (not academic related though), I talked to all of my advocates ahead of time and let them know that it might become an issue but I would not like them to take any action until it is actually an issue. Fortunately, it all worked out for me so no one had to do anything. But it was very helpful (and stress relieving) to know that I had the support and to talk through several options in case something bad did happen.

Thanks for your advice again. I definitely know where to turn for help, in case A decides to do something nasty to me again. The university is always on the students' side. Students are allowed to submit their dissertations against their advisors with the school's approval, so that should apply for the final draft. That's why A "had to" help me finish when he learnt that I documented his behaviour and sent a copy to C. However, at the moment, I don't have much ground to report A, because he approved my submission pretty quickly after C stepped in to alleviate the situation. My submission was only delayed by a month or two as a result, so it is hard to argue that A was the culprit. Actually, I doubt A will delay signing off my dissertation, because I recorded his behaviours, and I could easily tell B about that if I got to work with him. However, I just cannot use rational thinking to predict this man's behaviour. It just does not make sense that he intended to delay my graduation because he hates B. You know, he is the main advisor, and if I don't submit on time, the school will scrutinise him (not B or C). 

I certainly won't work that hard for A now, but at a minimum, I keep my promise to help him out with one experiment. He asked me to do that in the spare time while I was still writing my dissertation, but I turned down and said I would help out after submission. I could not say no at that time. That experiment is very easy, and I only need a day, so I will do that. Otherwise, he can use that as a ground to say bad things about me. I can help out with others, but only within what I can handle. I will tell him (and C) that I am looking for jobs, but can help a bit while I am waiting. He will be okay with that, so long as he doesn't know that I am looking into B. That's the tricky part here! You know, that potential Cell manuscript involves A, B and C, and we will meet to discuss the manuscript, so it is difficult to hide. 

Another tricky thing is that B appears to have no knowledge of A's anger towards him. Maybe B is good at hiding, but I can't assume that. In case he doesn't know, he will be confused when I ask him not to tell A and C. I will have to explain what A has done to me. A's comments on B are so negative and untrue that B must get very angry (e.g. This stupid man doesn't know such and such). I can potentially blow the project up because of this move! Even if B maintains his manner, he may see me as someone who is into gossiping and does not know how to work with others. 

It is not the end of the world if A knows that I plan to work for B; I just need to break up with A beautifully. I don't worry about C knowing it though, because she only cares about whether there is money to continue the project. She was just trying to maintain her good relationship with A.

[Hope.for.the.best]

2 hours ago, juilletmercredi said:

I have named your professors Alice, Belinda, and Celia, because letters are very difficult for me to keep straight in my head. (I will also use female pronouns.)

Your university's policy may say one thing. What is the real deal? Because my university's policy also says that the examiners and the school are the ones with final say over graduation, but the reality is that until you have passed Step 3 of the process (defended your dissertation, made your revisions and had your advisor sign off on your completed diss) your advisor has an enormous amount of control over whether or not you graduate. Furthermore, professors who have been around a while know all sorts of petty ways to delay graduation even when they are technically within their bounds. if you think Alice is mean and petty, it may be in your best interest to preserve the relationship at the very least until you have defended.

However, Celia's solution does not sound "perfect" or like it will alleviate anything. Honestly, it sounds like she's kicking the can down the road. Alice is being petty and taking her lack of funding out on you. Instead of stepping in to tell Alice to cut it out and do her job by reading your drafts, Celia's "perfect solution" is to make you do low-paid work to help Alice raise her profile to mollify Alice long enough to sign off the requisite paperwork. But Alice will inevitably get petty again. Funding doesn't come quickly, and there's no guarantee this grand experiment is going to work out, get Alice funded, or get her published in Cell. So what happens then?

Quite frankly, it feels like the best thing you can do is leave this department altogether and get a different full-time job somewhere else altogether. Barring that, though, I absolutely would not work for Alice for any wage, much less less than what you'd make as a student.

Thank you for your insight, juilletmercredi! I explained in my reply to TakeruK that telling Belinda is not the best option now. I agree that Celia's solution is not perfect. Unfortunately, Alice and Cecelia are long-term research partners, so Cecelia doesn't want to break the bridge with Alice. Cecelia is also on good terms with Belinda, and she will not mind that I work for Belinda. It is just that Alice may react badly towards it. 

Your suggestion of going to a different department is right. That's why I go to Belinda, who is in a different department! 

[TakeruK]

You don't have to tell Belinda every detail of Alice's behaviour in order to achieve what juilletmercredi and I have suggested. There is no need to tell Belinda about the things Alice have said about Belinda, for example. That doesn't help anyone. In addition, if Belinda knows something about Alice's anger/dislike of them, they probably would not share it with you because it's not professional to do so. So it might not be necessarily true that Belinda has no idea what's going on.

But you can (and probably should) tell Belinda that 1) you are concerned that Alice will delay your graduation and/or 2) you are concerned that Alice and Celia will force you to spend too much time on their project and that you won't be able to devote time to Belinda's project and/or 3) you are concerned that working with Belinda before Step 3 happens will cause more tension between you and Alice. You decide what to tell Belinda and what help you need. But my advice would be to keep it to the facts between you and Alice and your concerns about Alice delaying your graduation and/or withholding strong reference letters for academic positions. You don't have to say what Alice thinks of Belinda. (Honestly if Alice is that openly hostile about Belinda to you, a student, Belinda probably can figure out that Alice doesn't like them). 

