MaxwellAlum
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Posts posted by MaxwellAlum
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I didn't attend HKS, but I know people who did, and I hold a public policy master's (from Syracuse) and now work in government. I disagree with some of the premises of in the article. I don't think it's easy to teach leadership in the classroom, and I personally wouldn't want to attend a master's program that was primarily focused on teaching soft skills. I don't think it's bad to teach economics or quant. You need those skills for many jobs in government, and I think it would be foolish to attend a program that lacked those components. From what I can tell, HKS doesn't require less political science coursework than other public policy programs. Syracuse's MPA had one course in this area, and I thought it was very valuable and just the right amount of political science for the degree program.
There's nothing wrong with students going into the private sector if that's what they want. If indeed HKS is actively telling students that "you can make more of a difference in the private sector" - yeah I would find that a bit problematic and simplistic. Public sector jobs have their frustrations, and I can absolutely understand people who choose to go to the private sector, but we as a society need more good people in government, and good people can and do make a difference. On a side note, one of the things I loved about Syracuse was being surrounded by students and faculty who were truly committed to public service. If that's not the case at HKS, that could be a disadvantage - it's nice to be around people with similar goals.
The main piece I agree with is that, given how much tuition HKS charges, if you are paying full freight, it's not conducive to building a career in public service. Entering government with $140k in student debt is absurd. So I would say think carefully about what your goals are and your own financial situation before attending (and consider MBAs if you're private sector oriented). I have heard amazing things about HKS's career services, but I also wonder how much of the success of their alumni (and the alumni of any public policy school) is based on who they accept rather than the value they actually add.
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Also I know that Brown has a Public Humanities masters program - I don't know much about it other than it exists. One thing to bear in mind with a degree like this one is that the more specific the degree, the harder it is to market yourself to a broader range of jobs. So if you end up deciding you want to work in an area other than the arts/cultural policy, you're probably better off with an MPP or an MPA than a degree that's specific to a particular policy area.
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One way to possibly minimize your risk is to go with an MPP, which is a more flexible degree. I did a dual MPA/MAIR at the Maxwell School, and a surprising number of those of us who did the dual degree ended up working in local government, which can end up paying better than a lot of NGO jobs. It's easier to market yourself to a local government or otherwise domestic policy-focused job from an MPP than it is from an IR degree. That can come in handy if, for example, you realize you really don't want to live in DC, New York or abroad.
I'd think carefully about specifically what kind of work you want to do. My fellow Maxwell alumni and I have so many different kinds of jobs that require very different types of skills. For example, I do policy research, for which the statistics and economics skills are quite useful, while others are more involved in program coordination and contract management types of work. Some folks work in very finance focused jobs (e.g. bond rating agencies). Maybe neither of these degrees is the right one for you. Not going to grad school now and getting some work experience instead as others have suggested might be a better option. A handful of folks I studied with at Maxwell, mostly those that didn't have a lot of prior work experience, ended up later getting another master's degree in a different field (e.g. finance, or in one case nutrition) when they had a better sense of where they wanted their career to go.
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In discussing the various reforms to student loans including the elimination of PSLF, the President's budget proposal states, "All student loan proposals apply to loans originated on or after July 1, 2018, except those provided to borrowers to finish their current course of study." So conceivably if you have already started your master's program by next year, you could still be eligible for forgiveness. However, since the President's proposed budget is really more of a wish list than anything else, we really don't know for sure whether PSLF will be eliminated by Congress and if so, whether existing borrowers will be grandfathered in. Refer to page 20 of: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/omb/budget/fy2018/budget.pdf
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5 hours ago, kb6 said:
I also think it's really easy to dismiss money concerns when you're applying for these programs in your early-to-mid-20s.$
Yes, this is so important. Before grad school I used to feel likeI had so much extra money I could save on a very low salary living in a tiny room in a shared house with four other people and not going out much and rarely to restaurants. Now I am 32 and my sigificantly higher salary feels much more constrained. I spend more money for all the reasons you mentioned and I'm more aware of how much I need to set aside for retirement and for a down payment for a house. Don't make the mistake I did of thinking that you'll be able to pay off your $50k in loans in 3 years by throwing half of your take home into your loans. Unless you are getting help from other sources, you're going to want that money for something else.
