theotherlily

Wait, you got an email? (didn't apply last year, I feel like when I applied before I got a letter.)

Also, Zissou, I'm only waiting on Julliard, and I've moved so many times this past year that I'm definitely not going to get my rejection letter. Any intel would be great from a life-planning perspective.

@Sealou- You can recycle almost everything else, but you definitely need a new writing sample. You should probably also revamp your personal statement, but unless there was something really really wrong with them, or you get a great new recommender in your life, I wouldn't replace your letters of rec. And use those GRE scores till they run out! Why waste money?

Although, I do have to say, I have friends in Iowa's program, and it seems like it's a fantastic place that they've gotten a lot out of. I suspect that they are further along than they are willing to admit.

That's the thing- it's not the decision deadline for other schools, it's the decision deadline for IOWA. The University of Iowa signed the April 15th agreement. So if you get a funded offer from them, you have till 4/15 to accept it. I don't know how many people Iowa accepts, but maybe they get their funded acceptances out earlier? Yale has reported getting 500-600 applications. Julliard gets 300-400 (which includes tons of recent MFA grads). But every other number I've heard quoted has been much, much lower. Like 60 applications for really fantastic, well known and well-funded programs that get like, 800 fiction application. 35 for less well-known but still successful and well funded programs. I've never heard a self-report on Iowa's numbers.

There's sort of a "grad students rights" document signed by a whole bunch of grad schools- it states that students have until 4/15 to commit to a school. Not every school has signed it, but most have, so it's kind of an industry standard. That means that most programs try to make offers well in advance of the deadline so that prospectives can visit and be love bombed. And I know that UT has made all its offers, so has Yale and Ohio, and Brown, and UI Carbondale and Columbia and NYU and Brooklyn, and if you hang out on the general MFA Draft '14 board, the vast majority of fiction/poetry schools (including Iowa) did their interviews and initial notifications in February/March, and are well into the musical chairs wait list game. It seems sort of crazy on Iowa's part to be waiting this long. There aren't that many playwriting applications. If IWW can handle the insane amounts of fiction applications by March, the playwriting section should be able to cope with its much lower numbers.

4/15 is the deadline to commit at most schools. I buy it out of Julliard cause they don't grant a degree, but dang Iowa! They have to be stretching the truth on this one, or else they are just committing to letting EVERY OTHER SCHOOL pick first.

"Better" is the wrong question to ask. You want to think less about what's "better" and more about what's right for you. I'd tell anyone who got a place at both schools to pick Brown, without hesitation, citing funding and fit. (If you get into Brown, it's probably the right place for you- less true of Columbia.) However, that's not what you asked. You asked about where you should spend your application dollars. Given that you are applying to "dozens" of schools, it's kind of weird that you are balancing Columbia against Brown. I have to assume that they are the two schools occupying the "Ivy League" slot in your MFA roster, because otherwise the schools have nothing in common. Brown is fully funded. Columbia is the most expensive MFA you can get. Brown is incredibly selective. Columbia is probably the least selective well-known MFA out there. Brown is VERY experimental. Columbia is more NYC-literary-commercial. If you're a "Brown" kind of writer, then it's a dream school, and you should apply even though it is a crazy long shot. If you can deal with Columbia's tuition, and you want to live in NYC and shoot for book deals, it's as close to a "safety school" as you can get with an MFA (caveat, there are no safety mfa schools). Anyway, it seems right now like you have a lot of research ahead of you. Luckily, you've got time. I'd encourage you to start by articulating your own goals, work and situation. The question you posted here is both too general and too specific to be helpful. There's a lot of back reading to do, and fb groups to lurk on. Also, look into fee waivers to save money at application time. https://www.cic.net/students/freeapp/introduction

