Decision making: How much does the reputation of program matter? (and R1, R2, R3?, Clinical Science vs. Scientist-Pracitioner)

[KeepOnBrewing]

First, I'm grateful for many peoples' genuine effort to support one another through this forum. I have been encouraged to know that I am not alone in this process. I feel absolutely honored to having received a couple of offers  (which was totally not expected.) I am in a place where I need to make some important and difficult decisions here. I'd greatly appreciate your responses. Especially, I'd appreciate it if you could also share how certain/uncertain you are with the information, so that I can weigh on your information accordingly. Thanks again. 

Reputation of the program: I know that having a super star PI would definitely give me UPs for my future in all I do. But what about the reputation of the program itself? How is the reputation of the program perceived after graduation when getting jobs in medical/academic settings? Aside from obvious names such as Harvard/Yale/UCLA, I'm wondering how others are perceived. I'm thinking about the schools that may be listed 60-70 in US NEWS clinical psych rank. (The methodology that was used in this ranking system is obviously not the most scientific but it seems like it gives a general ranking of the program in the US) 

R1, R2, R3: I'm curious to hear about peoples' perspectives (especially the ones who have been in the field after grad school) on R1,R2,R3 system of the school. In my brief research, this system meant more back in the days. Would R1 recognition give one more advantage in either academic or medical settings? 

Clinical vs. Scientist-Pracitioner: I am planning on pursuing research/clinical work (and also teach on the side) in medical school or children's hospitals affiliated with universities upon graduation. I'm aware that a lot has to do with my own productivity during the program. But I wondered if attending Clinical Science modality program (rather than Scientist-Pracitioner model) would give me more advantage. 

Academy of Psychological Clinical Science: Lastly, GENERALLY, among clinical science programs, would the the ones that are part of Academy of Psychological Clinical Science, be more prestigious than the ones who are not part of the program?

Thank you for your time and your support!

 

[b_l91]

I had mostly these same questions when I got home from interviews, so I reached out to one of my undergrad mentors (who is the DCT at that institution), and regarding R1 vs. R2 and clinical science vs. scientist-practitioner, this is what she had to say: "picking a program is all about the match. If it is a good fit for you, then that is the place for you. You'll have to trust your instincts--as long as the programs also look good with regard to internship placement, etc., which I'm sure they do." Not terribly specific but the idea is that as long as the program's history (APA accreditation, match rates, licensure rates, EPPP scores, graduate placement, etc.) indicates their students are successful, then the deciding factor should be match with faculty and climate of the lab/program and how likely it is to get you where you want to be. I also applied to a mixture of R1/R2 and CS/S-P programs and I think these various metrics are all something I'll weigh in my decision, but they won't be the only things in consideration.

Edited February 20, 2018 by b_l91

[KeepOnBrewing]

Err, I wanted to "reply to the reply" but I couldn't find that reply button! Maybe someone can give me a quick help here haha

Yes - completely agree with @b_l91's comment. And thanks for sharing that you also had similar questions too, btw =) 

I have a undergraduate degree from a state school and a master's degree from an Ivy institution. In my experience, whenever I go for interviews or presentations, the way people responded to me were different as soon as I mention the Ivy name. In a way, I had to do less work to "prove" myself during my conversations. I understand that MOST of psych phd programs are field specific (ie. there may be schools that we may never heard of for specific subfields) in their reputations and maybe this is how "reputation" will be as we go higher in our education. 

Knowing that personal/professional match are big factors, I'm curious to hear the peoples' stories/experiences/thoughts who may have experienced their reputation of programs giving Ups (or even Downs). I think it's important to speculate and question all corners in making decisions =) 

[JoePianist]

19 hours ago, KeepOnBrewing said:

Reputation of the program: I know that having a super star PI would definitely give me UPs for my future in all I do. But what about the reputation of the program itself? How is the reputation of the program perceived after graduation when getting jobs in medical/academic settings? Aside from obvious names such as Harvard/Yale/UCLA, I'm wondering how others are perceived. I'm thinking about the schools that may be listed 60-70 in US NEWS clinical psych rank. (The methodology that was used in this ranking system is obviously not the most scientific but it seems like it gives a general ranking of the program in the US) 

R1, R2, R3: I'm curious to hear about peoples' perspectives (especially the ones who have been in the field after grad school) on R1,R2,R3 system of the school. In my brief research, this system meant more back in the days. Would R1 recognition give one more advantage in either academic or medical settings? 

