Religion PhD - Results Page

[thatindividual]

I suppose there are a number of variables to consider (what your emphasis/specialty is, your areas of competence), but yes, most likely you are looking at teaching at some religious affiliated school in a religion department - maybe teaching a philosophy of religion class or something like that. I applied at UBC (British Columbia) and they explicitly mentioned that they DO NOT recognize A.M./divinity degrees. I don't know if a degree from Yale, Harvard, U of C etc... would serve as an exception, my suspicion is that it would. Also, if you want to a program like U of C you are looking at getting an actual Ph.D which would certainly help when applying to more secular schools. Still, I'd have to say the prospects aren't great (you're getting pigeonholed into a certain niche) and the prospects already aren't great to begin. I hate to discourage you from your dream but these are some things I would CAREFULLY consider before adding to your debt.

One of my professors graduated from U of C, got his A.M. and Ph.D there. He is the school chaplain, teaches theology/Christian History courses/Environmental Ethics. He also got his B.A. in philosophy after a while, I don't know if thats something my school encouraged him to do or not.

[tingbaring]

I'm a Yale Div. grad. As a YDS student, you are able to take classes any where in the University. Philosophy of Religion folk have had great success in getting into PhD programs in philosophy.

[religiousphilosopher]

I saw that someone got into the MDiv program at Chicago, with full tuition scholarship and a stipend. Is this normal for MDiv students? ... should I have applied as an MDiv student?

[religiousphilosopher]

I'm a Yale Div. grad. As a YDS student, you are able to take classes any where in the University. Philosophy of Religion folk have had great success in getting into PhD programs in philosophy.

What degree did you get at Yale Div? What was the funding like for you?

[tingbaring]

MAR in Systematic Theology; Full tuition. YDS is trying to begin paying full tuition for all Masters students, from what I understand.

[rafnow]

I saw that someone got into the MDiv program at Chicago, with full tuition scholarship and a stipend. Is this normal for MDiv students? ... should I have applied as an MDiv student?

UC Divinity School has several (five?) ministerial fellowships (tuition + stipend) that they give out to incoming MDiv students. At least they did when I was there 14 years ago. (God I'm old.)

[religiousphilosopher]

MAR in Systematic Theology; Full tuition. YDS is trying to begin paying full tuition for all Masters students, from what I understand.

Good to know! I should find out soon. This financial information will really make my decision easier...

[cmmimg]

Yes, as I already posted earlier, U of C has much better financial support for the MDiv program. This is likely because people who want to go to Chicago are not usually the same people who really want to get an MDiv. However, the divinity school has to keep the MDiv program going because it is written in their charter that so long as the divinity school exists an MDiv program must also exist. I believe that there has been some renewed interest in building up and supporting the MDiv program in recent years, as I've been told from someone who got their MDiv and Ph.D. there recently.

As to masters funding...although I applaud that there are schools out there which do in fact regularly fully fund their students, the provided list itself makes it clear why this is happening. These are not first tier schools for religion programs (at least not in fields of my concern) and were never recommended to me by advisors and professors as potential schools. Below is a list of schools where full funding for the MA/MTS is the exception, not the rule.

Yale Divinity

Candler School of Theology (Emory)

University of Chicago

Harvard Divinity

Duke Divinity

It's pretty understandable, really, why these schools don't give full funding--they don't have TA's for the most part, and they can still attract the students. Judging from what everyone has been talking about in regards to Ph.D. applications, these are much more along the lines of the places you want to go if you want to have a chance in this highly competitve field (again, at least in the areas I am concerned with/related to). The big exception is Notre Dame's MTS program, which always fully funds every student. Of course, they only accept 21 students.

[Philmajor]

If anyone else is on the wait list at UChicago Divinity and applied to the Philosophy of Religion area - 2 offers were made, both are internal candidates and both are accepting. Therefore, there isn't a waitlist - we've been rejected.

I have to figure out what type of work I'm qualified to do and start searching. Does anyone have any suggestions, I'm feeling very lost.

[religiousphilosopher]

Full tuition scholarships to Harvard and Yale...

oy... what should I do? Which is the "best" school that will give me most academic promise?