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16 hours ago, kb6 said:
Yes, I definitely know people taking advantage of IBR to make their day-to-day lives manageable - as far as I'm aware, there are no SAIS grads sleeping under a bridge! But with the exception of those who qualify for PSLF, I think a lot of them are going to feel pretty bitter when that massive tax bill comes due in 20-25 years. Depending on the loan amount, IBR might not even cover the interest payment, allowing the total amount owed to actually increase over time...
Again, my intention is not to make people feel bad about the debt they've already taken out, but more to warn prospective students who haven't yet signed the dotted line.
Agreed. Taking out much more than $100k is a big risk in this respect. At $100-$120k in loans, a person's income-based payments will probably at least cover the interest or most of it after 5-7 years of salary growth in a good government job. If you're anywhere near $200k in total student loan debt, you're really looking at a balance that will grow significantly over 25 years on a public sector salary and an income-based plan, and that's going to result in a massive tax hit in the absence of public service loan forgiveness. The interest will make it really tough to make a dent in a balance like that. There are options for dealing with tax hits (installment plans, a personal loan/home equity loan) but it's still a huge cost, for a degree that probably didn't increase your income much.
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On 4/15/2017 at 8:00 PM, kb6 said:
I have some friends who took on 6-figure debt loads, and it's a gigantic weight on their shoulders that will have major ramifications on their lives for decades to come. Think - living with roommates into your mid-30s, racking up credit card debt because you're short on cash when having to make that $900 payment each month (which basically just covers interest), having to make salary the #1 consideration in the job hunt (which sucks when you're getting a degree that qualifies you for some awesome but lower-paid jobs at non-profits and advocacy organizations), not being able to fly to friends' weddings or take vacations, etc.
I agree with most of what you said in your post, kb6. I don't think taking on six-figure debt for an MPP is a smart idea. However, for the sake of those folks with six-figure debt, I will say I personally know several people in this situation who are definitely not living with roommates in their mid-30s or racking up credit card debt. They are on income-based repayment plans, which allows them a lot of flexibility in terms of saving, career choices, etc. Yes, they run the risk of making payments for 25 years/forever, but that basically means they are 10% poorer than they would be without the debt (current income-based plans allow you to pay a maximum of 10% of your income above poverty level). Not the best outcome, especially for a degree that you could get for much less money at a different school or with aid, but hardly the nightmare situation that some describe.
Folks, if you are racking up credit card debt because of your federal student loans you need to get on an income-based repayment plan immediately. It makes zero sense to pay 15% to 20% interest on a credit card to pay down loans with a 7% rate.
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On 03/03/2017 at 8:17 AM, WallStreetConvert said:
For those of us going back to school after some time in the workforce, I would keep in mind that if you convert your 401(k) to an IRA, you can use the funds to pay for tuition, books, supplies, and living expenses (including rent, if you are a full time student), without paying a penalty. You will still have to pay income tax on the distributions, but since taxable income will likely be low while you are in school, that should be relatively minimal.
This is obviously not what I was hoping to use my retirement savings for as I have put it away over the past few years, but to me, this is preferable to going into massive debt to pay for school. Will have time to build it back up over the years...
This is definitely an option. However, from a financial perspective I do not think it is the right one. Given the benefits of student loans (income-based repayment, potential forgiveness in 10 or 25 years) and the fact that you can reasonably expect to get a better return from your IRA investments in the market compared with current student loan interest rates, you are potentially throwing away a lot of money. The way I thought about it is, if I save money in my retirement fund, I will still have that money regardless of whether I get loan forgiveness or not, but if I use it to pay tuition/loans, that money is gone, regardless of whether I would be eligible for forgiveness or not. If you draw down your retirement savings now, you'll have to build them back up later and make up for lost gains. If you take out loans, the worst scenario is you'll have to pay them all back with interest (likely less interest than you are gaining in the market).
