does having a master's help?

[Roll Right]

Lol, I had a feeling this would turn into an angry thread.

[newage2012]

Wow, you already have your next 20 years all planned out? Slow down. Live in the moment. Geez.

Yes. Year 2012 is coming, and we may not be around much longer.

And speaking of getting into "financial mess" by borrowing, as long as you are getting Stafford loans (and not private loans), you can always opt for the ICR repayment plan, which limits your payment to a certain % of your income. If you can't get that paid off in 25 years, your entire balance is forgiven.

[lily_]

yeah, directing obscenities at me really helps the OP decide on grad school. You are so helpful.

I decided on grad school a long time ago. The thread was asking, specifically, if getting a master's degree would be helpful to my pursuit of a PhD. You argued that it was not, and I should probably quit (not in those words, but it's safe to say that was the gist of your posts). Frankly, I feel that his posts were helpful, and gave me hope (even if said hope is, according to you, foolish).

I'm glad you got into a program and have it all together. I'm confident, someday I will too, even if this round of applications is discouraging.

[Sparky]

Lily, one other thing that an MA will give you time/space to do is work on languages. I don't know what your language training is like right now, but a good chunk of the secondary scholarship on the ancient Near East is in German and (to a lesser extent, maybe) French, so having 2 years to add those to your CV or improve them if you've got 'em is always good. And that's not to mention primary research languages! (Yikes, what have you got there, Akkadian? Sumerian? Get as many as possible.)

Language is a big reason MAs are common for people applying to PhD programs in medieval history and lit, and one of the reasons it's pretty much an unspoken rule that religion/theology PhD programs require an M* degree even if they say they accept applicants directly out of undergrad. (I know those aren't your fields, but a similar principle is at work, I think).

[Tiglath-Pileser III]

I decided on grad school a long time ago. The thread was asking, specifically, if getting a master's degree would be helpful to my pursuit of a PhD. You argued that it was not, and I should probably quit (not in those words, but it's safe to say that was the gist of your posts). Frankly, I feel that his posts were helpful, and gave me hope (even if said hope is, according to you, foolish).

I'm glad you got into a program and have it all together. I'm confident, someday I will too, even if this round of applications is discouraging.

A Master's degree may or may not be helpful for overcoming a low undergraduate GPA. But, it probably won't hurt either. It sometimes can be useful to give apcomms an idea of what your performance will be like in a graduate setting. While the graduate school is more variable, getting A's is no less difficult. So, if you have mostly A's in your graduate GPA, it does give some indication as to the probability of success. However, if you have mostly B's, your chances of getting in would not be improved. Also, those who pursue a masters prior to a PhD are often more successful than those who go straight into a PhD from a bachelors, since there is less of a shock when they arrive at grad school. And there has been some push in recent years to get PhDs through the system rather than having them languish as ABDs.

So far, it hasn't helped me get into a PhD program but doesn't seem to have hurt either. It has compelled one school offer me a "try before they buy" MA. So the next time I apply for a PhD, I'll have 3 MAs. Sooner or later, someone may give me a shot at a PhD. Of course, if one of my PhD applications pans out, I will add a reply (or edit this one) to reflect that a masters degree does help.

Stay the course...

[lily_]

Lily, one other thing that an MA will give you time/space to do is work on languages. I don't know what your language training is like right now, but a good chunk of the secondary scholarship on the ancient Near East is in German and (to a lesser extent, maybe) French, so having 2 years to add those to your CV or improve them if you've got 'em is always good. And that's not to mention primary research languages! (Yikes, what have you got there, Akkadian? Sumerian? Get as many as possible.)

Language is a big reason MAs are common for people applying to PhD programs in medieval history and lit, and one of the reasons it's pretty much an unspoken rule that religion/theology PhD programs require an M* degree even if they say they accept applicants directly out of undergrad. (I know those aren't your fields, but a similar principle is at work, I think).

Yes, languages are huge! I have an intermediate reading ability in German, and plan on minimally studying French while doing the master's. What I really need is Akkadian, which is difficult to find. Also, I don't know how it is for medieval history or lit, but archaeology is a bit of a mixed bag. There are departments that take a more classical approach which heavily focuses on languages, while others are taking a more anthropological approach - I'm more interested in the anthropological approach, but the languages are still important anyway. Plus it would really be awesome to be able to read the Epic of Gilgamesh in one of the original languages it was written in!