I wouldn't think about it as striking a balance between passion and desperation. I'd think about it as making it clear that a school is one of your top choices while also demonstrating that you can act appropriately. It's like dating a sane person, if any of you have ever done that: don't hide your interest in an attempt to seem cool, but don't act like a psycho stalker. Smith encouraged starsandsound to write an email, so it was appropriate even if it was gushing-( btw congrats STarsandsound, I somehow missed your celebration post! yay! You must have showed a lot of awesome in the plays that you submitted. I think not having a full-length play is a substantial handicap, since you have to write full-lengths in most programs. I know someone who got into Ohio with no full-lengths in her portfolio, but the program head MADE HER WRITE A FULL-LENGTH before offering her admission. (She also had a friend in the program advocating for her.)) I agree that it's good to have some contact with the schools besides the app. I think that (most of the time) it's less about standing out than about proving that you are trustworthy and together. Your writing should make you stand out but if you're going to commit to someone for three years, it's really useful to have a sense of them as a solid person who knows how to operate in the theatre world. Here are some random points on how to do it. 1. Leverage any genuine personal connections that you have. Have you worked with an alumn of the program? Take them out for coffee and ask them questions, and see if they'd be willing to write the program head and say "Hey, this great playwright I know is applying." 2. If the teachers have any readings or talkbacks in your area (anything where they are supposed to interact with the public anyway), attend and introduce yourself. "Hi, I'm a playwright. I'm actually thinking about applying to x school." Don't follow them or approach them if they're not in "required interaction with the public mode." 2. If you have time, visit in the fall, but don't be a high-maintenence visitor. A good trick is to write one of the teachers and say "I'm coming into town on x weekend, are there any classes I can sit in on, or can I drop by the office to talk about the program?" Most of the small, funded programs don't have info weekends, so if you write and say "I'd like to come visit- do you have any programs? When's a good time? Can I stay with a student?" it's like you are asking them to arrange a whole thing just for you. If they DO have an info weekend, or if they want you to stay with a student, they'll reach out. Caveat: if you are a finalist, or you are wait listed, DEFINITELY visit in the spring, and feel free to ask for more help. 3. Follow the program's lead. If you get a chilly response, chill out, and stick to following the application guidelines. Keep in mind that schools are very different. Yale gets over 500 applicants. A lot of other schools will get less than 50 (if that doesn't sound like a lot, remember that 3/50 is six percent, which is a very low acceptance rate.) Again, if a school perceives that you're going to keep asking them to hold your hand throughout the application process, you are going to get iced out, especially if they have a lot of low-knowledge applicants (which is going to be true of a famous drama school like Yale- I don't mean dumb applicants, I mean people who haven't done a lot of research and are only applying to the most visible schools). It's like hitting on someone. Never be afraid to take the first step boldly, but only escalate when you get the green light. 4. If a program has a march deadline, APPLY EARLY.

Cathergirl you are awesome! Good tip on the playpen summer internship. The deadline is 4/1 though so you'd better hop to it if you're interested.

It is better to tell them that you need more time to decide. If you pull out after accepting, it causes a lot of problems, and there's no need to piss people off. If they are CGSR compliant, they are supposed to give you until 4/15 to decide. Check here to see if the schools in question have signed the resolution: https://www.cgsnet.org/april-15-resolution If they have signed the resolution, don't stomp in and say "you have to give me till 4/15 to decide." Just go into negotiations with the knowledge that 4/15 is what they owe you. Just write them and say, very nicely "I need to find out some more information from other schools before making my decision. I should be able to tell you by 4/15, but I will tell you as soon as I have the information that I need." If they haven't signed the resolution, do the same thing. If they are going to yank your acceptance because you are waiting to get financial information from another school, you don't want to be there anyway.

p.s. don't forget to read the comments in the Adam S. linked blog post.