It is unwise to take loans out with the expectation of them being forgiven. However, it is also unwise to make financial decisions that totally ignore the likelihood you'd be eligible for forgiveness eventually, either in 10 or 25 years. Yes, there might be a tax hit in 25 years, but you can take out a much smaller loan to pay the taxes - it can still be a massive benefit depending on how much gets forgiven.
The bottom line is, whether you take out loans or draw down your IRA, it is still going to cost you down the road. The best option financially is to pay as little as possible for your degree in the first place.
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Many people spend $50k or less on their public policy degrees - they can do this through merit aid (which is more common than you may think) and/or paying in-state tuition at a public university. 5 years ago, I ended up taking out just under $50k in loans for a dual degree (two years) at the Maxwell School with the help of significant merit aid.
Given the existing income-based repayment programs, theoretically you can take out any amount of federal loans (up to the cost of attendance), get a government job, and still not be destitute. While I can't guarantee these programs will be in place or unchanged when you graduate, there hasn't been much talk of getting rid of them (Public Service Loan Forgiveness is another story). I know several people who took out $100k+ in loans for their public policy degrees, and they are generally fine financially. They make their income-based payments every month, so even though they are not necessarily making a dent in their loan balances (their balances may even be increasing as the interest accrues), they are not at risk of defaulting on their loans.
But one thing I think a lot of us realized after we graduated is that public sector and nonprofit employers generally do not pay people more money because they attended Harvard instead of the University of Maryland or SUNY Albany. You are very likely to start your job out of grad school and find yourself working with people from all types of academic backgrounds, and the high performers succeed and get promoted because of how they work, not where they studied. Of the people I know with $100k+ in loans, I think they could easily be making the same amount of money without the six-figure degree. Some of their peers did end up in high-paying consulting gigs, and that may very well be worth the cost of the degree. However, I am of the mind that, if you want to go into consulting, you should just get an MBA. If you want to go into government, you are not going to make substantially more money because you went to Harvard.
Bottom line is that if you really, really want to, you're not going to completely ruin your life by taking out $140-$150k in loans. But it very likely will not be worth the investment, given that it is possible to spend a lot less on the same degree somewhere else.
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Not knowing much about Brown's program, I would venture to guess you'll get a similar education at both programs. I can vouch for Syracuse's program in that the professors are genuinely committed to teaching and the courses are well-designed. But frankly, when it comes to public administration, there is only so much you can learn in a classroom. The field is just so varied in terms of the skills you'll use in any given job.
In terms of career placement, Syracuse's network is fantastic. Syracuse alumni definitely helped me get my job. That being said, even though Brown's program is new, I am sure that the broader university has a network as well (perhaps not as concentrated in the public sector), and the Ivy League name might give you a leg up if you are looking to get a job in the private sector.
A last thing I'd recommend you consider is that, at least at Syracuse, the program itself is an opportunity to meet other people in your field and make lasting connections. I had a blast when I was at Syracuse because I met so many people with similar interests to mine (there was also a fair bit of partying although I didn't party as much as other people), some of whom have become my best friends. The other major program I had been considering was Georgetown, which would only have made sense financially if I lived with my parents. I know for me, I enjoyed the social aspect at Syracuse more because I was living near the other students and not with my parents, so that might be a factor for you as well. Living costs in Syracuse are so low (I spent under $500 a month in rent and utilities in a shared apartment) that it was well worth it in terms of the independence I had.
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Federal workers I know are all worried about losing their jobs and/or the prospect of being forced to undo all of the work their agencies have done for the past eight years. Many of my friends in nonprofits that rely on federal funds are worried about getting defunded. Definitely look at state and local government (there are actually tens of thousands of counties and municipalities in the US) and private sector (they might benefit from the federal hiring freeze if agencies are forced to outsource). If you are looking to work internationally, seek out an internship at the UN and take the YPP exam. But I suspect everyone working in the public policy arena will be impacted in some way, if not immediately than within a year or two.