[bah]

religiousphilosopher:

you should be grateful for the dilemma. given your interest in philosophy of religion i would go to yale. but it doesn't matter much in terms of 'best'. kind of a silly question at the master's level. at the doctoral level what will matter is the specific person or people you want to work with.

philmajor:

i'm sorry to hear you're in that position. the question is, what do you *really* want to do?

if you really want to be in academia then you should try reapplying next year, and just spread yourself wider. you can spend the meantime making yourself more marketable by picking up a language, say. there are ways to do this without spending tons of money.

don't feel too discouraged: many people get rejected their first round, and often times after having applied to several programs. also, a committee of strangers can't really assess your worth as a scholar, much less as a human being, by glancing at your personal statement. this sucks, i know, but it's not the end of the world.

if you're fed up with academia, it might be time to start thinking about the many, many potential things one can do to better humanity and the world that don't involve 7-10 years of degrading doctoral work: inner city school teacher, social worker, public defender, park ranger, etc. etc.

[Philmajor]

Thanks bah!

I had a feeling I wouldn't be accepted but the finality of it is crushing. I'm sure there are many options but for the last 4 or 5 years I always thought I'd study and get a position teaching and researching at the university level. I have 2 languages - French and Sanskrit. I had hoped to take a intensive summer program in Tibetan but that deadline is gone and I'm broke

I'm not interested in teaching inner city children - I'm thinking about ESL in Korea. I had seriously considered it prior to applying for my master's and I wonder if now would be a good opportunity. The 9-5 office jobs don't seems to be very interesting; perhaps I'm just missing something.

[religiousphilosopher]

religiousphilosopher:

you should be grateful for the dilemma. given your interest in philosophy of religion i would go to yale. but it doesn't matter much in terms of 'best'. kind of a silly question at the master's level. at the doctoral level what will matter is the specific person or people you want to work with.

Yeah, I am! I cannot believe it, to be honest.

[religiousphilosopher]

I'm not interested in teaching inner city children - I'm thinking about ESL in Korea. I had seriously considered it prior to applying for my master's and I wonder if now would be a good opportunity. The 9-5 office jobs don't seems to be very interesting; perhaps I'm just missing something.

The pay is supposedly really good in Japan. http://www.jetprogramme.org/

Do you think you'll apply to Chicago again next year?

[Philmajor]

I'm going to take the year and re-evaluate my goals. If I do decide to reapply next cycle I will apply to Chicago but I will be applying to many other universities. The internal application process for Chicago wasn't as difficult or time consuming as applying as an external candidate so it was really a no-brainer. Being on the quarter system doesn't allow for any "free" time to pull together applications, essays, transcripts, etc.

If I decide to stay in Chicago and not head overseas I just hope to find a position that isn't so boring that I want to claw my eyes out before noon time :roll:

[Revolage]

Philmajor,

Ah. Sorry to hear the news. I had suspected that internal candidates had an advantage in this process - it just seems hard to beat when they already have well-established contacts with the faculty who have already reviewed and commented on their writing samples. Add to that the fact that the process is simpler than the mess us "externals" have to go through, and there seems to be a clear advantage. i'm sorry that advantage didn't work to *your* benefit.

As others have already posted, don't give up hope. Many of us (self included) hit .000 our first time up. I've already posted a few pages back as to what I think people should do during that year off. I would certainly suggest applying again next year, and broadening your school base. Despite the frequent references to the same small number of schools on this forum, there are a *lot* of programs in the United States dealing with religion and philosophy of religion. I realized during my year off that, even though school reputation and faculty are important factors, I ultimately wanted to go to a program where I can study and just focus on what I want to do. Maybe it's the anti-materialistic aspect of my nature, but I became less cocnerned with prestige and more concerned with finding my niche and being content, especially when I realized that a lot of people that I respected didn't go to big name schools. For example, Paul Copan got his PhD in Marquette's Theology program. He's now a prof at Palm Beach Atlantic University. It's not a prestigious post, but he's publishing a great deal in philosophy of religion and doing some very important work. He's one of the reason I'm (still) hoping to get into Marquette.

Anyway, let me know what other counsel I can offer. And consider Boston University next year. I mean, where else can you get an Institute for Philosophy and Religion (http://www.bu.edu/ipr/)?

[Philmajor]

Thanks for the kind words Revolage. Have you heard from BU on funding yet? I should think that would happen soon so that decisions can be made.

