TheSquirrel

Base ball

Hi Eigen, excellent posts. Thanks for your input! I'm in the social sciences. My department, too, places a distinction between MA and PhD students in terms of courses. Undergrad courses at my department are 200-400, MA courses 600, and PhD courses 800. The number and type of required courses are completely different, too. That said, there are many courses that MA and PhD students take together. In fact, so far, all the classes I've taken had many MA students in them (all but 2 of whom are thesis students). The courses are cross-listed as 600 and 800. The required readings are exactly the same, but the course assignments are completely different, and we are held to completely different standards. In fact,while an A+ is virtually unheard of for PhD students in my program, MA students *can* and sometimes *do* get A+s. Aside from that, we have the TAship issue: Generally, PhD students are assigned TAships for courses that are more demanding (that have seminar components, for example). In the past 3 semesters I've TAed 3 courses, and of the 6 TAs who were TAing that class (I TAed the same course for three consecutive semesters), 5 were PhD students, and 1 was a MA thesis student. There are also some students who have been assigned TAships for MA courses. In fact, one of them almost never socializes with MA students, and gets a lot of respect from said MA students (as a result of that? or something else?). I mean, the guy has lower grades than I do, hasn't attended any conferences, and isn't involved in any departmental activities/meetings and does not attend any of the academic talks at the department, so it's safe to assume it must be due to something other than his standing in the program. I couldn't help but notice how he was being treated, and wondered whether, if I did the same, I would be viewed in the same light/treated the same way. I'm not sure. It could be for an entirely different reason that people react to him like that, of course. Another guy is also sort of like that (though less so), and he, too, is talked about by MA students with a lot of respect. I'm wondering if the different treatment they get is because they're viewed by MA students as more "professional", ironically because they don't hang out with said MA students? Sort of like one of my gramma's sayings, to the effect that if you act aloof, people will respect you more, whereas if you appear to be "chasing" after them, they will not respect you as much, because you will seem desperate for their "attention" and friendship? Also, and as a side note (this was not the main reason for my thread, it just came up later on, as part of discussions) : assuming that I will, one of these days, get a TAship for a MA-level course (the ones that are not required of PhD students, or which PhD students are not allowed to take), how will friendships with MA students affect that? If it's standard practice for PhD students to TA MA-level courses in some departments/schools, doesn't that really entail that PhD students should avoid socializing with MA students (the same way that they avoid socializing with undergrads)? Just wondering.

OK, this is interesting -- what exactly do you mean by "none of them are close friends, probably due to the differences in where we are in life"? Also, what exactly do you mean when you use the term "socialization"? Do you mean talking with students in the hallways? Going for coffee or lunch with them? Hanging out in the evenings, over dinner or a beer? I used the word to refer more specifically to social interactions completely outside the work/study environment. Somehow, I can't see profs doing *that*, based on my experiences at my school. The only time that has happened at my department is when we had a grad wine & cheese, attended by MA and PhD students and faculty. Most of the profs did *not* attend (for the record, most of the faculty at my school are actually fairly young -- in their late 30s / early 40s). Those faculty who did attend only stayed for an hour, and only hung out with other faculty or PhD students. Yes, not with MA students, but with PhD students. We talked a bit about our coursework progress, our research interests, and a few other things. And actually, I've heard faculty talking amongst themselves about when to go for drinks or dinner together, etc. They don't do that with MA students or PhD students. Why? Can you take a wild guess? Zeemore, Thank you for the calm and respectful reply. I'm not sure what you mean -- if degrees are unimportant in social life (as some insisted in this thread), I don't see why it should be different for PhD-MA student relationships compared to professor-student ones. Can you elaborate further on this? Also, if profs don't socialize with undergrads because they are supposed to maintain a position of authority vis-a-vis their students (and guard against conflict of interest), what about PhD students who TA Masters-level courses? One of the PhD students in my department has been TAing a quantitative research methods course which is required of all MA students in the program. I might also end up TAing a MA course within the next 2 semesters. In such a situation, should I just socialize with the same people whose assignments I'll be grading ?