[Tiglath-Pileser III]

Yes, languages are huge! I have an intermediate reading ability in German, and plan on minimally studying French while doing the master's. What I really need is Akkadian, which is difficult to find. Also, I don't know how it is for medieval history or lit, but archaeology is a bit of a mixed bag. There are departments that take a more classical approach which heavily focuses on languages, while others are taking a more anthropological approach - I'm more interested in the anthropological approach, but the languages are still important anyway. Plus it would really be awesome to be able to read the Epic of Gilgamesh in one of the original languages it was written in!

If you want to read the Epic of Gilgamesh in the "original" language, be sure to add the Old Babylonian dialect to your list, although it is also available in the Neo-Assyrian dialect as well. Be warned, sight reading Akkadian is very difficult to achieve. Huehnergard will become your best friend. I picked up five languages while doing my masters degrees. So, I would concur that it is a very important part of a masters degree.

[lily_]

I am not saying you should "quit" on going to grad school. I am saying that a strong performance in a Masters program cannot totally and completely reconcile a less than stellar performance at the undergraduate level. I think others have echoed that sentiment. For that reason, I would be careful about spending tens of thousands of dollars going into a terminal Masters program with the sole intention of getting a PhD and no backup plan. More often that not, even with a strong Masters GPA, PhD enrollment is extremely limited in these highly specialized fields and most applicants vying for these spots are very qualified to begin with.

For example, you cited Berkeley's Anthro department in an earlier post. Indeed the department seems to regard those with only a bachelors or a MA in anthropology as competitive for admissions, but it further goes on to state that "the University's Graduate Division requires a combined junior and senior grade point average of at least 3.0 of an applicant to be admitted." My point is that you should really check in with PhD programs that you are interested in and make sure you are even eligible to apply in the first place before spending money on a MA.

I'll repeat myself again. This round of applications (in which Berkeley was not on my list) I actually visited 6 universities, met with faculty members and the people I thought would most likely be my advisers, simply because I felt that was necessary to make an educated opinion on where to apply. I narrowed that down to 2 universities based on these meetings. I found I was not eligible for one program, and three others did not seem like the best fit for me based on how the programs were set up and what people specialized in and focused on. I would obviously do this again when I reapply for the PhD in the future.

I said Berkeley as an example because one individual from the college I am applying to for my master's, earned their PhD from there after earning their MA from this program. I know that's not a guarantee. My heart is not set on working there, and I believe that they do not have anyone currently in the department I would be interested in working with. There are schools, top tier, and tier 2, that do no have hard and fast rules about undergraduate GPA. Infact, the 6 schools that I visited this fall, did not.

Furthermore, archaeology, unlike many fields, in order for you to be eligible for permanent employment rather than contract, temporary jobs, requires you to have a master's. It also opens up the possibility of teaching at most community colleges. So, although you may disagree, I feel that I am making the right choice. Again, the title of this post was will a master's degree help me gain admission to a PhD program, not will it guarantee me the career of my dreams or oodles of money somewhere down the road.

I appreciate all of your advice, but I feel at this point it's getting a bit redundant. I know it's a gamble, you have made your point. Thanks.

[lily_]

Oh and Seadub, I just calculated my junior and senior year as an undergrad - my GPA for those combined years was a 3.25. Guess I'd have a chance at Berkeley anyway Thanks for pointing that out!

[lily_]

Ok, so what, exactly, was the point of your question then? Sorry, but it seems like you are just answering your own question now. You've evidently made up your mind about getting an MA, so obviously you must "think" that getting an MA will help you get a PhD. I never said anything about a dream career or money. I answered your question by saying that your prospects for a PhD are ambiguous at best.

You can't ask a question, get a reply, decide you don't like it, and then answer your own question for yourself. If you're going to do that, don't bother asking others' opinions in the first place.