I will certainly spread my wings further next time around and I hope to be a stronger candidate. I'm not sure what I will do this coming year but somehow I'll manage and my family is being amazing with their support.

Though I'm not attending this year I will continue to read and post here so keep me updated on your decisions. My fingers are crossed that Marquette comes through for you.

BTW - I assume you're over the worst of the flu?

[Revolage]

Eh...I'm over most of the flu, but now the wife and son have it. So, I'm nursing them to health as well. And no, no word from BU yet.

Have you considered adjuncting? There are a zillion opportunities in Chicago and the surrounding suburbs. I know you'd rather just take time to let all of this sink in before committing to any one course of action, but now would be a good time to get your vita out.

[Philmajor]

Adjuncting? I hadn't even given that a thought - could you perhaps explain how one would go about doing that?

Why is BU taking so long with their funding decisions? Do they really think anyone will accept/decline without all the necessary information?

[Stud. Theol.]

To philmajor and anyone else who may not gain acceptance this year,

Please don't take this episode as a referrendum on your scholarly prospects. As may other posters have pointed out, judging any person's ability from things a 1-2 page statement and a ridiculous test involves wild guesswork. Everyone at our point has fairly strong grades and good recommendations; it's just hard to differentiate people. Some really stand out but most of us need good luck and good timing.

And as Revolage made clear, if you know you're capable you can find excellent programs and individuals to work with at places with a less prestigious name. Great scholars come from all over the place, there's no need to try to fit a particular mold. So definitely try to cast your net wider.

For me, getting shut out two years ago was a terribly humiliating experience. The only thing I've ever really had going for me is that I'm usually the smartest guy in the class--I can't dance, office work bores me to tears, and my chances of ever getting picked up in the NFL draft slips farther away each year. But I'm fairly good with ideas. It's been that way since I was a kid and most people here are probably in the same boat. There's no horn tooting going on here, it's just the way it is for most people who even consider doing doctoral work. But something very good came of it. My humiliation yeilded more humility and this is a hugely important character quality of any serious scholar. I expect to have many more humbling experiences in the near future, but now I'm glad to have them.

I don't know if others will have or need an experience like that but a rejection can actually be a great opportunity to re-evaluate your priorities and goals if not a blessing in disguise. Don't let the passing guess of some overworked individual put an end to your dream. I personally have a hard time trusting people who have never really had a crushing failure. It so vitally important to being the best scholar, person, mother, father, or friend you can be. So accept it, internalize it, be thanful for it, and just keep going.

[Philmajor]

Stud Theol, Very well put! I completely agree that when I look back on this moment this rejection will be one of the best things that could have happened. Even though, at this moment, I can't imagine not being an academic, perhaps that's not what I'm meant to do. My first goal is to get over the panic and figure out what kind of job I could get. Bills will need to be paid and student loans are going to start rolling in. I've looked at the standard job boards and the office jobs are of no interest, the NFL won't draft me nor will the NHL, perhaps I'll take my guitar and play for food Unless you have some suggestions? Revolage suggested finding adjunct positions - it's a possibility - any more ideas?

[Revolage]

I'd just like to second Stud. Theol's mention of humility. I'm tired of arrogant scholars, and it's especially shameful in religious studies. I too was greatly humbled by being shut out last year, but I'm using it to keep my head at ground level as I proceed.

Philmajor: How to adjunct?

First, go to the websites of colleges in your geographic location. Here's a listing of colleges in Chicago (http://www.50states.com/college/chicago.IL.htm) and Illinois (http://www.50states.com/college/illinois.htm). Community colleges will allow you to teach with an M.A., but some four-year schools will also. Now, I'm not sure about your specific program at Chicago, but since you're a religious person, you may have a rougher time finding positions at secular schools. Most schools have a World Religions course or its counterpart that you could teach. I'm not sure if you could teach, say, an Ethics or Introduction to Philosophy course. If so, that would help. You definitely will want to consider Christian/Catholic schools since they'll naturally line up with your M.A.

Now, once you've chosen a group of schools (I'd aim for 15 or so), go to the websites and find the religion or philosophy departments. Then, send the chair a nice introductory email with your vita attached. Here's the email I came up with which has been quite productive in getting return emails;

"Good morning!