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Syracuse offers several assistantships. If I recall correctly some are "full" meaning they cover 24 credit hours plus I think you get some additional spending money and some are "half" which means they cover 12 credit hours plus additional spending money. Also, housing in Syracuse is very cheap (most people in my class several years ago paid less than $500 a month in rent+utilities, if they shared an apartment/house with other students). Some assistantships are awarded before you enroll, and some assistantships people can compete for during the first summer session. If you are competitive for admission to SIPA, you are likely pretty competitive for some kind of assistantship at Syracuse. Also look into the fellowships they offer - I know people who had them who graduated with zero debt. But you may have to apply for those separately.
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2 hours ago, Quickmick said:
Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see the PSLF as some magic bullet. Playing around with the repayment calc. (https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/mobile/repayment/repaymentEstimator.action#view-repayment-plans it really doesn't seem that wonderful. Using the average debt for a 4/yr public institution I found the (attached) following. Under standard and graduated payment plans PSLF pays zero. With REPAYE and PAYE you save 10-15%, which, while nice, isn't a huge number. The ICR/IBR numbers get up to 15-25ish%, but only come into play if you meet poverty guidelines (up to 150%, I think). It doesn't appear to be a massive burden to keep it going, and if it goes away it would not (in most cases) add tens of thousands of dollars to an individual's obligations.
It helps people who borrow a lot the most (that's why the program is becoming increasingly controversial). For people who have $50k or more in debt, it's pretty easy to go on the income-based plan and not really make much of a dent in your balance over several years, because you end up just barely covering the interest on a public sector salary. Factor in that the money you save on your loan payment, you can put in a retirement fund and get a better return on that, it makes a lot of sense for many people to do income-based repayment and hope for PSLF (caveat - I do NOT recommend borrowing more than $50k on the basis of potentially getting PSLF - those loan payments, even if they are income-based, hurt a lot more when you're also supporting a family).
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12 hours ago, Damis said:
Just in case you needed more perspective. This is probably the worst nightmare one could imagine.
Actually, if they win this could set a precedent that would give the rest of us a lot of peace of mind. If the government can't go back on its promise to these folks, that means it can't go back on its promise to everyone else who has been making payments that are supposed to count towards PSLF. Of course, for those people applying to grad school now, there's no guarantee Congress won't eliminate the program before they take out their loans.
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Not sure if this is helpful, but the couple people I know who attended Fletcher absolutely loved it. I was accepted (I was 26 when I applied), but turned down the offer because it would have required me to take on six-figure debt. I ended up at Syracuse because they offered a lot more aid. I do not regret my decision.
For what it's worth, I racked up just under $50k of debt from my grad program and have found it to be quite manageable using the income-based repayment options. Of course it'd be ideal not to have debt, but I don't find it to be terribly stressful (although dealing with the loan servicers can be a pain). My personal opinion is that having much more than $50k in debt is a lot assuming a public sector salary.
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On 9/24/2016 at 9:59 AM, kb6 said:
I'm surprised you don't feel your salary has been higher at all because of your experience. I work in the private sector, but my understanding that government salaries were calculated something like BASE + DEGREES + YEARS EXPERIENCE.
Since my previous job was very administrative, compared with my current job which is very analytical, my previous experience was not seen to be relevant. I definitely know people from my program who started at a higher grade in the federal government due to their previous experience. I think it matters what you do before grad school - if you are unfocused like I was, the experience will help you more personal development-wise than resume-wise. But if you know roughly what you want to do and can get a job that is relevant to that, then that will place you a step ahead out of grad school. That being said, once you get into the government after grad school you can often increase your salary just by sticking around and getting promoted to higher grades. Then you'll reach a ceiling where you need to competitively apply for positions to get promoted.
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There are advantages to both. I started grad school four years after finishing undergrad. I was a bit unfocused out of undergrad, and pursuing an MPA did not occur to me at the time. In the meantime I worked for a nonprofit in a mostly administrative position. I learned a lot in that position, including just the basics of how to work in an office environment. That job helped me figure out what I liked and what I didn't like and inspired me to pursue the MPA. I easily got a government job out of grad school, and I do think my work experience before grad school made me a more attractive candidate (though my grad school internship was more directly relevant to the job). I also think I feel more certain of my career path than I otherwise would and have a better understanding of general organizational management issues, which helps me in my current role.