As far as I'm aware, at my (Political Science) department, there's no "rule" that you can't discuss your personal views with faculty. That said, most professors would probably discourage voicing such personal opinions, as they believe that they have no place in academic research. Based on my personal experiences, I'd strongly strongly discourage talking about such controversial topics with *anyone* at school -- be it your own supervisor, or other students. That's if you value your academic career. There are a lot of people (yes, even profs) who might be willing to use what you say against you, so weigh your words very carefully. My supervisor and I, it turns out, do not hold very similar world views. The discovery hasn't dissuaded him from supervising my work, but it has, I feel, affected our personal interaction. I feel less comfortable around him than I previously did. I also had a fallout with another PhD student in my department, following our discussions of Quebecois separatism. I didn't mind his views, but he seems to have developed a huge dislike for me as a result of my views on the issue (a very sensitive issue here in Quebec).

In your domain settings, you'd probably have the option of doing a "cloaked" redirect to another website.

Hi, I go to bars by myself. I sit at the bar, chat up the bartender for a bit, sometimes take a book and read it, or assignments to grade. If the people sitting next to me are social enough it won't take long for us to start talking, just small conversations at first. Most of the people I see there are actually regulars, so over time we've gotten to know one another by face, if not through conversation. So it's become a very friendly and good socializing location.

wtncffts, having interacted with some MA students from McGill, I have to say that their level of maturity and commitment far exceeds that of MA students and even PhD students at my university. I once went to a talk at McGill that was mostly attended by MA students (mostly because the prof teaching the course they were taking had organized that talk and had made it a requirement for students to attend the talk), and was thoroughly impressed by how knowledgeable and serious those students were. They were engaging the speaker in a discussion far better than most MA students at my university could, and far better than I could. There's no comparison to be made there, IMO. And part of *that* may be because McGill's MA program is geared towards academia (as far as I'm aware, you don't have the internship option). At any rate, that's exactly what I'm talking about -- students at my school and more specifically MY department don't seem to have that level of commitment/maturity/ call it whatever you will. I somehow can't imagine that the brilliant students at that talk would engage in petty bickering and badmouthing. They seemed far too professional for that. I guess professionalism is what I'm getting at here. As for the high school-like lockers, well, actually, I felt the same way about it. Heh! And well, I guess it sorta is that type of an environment. What criticism is that? Sure, I'm generalizing, about the students in my department. Is it generalization about all MA students? No. If anything, I wanted to hear what other PhD students' experiences were with MA students in their program. If I had generalized about all MA students and labeled them all as immature, I wouldn't have been asking *that* question. Anyhow, that there may have been valid criticism of the way my post was phrased does not mean that it was aired appropriately. Most of the replies that were supposedly "criticisms" of my post were really aimed at insulting/trolling me. I *never* stated it did. I expect (and clearly stated) that there are differences across universities and programs. Profs at MY school interact with PhD students and MA students differently. Nearly everything in my department is divided into MA (in this case, MPPPA) and PhD. PhD students are almost never categorized as "grad students", and the same goes for MPPPAers. Even among MPPPA students, a clear distinction is always placed between thesis option students and internship option students. In fact, where "grad student" is used, it is usually understood to refer to PhD students. Actually, YES it *does* make sense to ask. There's nothing wrong with that question IMO. Among professors, it's a bit different because profs (at least in my department) tend to hang out with people who are in similar subfields. But yes, I have noticed that some profs actually hang out with other profs who are, for example, tenured, etc. By the same token, I'm assuming all those who frowned upon my question, will, once they become professors, chill out with undergrads and MA students? After all, using the same logic, what distinguishes a fourth-year BA student from a first year MA student?