My name is John Doe, a graduate student in the Philosophy Department at State University. I will graduate with my M.A. in Philosophy in a few weeks, and I was writing to inquire as to whether there were any faculty openings available over the next academic year, particularly in the philosophy or religious studies disciplines (I'm deferring PhD plans for one year).

Along with my philosophy degree, I have an M.A. in Christian History and Theology from ABC College, and a B.A. in Linguistics from Mountain University.

In addition to extensive experience as a graduate teaching assistant at State University (over 100 students each semester), I also had the privilege of teaching a course in philosophy last summer at a local community college (Smallville Community College). In this capacity, I had full responsibility for the course and received excellent evaluations from my students.

Being in the midst of a challenging graduate program, and having already

earned a graduate degree from a well-respected theology department, I am

prepared to teach a variety of courses in philosophy and religion,

especially:

Introduction to Philosophy

Introduction to Greek Philosophy

Symbolic Logic

Critical Thinking/Reasoning

Philosophy of Religion

World Religions

Ethics

Apologetics

Theology

I would welcome the opportunity to sit down and discuss any

opportunities that may exist at XYZ College.

My CV is attached for your consideration, and I look forward to speaking with you soon.

Sincerely,

Revolage"

There is always a huge demand for adjuncts, so if you are thorough and persistent, you'll find more than enough openings. Each semester I've adjuncted, I've had more offers than I could accept.

Some advice: when you interview, find out what freedom you'll have in the course. Some schools have the syllabus already prepared and also have the textbooks chosen. Personally, I like to do my own thing, so I prefer schools that will let me craft the syllabus from scratch and choose my own textbook(s).

Community colleges don't pay well (another reason to also consider four-year colleges in your search) - on average, they pay around $1,500 per 3-credit course. State universities pay a bit more - Northern Illinois University, for example, pays $3,500 per course. If you can, see if you can teach online courses - those seem to be a growing trend, and you may be able to get several of those (and get paid for each one) even though you won't have to teach in person.

Okay, I have a lot more advice, but I'll stop for now. Hope that was helpful.

[Philmajor]

Thanks Revolage for taking the time to answer my question(s). I would love to hear the rest of your advice, when you have time to type it up, of course.

[idanceliketaffy]

I think the trick would be to illustrate why, in your personal statement, you're interested in pursuing philology when you've (thus far) gotten an M.A. in a different concentration. What they need to see is that 1) there's a logical reason you're pursuing it (given your background, you became interested in it because when you were doing an M.A. in this subfield, you found that ::blank:::, leading you to become intersted in your current subfield) and 2) that you show evidence that you are academically able to do it (and the fact that you've acquired other languages proves quite a bit.) It seems like your fear was that your interest would seem too random (that admissions committees would be thinking essentially, why is (s)he doing this now...? (S)he has no background in it!). I think you can prove why in a good personal statement. Also, next year, you could always check into applying for fully funded M.A./Ph.D. programs if you feel strongly about getting a second M.A. -- I would ask the Religious Studies departments that you're interested in if they think this is a viable option. I would just hate to see someone go more in debt if they didn't have to!

I did exactly this in my personal statement. I basically provided the context of why I chose to pursue Jewish Studies, and what led me to philology, what languages I've taken, et cetera. I was not afraid that my interest would seem random, as it is a logical progression of narrowing interest from Religion --> Jewish Studies --> Hebrew Bible --> Semitic Philology. Semitic Philology is typically an emphasis in the broader field of Hebrew Bible, so they are connected in many ways. It makes sense to me, and it was a decent personal statement to me (maybe not to the ad coms), but I showed it to loads of people for constructive criticism, including my friend who is getting her PhD in linguistics.

Regardless, I'm discussing my application with HDS this week, so I don't make the same mistakes that I did before (whatever they happen to be) when I reapply to programs this fall. I also am thinking of other alternatives to academia, like archaeology digs, et cetera. We'll see what happens.

[tiredofrejection]

OK theology brain trust. Here's a quandry for you....

Funding aside, which is the better school (for ethics): the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley or Claremont Graduate University.

I have offers from both, and while there are still some schools who haven't let me know yet, I believe it will ultimately come down to these two.