That being said, my government job out of grad school at age 28 was an entry level position with a very entry level salary. That salary has since grown considerably, but if I had gone to grad school straight out of undergrad, I could conceivably have gotten a very similar job out of grad school and started progressing earlier salary-wise. While my job after undergrad helped me a lot from a personal development standpoint, it did not help qualify me for more advanced positions out of grad school.
I don't regret my choices because I don't think I would have known to do the MPA when I was straight out of undergrad. I am also feel grateful that I am in the right career path for my skills and interests. I am not sure that would be the case if I had tried to go to grad school straight out of college. But I am a little envious of my college friends who are four years ahead of me career-wise because they essentially started earlier.
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Hi there! Your background seems very similar to mine. I also had a UK master's in the humanities before pursuing a policy degree (MPA) at Syracuse.
1. As far as I am aware, having the MPA did not make me look aimless. The only real downside is the cost and the time spent getting the degree. Otherwise, it really helped to focus my career and qualify me for a research-focused position in local government. The fact that Syracuse has a huge network in the US did help me get my job (I connected with Syracuse alumni in my office when I applied)
2. From what I understand, think tanks do not tend to pay very well and there is often not a lot of growth potential. They are great for people straight out of college, but then many people tend move on to places with more growth potential such as government or consulting. Many of the people who do progress have Ph.D,'s. Bear that in mind when thinking about how to translate your degree into a career, particularly if you are taking on debt.
3. It may be worthwhile to look into a more broad-based degree such as an MPP/MPA that will give you the quant background, but will give you more options during your job search than a specific social policy degree. Many MPP/MPA programs offer social policy concentrations/electives.
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59 minutes ago, MD guy said:
I think it is safe to say that you were an outstanding applicant to SIPA. Congratulations. But my point was, realistically, people shouldn't expect this sort of thing to happen to you, much as you did not expect it yourself. I don't think it's unfair to say some level of debt is expected for many MPP/MPA students in this day and age of ridiculous tuition..
I think it depends on where you choose to apply. Many reputable but less prestigious schools offer good amounts of aid to attract the types of candidates who might otherwise go to SIPA/HKS etc.
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On 5/27/2016 at 10:06 AM, Saturnalia said:
Yikes. That is bleak. So I'm actually a matriculating SAIS student, and I'll probably need to take out around 50-55k total for SAIS, but I also have about 15k in undergrad subsidized stafford loans. Obviously that's a lot less than 140k, but would you say that's a reasonable amount of debt? Or would that also be insane? I'm playing with the idea of a dual-degree (JD), and if I went that route, all these debt calculations would fly out the window, but I figured it doesn't hurt to ask.
Piggy-backing on that, I'm taking a couple courses at SAIS over the summer and would be able to take a reduced course-load in the fall (admissions has told me that as long as I take 3 courses, I can retain my full-time status). My job isn't too demanding and would allow me flex hours. Given SAIS's workload, would working and studying be feasible for the fall semester? Does anyone do this or would it be hell?
In terms of the amount of debt, $65k is a bit on the high side. It will accrue over $300 in interest every month. A standard payment on a ten-year payment plan is over $700, which is a pretty big chunk out of a $50-$60k salary, especially after taxes, healthcare, retirement savings, etc. Alternatively, assuming an income of $50k (AGI), an income-based payment will be around $270. One option is to stay on income-based repayment until your income grows enough/you get loan forgiveness in 10 or 25 years. Although there are no guarantees that loan forgiveness will occur, I actually don't think this is a terrible idea if you already have the debt, since any money you save on loan payments you can put in a retirement fund, while money you throw into your loans is gone even if you get forgiveness eventually. But do watch out for a ballooning balance if your payments don't even cover the accruing interest, and be prepared for the anxiety of watching Congress consider changes to forgiveness programs.