@cathergirl I pm'd you, but then I went into the private message section and realized I had messages from a year ago that I hadn't even read yet, so I'm asking again on the forum! My friend has an acceptance at another school, but he still hasn't heard anything from Ohio, and when he sent a message to Charles the reply was kind of cryptic, so he's trying to figure out how their wait list works: Are you saying that you found out about the wait list on Monday, and then got accepted on Wednesday? @glenwood- at the risk of compromising my ability to talk smack, I'm at Michener UT. @barista and lurker32- I feel like I was way too harsh in my assessment of Columbia- I mean, I stand by my advice, but I was phrasing it the way I would talk to someone I knew- not a stranger. If my friend had a fully funded offer at NYU and was considering an unfunded offer at Columbia instead, I would lobby hard for the funded offer. Obviously Columbia has a lot of strengths as a program, but unless you are independently wealthy, I don't think it's offering enough above what NYU can offer while being funded. As for the alumni- Clarence Coo does seem to be doing really, really fantastically well. As for the rest, I don't think Mark Schulz and Winter Miller are early career (I think Schulz got his MFA in the early 2000s, when the program was different), and Jenny Schwartz, having gone through a different program, isn't really someone to consider- she went to Julliard afterwards for playwriting. I'd forgotten that Adam S. was a Columbia alum since I always think of him as a Julliard person. At any rate, here are some of Adam's ambiguous thoughts on having gone into major debt for his MFA: http://aszym.blogspot.com/2009/01/daisey-on-mfas-for-theater-artists.html I do think it is cool that they are actively recruiting internationally. I mean, that might have something to do with the price tag, but I've often thought that my own program needs to do more active recruiting instead of waiting for people to come to us- we could have a much more diverse class if we worked harder at it. also @Barista- there's a ton of summer stuff, but I think you've missed the majority of the deadlines for this summer. I can't think of anything that you can still apply to. Certainly everything Cathergirl listed is gone... I think OOB is over also, but there's some kind of warning on their website, so I'm not gonna check.

Cather, congrats! It's a really cool program. (p.s., when did they tell you that you were on the wait list, and do you know if they've got their whole class set yet?)

@lavender- I didn't want to badmouth your advice- it's always good to keep writing and learning!- but the person who asked about getting more experience had my school as his/her top choice. I know what my school values- they really like to see you getting out there and making things happen. Plus, the op was recently out of undergrad- so it isn't classroom experience that s/he is missing. Also, I don't know much about the two retreats/classes that you recommended, but I definitely got the sense that they were playwriting components in retreats that were more focused on fiction/poetry. In general, I think people looking to make connections in theatre should prioritize events, conferences and classes that are theatre-focused, not writing focused. If you're doing some professional development, and most of the people around you are poets and fiction writers rather than directors, actors producers and designers, you aren't optimizing those PD dollars. I'm also a big believer in making local connections, even though most of my career has involved travel, that wasn't by choice!

I'm going to be very, very straightforward with you. Don't go to Columbia for playwriting, especially if you have another school willing to offer you money. If the "mad funding" from NYU is the one full ride they offer per year? TAKE THAT. That is a serious vote of confidence from a school. (I'm not sure if they've changed their procedures since I was applying, but at that time they gave like ONE full ride per class) My recommendation isn't just about the money. I have a pretty good sense of the state of "emerging playwrights" across America and in NYC, and if you asked me to tell you about fairly recent MFAs from Brown, Yale, NYU (and even Northwestern, although that's skimpier) that are getting fellowships, productions, prominent readings, etc, I could name a bunch. I could also name successful recent MFAs from Ohio, UT, Julliard (not an mfa program, but whatever) Brooklyn College and Indiana, Bloomington- people that I've either met, or read about, or seen their shows, or I've seen that they've won something that I've applied for. But I honestly couldn't name any from Columbia. That doesn't mean there aren't any, but before you make a commitment like that, I'd encourage you to figure out who Columbia's successful grads are, look at their work and their career, and decide if that's what you want. If you like Chuck Mee, there are ways to seek him out as a mentor without enrolling in Columbia.

Rouge, I wasn't telling people not to do MFAs. I am in fact about to graduate from an MFA in playwriting. It'd be super weird to come onto this thread and denigrate the whole concept of MFAs. Someone made a post asking for advice about to get into an MFA program. This person was worried s/he hadn't had enough experience (no readings, no productions.) Someone else recommended taking classes or going on retreats in order to get better rec letters. In my opinion, taking classes shouldn't be as high a priority as getting real-world theatrical experience. In my experience, that's what programs are looking for. The quality of the writing and "fit" are most important, but in terms of non-writing things you can work on and improve, demonstrating your ability to take initiative, work in theater, and put your own shit together is tops.