I have a 13" Toshiba laptop. It was rather expensive when I got it. My older laptop's monitor hinges broke and I was in urgent need for a new laptop. This model had just been released and it was the only one with the features I wanted. Got it for $1,200. Intel processor, 500gb hd, separate graphics card, etc. I haven't had any issues with it, except for the keyboard, which is not one of Toshiba's strong points, arguably. The keyboard itself works fine, but the keys are starting to show signs of wearing away.... I've had the laptop for a year and a half now... Also, battery doesn't last for more than 2 hrs. The last laptop I had (the one that broke) was a Toshiba. I had used it for 7 years without any problems.

Yes, a few people did give their opinions. A few others are trolling. I don't like trolls, if that's what you're wondering about.

I'm sorry -- what on earth are you talking about? Do you even read? You don't seem to be someone who has the habit of reading -- you seem to just pick and choose phrases and take them out of context or say totally unrelated things in reply. Oh, here we go: the last trick in the book of the desperate: cast doubt on someone's very credibility. Let me guess, now you're going to ask for proof that I'm in a PhD program, that I'm actually in Montreal, and so on and so forth.. Textbook definition of troll. You've finally managed to get yourself onto my ignore list. Congratulations.

My question was about exactly that , and what others' experiences have been like. There was no need for that hypersensitivity on the part of some. Your input is much appreciated. Yes, sure, seeing as I have only lived in this city for a year now, I have a fairly good number of friends, from all walks of life. Some of my friends have vocational degrees, and others PhD degrees (or in the process of getting them). As I also stated, I have undergrad and MA student friends, too. I have a certain dislike for those who do the internship option of the MA program in my department (btw, for some perspective, there are only three thesis students in the entire MA program), but that is only because of my not-so-great experiences with them, and not because of their career choices (in fact, I've often said that they seem to be smarter than the rest of us who have chosen academia, because they will definitely have better job prospects). Anyhow, I do talk to them on a day to day basis, and often socialize with them, but after strained relations with quite a few of them, I was wondering if I made the wrong decision, and if I should've kept my distance.

Goes to show that some students never grow out of their immaturity. Really dude, grow up, and stop seeing things that aren't there, and picking fights for no reason. It's not fitting for a grad student.

Yes, I do think they're separate from me. That's why my department has a MA and a PhD program, and that's why my profs have different requirements for MA and PhD students in the same courses. If you have a beef with the fact that there are MA and PhD programs, take it up with universities, not with me. The gist of my post was about how a good chunk of the MA students (as opposed to PhD students) at my department are immature. I have noticed that this is not so much about individuals, but about career choices -- the people who are doing the thesis option in the MA program are serious, the ones who are doing the internship option are the more immature/gossippy kind. Like I said, I indicated that it might vary from university to university, since my university has that internship option (and in my field, that's very rare). I'm not sure why this seems to be the trend among internship students. It might be the fact that they don't take coursework as seriously as thesis students do. At any rate, I think I made it fairly clear that I am biased in favor of thesis students for that reason. I was not portraying MA students as inherently evil, and PhD students as the good. Geez. As I said, PhD students, too, have demonstrated similar immaturity, but it's been rather rare compared to MA students.

Yes, I talked to my prof about my MA student friend, and his financial difficulties, when I asked him if he has any RAship for him. How does that indicate that I've gossipped or badmouthed any student? I believe you've just gone on a witch-hunt. How did I talk about MA students in my thread? By indicating that not all MA students are like the ones i'm describing. That this could be a feature of my program, as most MA students in my department are in it for the internship option, etc. Yes, such vile things to say about MA students! I think your reaction provides a textbook example of the type of MA student I was talking about.

I think the last bit of your post indicates that you missed the entire point of this thread. Who said anything about ability??

You never miss an opportunity to badmouth people, do you? How does that indicate elitism? I wanted to see what other PhD students think about interacting with MA students, not what MA students think about interacting with MA or PhD students. If you don't like my question, don't take part in the thread, as simple as that. I think you're just trolling.

Can you show where I said that I said anything about fellow students to a prof? Let alone badmouthing them?