[Hope.for.the.best]

Today, I just learnt that one of my relatives back home is critically ill, so I am leaving the country until mid-Jan. It is sad to me and my family, but now I have a reason to return after Belinda commences the application process. Alice and Celia will be back in early Jan, and they will look for me badly. Celia is the most uncaring person I have ever met. I took a longer than usual break last year to attend a conference, because it happened that my grandpa passed away. Alice and the school approved the holiday, but Celia was not happy and she said she would not approve it if she were the main advisor. I explained to her about my grandpa, but she said "You know, people all die eventually. You only need a week or two for your dead grandpa." But then, when one of Celia's previous students died unexpectedly of a heart attack, she was very sad about that. She nearly cried in the meeting. I am very angry with her attitude towards my grandpa. I feel that she does not respect my grandpa at all. I don't need her to cry for my grandpa, but at least she should have said something like, "I am sorry to hear that. I can understand that you need more time, but I would have preferred that you came back earlier". I am pretty sure Belinda would have said something like that and not offered any blames. 

Anyway, I have submitted. Alice and Celia have no reason to disapprove me going on holiday. I can be away till my defend in Feb. I am glad that my mind was clear enough, and not promised them anything, when I was under a lot of stress.  

 

[TakeruK]

I am sorry to hear about your family member and Celia's previous behaviour. Congrats on submitting though. I hope everything will work out for you and best wishes for the new year!

[Hope.for.the.best]

Same to you. Let's worry about that again in the new year. 

[Hope.for.the.best]

On 16/12/2017 at 11:38 AM, TakeruK said:

I am sorry to hear about your family member and Celia's previous behaviour. Congrats on submitting though. I hope everything will work out for you and best wishes for the new year!

Sadly, my relative could not make it, and the funeral will take place in a few days. I am sad of course, but I don't suffer from overwhelming grief. However, "Celia" is already pushing me to come back by mid-Jan. I will be back by then, but I don't wish to meet her, and "Alice". I am using my relative as a reason to put off meeting them, until "Belinda" confirms my job. Then I would be in a good position to decide how much I want to help them, without jeopardising my relationship with them. I am planning to say that I suffer from overwhelming grief, and that professional wishes me to take my time needed for healing. Would you think that is legitimate? I simply cannot think of a better reason to not meet them. Please note that I am not totally lying; I will see my psychologist tomorrow for my unresolved PhD stress. Thanks! 

[TakeruK]

Sorry to hear about your family member. 

I don't really have much experience in this situation so I don't really know what the best advice for you would be. I just think that if you mention your health professional, Celia or Alice might ask to see a note or something (they should not ask this but that doesn't mean they will not). Maybe you can say that you will be back but will need more time to recover from the stresses of the past few weeks and to get caught up with work that you missed while you were away (since mid-Jan would only be a few days after you return, it seems?). What is the purpose of their requested meeting? 

[Hope.for.the.best]

13 hours ago, TakeruK said:

Sorry to hear about your family member. 

I don't really have much experience in this situation so I don't really know what the best advice for you would be. I just think that if you mention your health professional, Celia or Alice might ask to see a note or something (they should not ask this but that doesn't mean they will not). Maybe you can say that you will be back but will need more time to recover from the stresses of the past few weeks and to get caught up with work that you missed while you were away (since mid-Jan would only be a few days after you return, it seems?). What is the purpose of their requested meeting? 

"Celia" and "Alice" mean to meet me and get me to work for them at the lowest salary and greatest workload possible. As I said I needa think about their offer before Christmas, I have to give them a reply, if I am to meet them in mid-Jan. That's why I want to run away from them. If I tell them the truth, i.e. work for "Belinda" but not "Alice", "Alice" would not take it well. That's why "Celia" diffused the situation by asking me to work for "Alice" in the first place. I know, he would not take it any better after "Belinda" confirms my job, but as I said, I would be in a better position to help him selectively. I can maintain a good relationship with him, because I help him out of courtesy while working for "Belinda", so I can be rest assured that he would sign me off any revisions for my dissertation without "hesitation". 

Your are right. I'd better not mention my psychologist visit. "Celia" maintains a good relationship with "Belinda", and she may tell him that I had mental health issues. Although "Belinda" does not seem like a boss that stigmatises mental health issues, he may still get reserved towards hiring me. He can easily change his mind before officially giving me an offer. Added that my psychologist cleared me of any actual mental illnesses, it's better not make myself sound ill. 

When "Celia" contacted me, I would say my family member passed away unexpectedly and I need time to recover from the grief. I can say that happened a few days ago. I doubt they will ask me to present a death certificate! 

Thanks again for your advice. 

 

[Hope.for.the.best]

Update: "Alice" decided to be nasty again! My school allows grad students to work voluntarily for up to one semester after submitting dissertations, so instead of paying me at a low rate, "Alice" asked me to work voluntarily. He cc'd that email to "Celia" and "Belinda". I am furious about that! Anyway, I maintained my manner by saying that I am still grieving and will meet him later. I then emailed "Belinda" individually and explained the situation. I offered to help out "Alice" in my own time, and that I would prioritise his project. Thankfully, "Belinda" was receptive, and he organised to meet with me and discuss soon . "Belinda" is very understanding and caring; he is truly sorry for my loss, and urges me to take all my time needed for bereavement.  

Now, things seem to be going well. I have a compelling reason to not work for "Alice", as I will not be paid. Let's hope that my meeting with "Belinda" goes well.