Y'all, don't take classes. Make theatre. I mean, I guess take classes if you want- deadlines and mentorship are awesome- but if you're fresh out of undergrad, you don't have a lot of experience in theatre, and you think that might be a problem in grad school apps, your first priority shouldn't be taking more classes. Learn about your local theatre scene. Find actors and put on a reading. Put on a fringe show. Get involved with companies. The point of being a playwright is that you can just MAKE something without anyone's permission. That's gotta be the point, cause it sure ain't the money. I don't think readings and productions are about padding your resume. They're about working in theatre. That's what makes us different from fiction and poetry. Publications don't matter, because you can develop your poems alone in a hole. But playwrights have to work with other people, and with audiences. Why yes, I AM avoiding working on my thesis.

Did anyone hear from SIU Carbondale? Asking for a friend.

Pffff. I'm a creepy lurker.

Sally, I think you're in the wrong thread. Post in the playwriting MFAs thread for better info.

Cobbler, no prob! (Looking back, I don't think the other Michener in my year even got a phone interview.) Did you hear about other applicants having interviews this year or something? Cathergirl, as far as I know, there isn't a formal interview process but I think Ohio tries to talk to people that they are interested in.

Here's the thing- it changes every year. So we don't know what's normal either. I was admitted to the Michener about a week after a very brief phone interview. Two of the T&D students did visit for an interview. But then while I was a student it seemed like they were trying to get the ball rolling faster so they could get people down to look at the campus. I don't know if the prospectives were flown down before they were admitted, or if they funded their own trips. Michener will fund you for a visit, but only after you've gotten an offer (and if you don't use the visit, they just give you the cash.) I know T&D also gave some of my friends money to visit after they got an offer. In short, getting a phone interview only doesn't mean you're an alternate. It could literally mean anything.

1. You don't need productions to get into grad school for playwriting anymore than you need publications to get into grad school for fiction. The writing sample is the most important thing. However.... Playwriting grad programs are looking for writers who are theatrical, and have a strong sense of the stage. If you don't have an understanding of how live theatre works as opposed to prose or movies or television, that's going to show up in your writing sample as well as on your resume. Doesn't mean that you won't get in- they can always fall in love with the play you wrote- but if you think you might like playwriting enough to try and get an extremely competitive degree in it, you should invest some time participating in theatre in the wild. Do you already watch a lot of theatre? If not, start. That's the minimum. If you're already doing that, I'd consider trying to find a volunteer position as a stagehand or stage manager. Can you tell me more about the experience you do have? How many plays have you written? How many full lengths vs. shorts? Did you write them in college or afterwards? How did you get involved in a 24-hour festival? Can you continue to work with the people who put on said festival in any capacity? Go ahead and apply, but remember that these programs are insanely hard to get into, and they are not the only way for an inexperienced theatre person to get experience. In fact, I think a grad program is probably the worst place for a non-theatre person to learn what theatre is, but you should remember I'm not a huge fan of academic theatre. (A trait I share with nearly everyone I go to school with.) The great thing about theatre is that you can do it yourself. You don't need lots of money or a stamp of approval from a prestigious institution- you just need some people and a space. Money and stamps are great, but don't wait for 'em, or you'll never get 'em. 2. UT Michener has the *best* funding, but there are tons of programs that fully fund all or most of their students, including UT T&D. Programs will often be a little cagy about discussing their funding on their websites, and it sometimes changes from year to year. If you are in any way unclear, just email them and ask. They won't hesitate to reply. Yale, as far as I know, has funded fully since they stole Paula Vogel from Brown. UCSD, when I checked a few years ago, funds partially- half tuition the first year- full the second... or something like that. I believe Iowa funds fully but is tiered- you have to apply and see what they offer you. Brooklyn doesn't fund but is cheap, and is really your only affordable option for getting an in-city MFA. Less well-known fully funded programs, including Ohio (which I know to be a very strong program) and Indiana, are discussed on this thread.

Jane and Miranda- any more info on Indiana? Anything about how many they're interviewing, etc, etc? (I have a friend who applied).