I did not say anything about MA students to the prof. He brought up the topic after I asked if he had money for a friend of mine, who was short for money, and wanted to do research with him. He talked about MA students, and I just listened, and told him that I'd tell my friend that he didn't have any research opportunity right now. That's all. You strike me as someone who jumps to conclusions very quickly, based on unsubstantiated assumptions. I'm interested in research and teaching, something that seems to be at the very bottom of many academics' list of priorities, by the looks of it. I hang out with colleagues and we whine about some things too -- about the way some things are, and not about people. It's all good and fun, until a MA student decides to use anything that comes out of your mouth against you. Nope, I don't want confirmation of my decision. In fact, I have not made any decision at all. I was just asking for input from PhD students, based on their experiences. It seems some people jumped the gun and took my post as elitist, and took the entire thread in another direction. I don't see why people would post a reply when they don't have anything to contribute to the discussion/question at hand. Maybe they hadn't had their share of trolling or something. And actually, my question was directed at PhD students, not at MA students. At any rate, thanks for your input.

At any rate, if anyone here whose program/department has an internship option for MA students would care to comment about his/her relations with MA students, I'd highly appreciate it.

Rising_star, And that's the sad reality of academia -- people who think they can do all that (gossip, badmouth, etc.) and then come home and write papers, and then get a professorship, and continue doing all that (gossipping, badmouthing). That's exactly why, sadly, academia is such a place of backstabbing and badmouthing, rather than collaboration. As for your comparison with racists -- I frankly knew that was coming, but decided to write it anyhow. I have never seen a racist who *actually* has a black *friend*. A black person they may have talked to once or twice? Maybe. But that hardly makes people friends. So I think you're just as guilty of jumping to conclusions about my alleged elitism as I allegedly am of jumping to conclusions about MA students. How do I know that profs view MA students differently than they view PhD students? Because I've been with them in the same room, and have seen them interact, and have also talked about MA students with my prof (I recently asked my prof if he had a RA opportunity for my friend who is a MA student), and he told me that, frankly, he doesn't want to hire a MA student, even though they get paid much less compared to PhD students. That they (the ones at my department, that is) are mostly not efficient time-wise, and not as reliable when they are needed ASAP. Again, that might be different at other universities, given that my university has a non-thesis MA option (internship), which is what most MA students do. I've gone out for drinks many times with said MA students. I know them well enough. I'm not close friends, obviously. But I think I know what they're all about, judging by their actions. Having some of them around is just like having a walking-talking tape recorder that records everything you say about anything, and then uses it against you when you "stray" from their childish agendas. That's not exactly in tune with my definition of maturity. Maybe it is in tune with your and others' definitions of maturity.

Superior in what way? Superior in rank? Absolutely. If MA and PhD were one and the same, they wouldn't be called different things. There's a reason why, in my field at least, people are rarely if ever accepted into PhD programs straight from BA. In science fields that may be the case, but in my field, where you're supposed to have done tons of reading, yes, there is a huge difference between MA and PhD. And, for that matter, between a PhD student and a PhD candidate. If you think hierarchies don't exist in academia, you're mistaken. And yes, there is a reason that profs interact with undergrads one way, with MA students another way, and wih PhD students/candidates yet another way. Whether you like it or not, it all changes, depending on where you are in the field. So I've been wondering if part of the disrespect dished out by some MA students has to do with the fact that they saw me as too desperate for socialization. I really admire MA students who want to hang out with PhD students, and I view them as equals. Other MA students who are engaged in petty fights and gossipping? Not so much. Call it condescending, it doesn't change the fact that those MA students shouldn't have chosen academia anyway. Actually, most of them have not, because they just view grad school as a stepping stone to a government job (the ones who do the internship option in my program). Your MA crowd might be different than mine -- I'm wondering if anyone whose program has a similar internship option for students not interested in continuing further in academia, has any input on this?