Clinical vs. Scientist-Pracitioner: I am planning on pursuing research/clinical work (and also teach on the side) in medical school or children's hospitals affiliated with universities upon graduation. I'm aware that a lot has to do with my own productivity during the program. But I wondered if attending Clinical Science modality program (rather than Scientist-Pracitioner model) would give me more advantage. 

Academy of Psychological Clinical Science: Lastly, GENERALLY, among clinical science programs, would the the ones that are part of Academy of Psychological Clinical Science, be more prestigious than the ones who are not part of the program?

1. You'll come to find that the US News' Clinical Psychology Ranking list is rather deceptive. Almost all the programs ranked 1-100 are actually solid, including those between 50-100. Within the Clinical Psychology field, "brand name" recognition (e.g., Yale, Harvard, UCLA, etc.) is secondary to actual student outcomes and quality of training. When applying for internships and jobs within Clinical Psychology, the people hiring will recognize the programs with solid training and excellent student outcomes too. 

2. If you're interested in going into research or academia (i.e., professor) for a career, then you'll want the programs with the R1 distinction. Specifically, R1 schools will typically offer the most opportunities to get involved in research and publications due to their volume of research grant funding.

3. Clinical Science vs Scientist-Practitioner: Either training model will properly prepare you for your specified career interests. More importantly, though, I'd suggest you ask your prospective programs for data on what types of jobs and settings that their graduates typically go into, which should clue you in to the program's strength. There are some programs within BOTH training models that primarily focus on producing full-time researchers and future professors, and there are some programs from BOTH training models that might have an even mix of researchers, professors, and clinicians produced. 

4. I'm actually more familiar with the Psychological Clinical Science Accreditation System (PCSAS) as the "premier" membership to which Clinical Science programs should be a part of. It's the equivalent of the American Psychological Association (APA) accreditation for the standard of quality for all Clinical Psychology programs overall. 

Hope this is a bit helpful - good luck on decisions!

Edited February 21, 2018 by JoePianist

[KeepOnBrewing]

Thank you for your response, @JoePianist. I'm curious to hear little bit more about your knowledge/experience of PCSAS. I know that there are 50+ programs under Academy of Psychological Clinical Science but not all of them are part of PCSAS, which was bit odd for me. There were also programs that are NOT part of Academy but also in PCSAS. PCSAS FAQ by Mcfall seems to give a good overview of PCSAS but still doesn't answer my question of the purpose of Academy if they were going to create PCSAS. I'd appreciate hearing your observation/experience of PCSAS programs and their benefits (and even downsides if you've seen them). Thank you!

[JoePianist]

13 hours ago, KeepOnBrewing said:

Thank you for your response, @JoePianist. I'm curious to hear little bit more about your knowledge/experience of PCSAS. I know that there are 50+ programs under Academy of Psychological Clinical Science but not all of them are part of PCSAS, which was bit odd for me. There were also programs that are NOT part of Academy but also in PCSAS. PCSAS FAQ by Mcfall seems to give a good overview of PCSAS but still doesn't answer my question of the purpose of Academy if they were going to create PCSAS. I'd appreciate hearing your observation/experience of PCSAS programs and their benefits (and even downsides if you've seen them). Thank you!

So, I can't say that I know much about the Academy vs PCSAS, though from my understanding, PCSAS is the accreditation entity under the Academy umbrella. And, I do know that several Clinical Science programs are pushing for using PCSAS as the training model's accreditation standard, with the hope of distancing themselves from the APA accreditation standard (though, I can't say I know the specifics as to the reasoning for this). PCSAS is still a relatively young accreditation standard, too, and has not yet been widely adopted.

Long story short, all you need to be concerned about right now is whether your prospective programs are APA accredited. In addition, you need to look into the percentage of students from your prospective programs who were successfully matched with an APA-accredited internship, which will clue you in to how well that particular program will prepare you as a competitive career candidate after graduating with your Ph.D

Edited February 21, 2018 by JoePianist

[KeepOnBrewing]

Thank you for engaging with my questions and sharing thoughtful responses everyone! I hope to share some good news with you soon.