Another option, if you are relatively young/have few financial responsibilities, is to focus your disposable income on paying off your loans as fast as possible after you get out of grad school. That will likely entail some combination of living with roommates, no extra retirement contributions, no savings for a house downpayment, etc. It is possible to lower that balance significantly within a couple of years and make it manageable. It just really depends on where you are in life and what your financial priorities are.
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On 5/24/2016 at 0:04 AM, SocratesTheMediocre said:
> more than half the class can't get jobs in the field.
This was definitely not my experience at Maxwell, and friends with degrees from HKS and Fletcher don't seem to have had this issue. Certainly some people found jobs in other fields (a surprising number of folks who had an international focus in grad school ended up in local government), but it's hard to say how much of that is because they couldn't find a job in IR vs they found a better offer elsewhere. And some people have taken time to find the right position. I do not think MPP/IR grads face the same issues that law school grads do. But I would also not recommend taking on law school debt for an MPP/IR degree.
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In order to pay off $100k of student loans in 10 years, you would need to pay $1,100 per month. In order for that to be "affordable" based on the standard of paying no more than 10% of your monthly income (that's what the income-based repayment plans for federal loans is based on), you would need an income of $150,000, excluding contributions to retirement and health insurance premiums.
Given entry-level public sector salaries, a common approach is to enroll in an income-based repayment plan. On a $60k income, your payment would be around $352 per month. Bear in mind the calculation for income-based payments is based on your AGI, which excludes retirement contributions and health insurance premiums. Therefore the income-based payment will probably be a bit lower. Based on current interest rates, $100k in loans will accrue $487 in interest every month. So your income-based payments will not even cover the interest that accrues each month.
What does this mean in practice? If you do income-based repayment, you can keep doing that until your loans get forgiven in 10 (through public service loan forgiveness, which may very well be eliminated or changed by Congress) or 20 or 25 years (assuming you're paying under IBR or PAYE). However, unless you get forgiveness through public service loan forgiveness, the amount forgiven is likely to be considered taxable income. An extra $100k in income (or more, if you've let your balance increase over time) is a big tax hit. Plus of course there is the stress to consider.
Also bear in mind that the salaries out of HKS are as much a function of who goes to HKS as they are a function of what HKS does for its students. In other words, if you are someone straight out of college who got into HKS, the odds of getting a federal government job that pays $65k are pretty low. You're much more likely to start out as a GS-9 making $53k (assuming you are in DC). Your salary will certainly grow (if you're lucky, you could get up to a GS13 in as little as three years, and that currently equates to a $92k salary), but so will your expenses/desire for savings if you're trying to save for retirement, buy a house, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I have heard great things about HKS (apparently their career services is amazing), Fletcher and similar schools. That said, I have seen my former classmates from Syracuse go on to jobs with sought-after employers such as the UN (I was offered one), the World Bank, and McKinsey. You can go on to have a great career out of most reputable MPP programs, though I think a place like HKS might do a bit more hand-holding along the way. Think carefully about taking on a massive load of debt for the sake of a prestigious name on your resume, in order to work in a field where your salary will likely top out at around $200k at the most, unless you decide to go for the private sector, in which case why not just get an MBA?
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I am all for ways to help folks in professions like social work, where there is a high need and pay is low. I question whether PSLF specifically is really a good way to allocate funds.
Programs like IBR and PAYE already offer debt relief for everyone, you just have to make income-based payments for more years in order to qualify for forgiveness. Is the PSLF definition of "public service" the best way to target a more generous program? I'm not too sure.
Has HKS Lost Its Way? (Article)
in Government Affairs Forum
Posted
I read the article again, and I really disagree with the idea that economics and quant skills are superfluous in government work. Yes, you may very well end up in a job where you yourself do not do a lot of quantitative or economic analysis. But you still need to understand stats and econ well enough to be a consumer of it and to understand its limits. You don't want to be that agency/department director who throws around terms like "statistical significance" without really knowing what they mean. The more I think about it, the more the article seems like a hit piece with more innuendo than substantive points.