Well, for those who accused me of elitism even though I clearly pointed out I was not talking about all MA students: I have a friend who was, until 2 months ago, an undergrad student at my university. He's 30 and just finished his undergrad and is starting his MA at another university in the fall. I don't think I have any elitist views toward him, or that I think of myself as smarter than him. I used to hang out with a small group of students from my department (none of whom are PhDs, btw), two of whom were undergrads (including that guy who just finished his undergrad), and we played board games once a week during the summer, and every now and then during the fall/spring semesters. It's not like I'm gonna stop being friends with my undergrad and MA friends. My question was really about whether or not I should continue hanging out with the broader MA crowd because experience has shown that *most* of them happen to be busying themselves with gossipping and badmouthing more than with writing those papers they ought to be writing. Those who are busy being grad students are not around campus often enough, and, by the looks of it, prefer not to socialize with *that* MA crowd either.

I guess this thread really links up with my post in one of the other threads, about profs looking at PhD students as soon-to-be-colleagues, whereas MA students are typically viewed as, just out of undergrad, or, at best, as aspiring PhD students. My profs talk to me differently than the way they talk to MA students. It's quite obvious that they consider us as almost their equals, whereas MA students are mostly seen as, well, students.

Hi rising_star, Well, I don't have a problem befriending MA students per se. I'm good friends with two MA students who are in the thesis option and are very serious and intend to apply to PhD programs. My beef is with MA students in general, and how immature many (if not most) of them are/can be. I feel that being too involved with them, yes, diminishes my standing, because it drags me into fights/drama that I think serious PhD students would avoid. I remember how, during my undergrad years, my TAs (all PhD students) were very serious and based on what I saw at my department back then, never really hung out with MA students, and actually mostly kept to themselves when at school. To me, that's what PhD students are "typically" like, and what I saw at my current university is entirely different than what I had expected to see, and somehow, it feels strange / not right. I don't know if my TAs were different outside the school environment -- could be. My question was about both hanging out with MA students while at the department as well as socializing with them outside the academic environment. My strained relations with a few MA students has left me wondering if it was because I stooped to their level of immaturity in hanging out with them? I don't know, just thinking out loud. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the elitist kind -- if I had been, I wouldn't have befriended them to begin with. But some of my experiences with some MA students has left me wondering if it's better off being disliked for not being social enough, than being disrespected and laughed at and badmouthed, after being too social? I don't know -- I just wanted to hear other peoples' views about this, and their experiences with it.

I never managed to like Zotero. Its user interface is terrible. I have yet to find a software that does the things I want it to do: organize my PDFs into categories, allow me to type notes about them (not ON the actual PDFs), and which has a decent, uncluttered, user interface, and which does not force me to keep a browser open in order to use it. If Zotero evolves into an actual program rather than a browser extension/add-on, and changes a few things in it, I'll consider using it, but as it stands, it's kinda annoying (though probably one of the least annoying out there). Mind you, I use Firefox, and it's usually open, but I still don't like how it works within that, and not as a separate program. One HUGE turnoff, and probably the main reason I will not use Zotero, is that it does not seem to let me save or print my notes (I like converting them into PDF and keeping separate copies of them as well) in a normal fashion. It seems to open the generated report into the browser, but when I print THAT (or convert it into PDF), it shows the zotero link at the top, as if it has been printed off the web. I also don't understand the advantages of having it all stored online, and don't feel comfortable with the idea. I like to keep my stuff local. I like how you can turn off the syncing feature on OneNote. I don't need it, I don't use it, and don't want to be forced to use it. I'd like to save my notes and references on my computer, into one file (or a notebook, as in OneNote) and be able to back them up. I also don't like how you have to put all that time and effort into uploading and organizing your references on one program, when it's not that good, and then being forced to continue using it because it's not compatible with other programs and you can't move your stuff as a result. I recently tried OneNote, and I like its note-taking and sub-page/sub-section, etc features, but it's not good for organizing files and then taking notes on them, not to mention that it doesn't have the tag feature that Zotero and others have. Sigh. I also tried Mendeley and Qiqqa, but I didn't like either of them. I don't remember, but one of these two does not allow printing, and one of them only allows you to take notes on the actual PDF file. If I had wanted to do that, I'd be using Adobe Acrobat Pro, which I already have. Lame.