The point was to see if it was possible, if others had accomplished the same thing under similar conditions. I never said I had not made up my mind or not, it's been made up since I left college and have been working towards improving my record and adding to my CV to become an attractive candidate. Evidently, what I have accomplished thus far is not enough, so what's next? Try for the MA. It may help, it may not, but I think, especially after reading this forum and talking to undergraduate professors and colleagues that it's worth a shot. You're right, life is not fair, believe me I completely understand that concept. However, I believe that nothing worth doing is supposed to be easy or fair.

I never said I didn't like your advice. I read your articles and everything you said. I disagreed. You did start out talking about how many people think that getting an MA increases their earning potential, at least that's the point I got from the NY Times article you shared. That's not why I'm in this field.

I can ask a question, get a reply I disagree with, and decide to do things my way. Which is exactly what I am going to do. If I fail and end up thousands of dollars in debt working at McDonald's in three years, I'll post a new topic that says, "and seadub was right" and warn everyone else from getting a terminal master's. In the meantime, I'll keep working on my SOP for this master's program.

[lily_]

Lily,

It is obvious that you have not done your homework on anything related to grad school if you weren't aware that your performance in upper division courses is more important than anything you do your freshman and sophomore year. Have you really not realized that until now? Yikes.

And didn't you just say that "my heart is not set on working there (Berkeley), and I believe that they do not have anyone currently in the department I would be interested in working with"? I mean, it is a bit embarrassing how defensive you got with your "I didn't want to work at Berkeley ANYWAY" excuse when you originally thought you were ineligible to apply. You are not a child anymore. No need to feign apathy.

I was aware of that, thanks. It wasn't that I thought I was ineligible to apply. I looked into the department when I was shopping around for grad programs. There was no one to study under for what I want to specialize in. Why waste the application fee if you're not a good fit for the department?

You're not my parent, nor my adviser, no need to give me a lecture about things I appreciate your advice, have a nice evening and good luck.

Edited March 1, 2010 by lily_

[lily_]

It looks like you're well versed in using the edit key as well. I guess that's what it's there for!

I wasn't trying to "get back at you." The only thing I have said that could be construed as an insult is that you appear to be redundant.

[pea-jay]

Wow, you already have your next 20 years all planned out? Slow down. Live in the moment. Geez.

I wouldnt say planned out, but goals are nice. Don't want to close out opportunities. On the other hand there isnt any reason why I wouldnt be happy 20 years from now working in a totally unrelated profession so long as I got there by my own choice.

[Tiglath-Pileser III]

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

Those who dwell upon the past are doomed to relive it.

[Genomic Repairman]

Lily,

it can't hurt to get a masters, it will probably only help too. And if your heart is set on it, then go for it kid. Your life will be filled with c*cknob naysayers like seadouche. Just ignore them. Best of luck.

[Piwi]

I just want to say that in my case, I believe I am getting into better PhD programs now (currently in a terminal MA program, graduating in May) than I would have had I applied last year (w/o MA).

(Note: Statistics may be different in this regard, since it's not uncommon for first year PhD students to already have a masters.)

I made the choice to not apply for PhD last year (and to apply for MA instead) for multiple reasons: (1) my undergrad is fairly unknown, so having an MA from a well known institution might help the application, (1a) I had good grades as an undergrad, but because its a lesser known school, adcomms may not know how rigorous the classes are. Thus, having strong grades from a well known institution reinforces that my GPA was not a result of easy classes; (2) many statistics jobs are available for someone with a masters so it is certainly not a waste if I got rejected from all PhDs, (2a) it is only a one year program, so I am not spending too huge of an amount; (3) it affirms for myself (and adcomms) that this is truly what I want to be studying; (4) I've been able to add to my CV, and gain access to more "famous" recommenders; and (5) my SO is at this school, so we get a full year of being in the same place before spending four years long distance.

While reason (5) was originally my main reason, the others are all true (and are how I managed to justify it to myself). Because I didn't apply for PhDs last year, I cannot say definitively that I did better this year than I would have without the MA. However, I honestly cannot imagine that I would have gotten into these schools last year (my background was strong enough that I think I'd have gotten in places, just not the same caliber places).

Again, statistics may be different than other programs, and a masters (as others have stated, though I think we all knew this anyway) is not a guarantee. But I wanted to point out that in my case it really did help. Ie, in answer to your question, "Yes, it can help."