Tough call!

[Strong Flat White]

There are some who know the full extent of my plan to switch fields, from IR to English Lit (Branwen, namely). I described in another thread that I had met with a department who had been encouraging. I got the impression that I could apply to an MA program to become eligible for PhD programs. However, that was from the English department, who advised that I check things out with the DGS. Which, of course, I did, but predictably my inquiry bounced around for a while before landing with a staff member who was both with GS as well as English. She recommended that I ask the person who originally advised that I ask DGS - the graduate chair.

What this means is that I never got a concrete answer about whether or not my application would even be considered, since I'm not eligible for the MA. True, the graduate chair was encouraging, but nobody could say, unequivocally, that if I applied, that my application would actually make it across her and the committee's desk.

I've recently been told by an altogether NEW member to the party that eligibility to the MA is more lenient and that my application would, indeed, be considered. However, this would mean enrolling in killer coursework for the Fall without much assurance that I'd be successful in the MA admissions process.

That leaves another option -- simply readmit as a degree-seeking undergrad, and get an English BA.

What would others do? There's no danger of not getting into a BA in English program, but it does add a lot of time to what I'm trying to do. On the other hand, applying to the MA seems marginally nuts. I'm already coming off a rejection and I just have a hard time imagining a scenario where I get accepted (anywhere, ever!) - much less to a program for which I'm under-qualified. One way or another, I think I'll go back into the classroom to get eligible to switch fields, but the question is, which classroom will I be sitting in?

[PaperChaser]

There are some who know the full extent of my plan to switch fields, from IR to English Lit (Branwen, namely). I described in another thread that I had met with a department who had been encouraging. I got the impression that I could apply to an MA program to become eligible for PhD programs. However, that was from the English department, who advised that I check things out with the DGS. Which, of course, I did, but predictably my inquiry bounced around for a while before landing with a staff member who was both with GS as well as English. She recommended that I ask the person who originally advised that I ask DGS - the graduate chair.

What this means is that I never got a concrete answer about whether or not my application would even be considered, since I'm not eligible for the MA. True, the graduate chair was encouraging, but nobody could say, unequivocally, that if I applied, that my application would actually make it across her and the committee's desk.

I've recently been told by an altogether NEW member to the party that eligibility to the MA is more lenient and that my application would, indeed, be considered. However, this would mean enrolling in killer coursework for the Fall without much assurance that I'd be successful in the MA admissions process.

That leaves another option -- simply readmit as a degree-seeking undergrad, and get an English BA.

What would others do? There's no danger of not getting into a BA in English program, but it does add a lot of time to what I'm trying to do. On the other hand, applying to the MA seems marginally nuts. I'm already coming off a rejection and I just have a hard time imagining a scenario where I get accepted (anywhere, ever!) - much less to a program for which I'm under-qualified. One way or another, I think I'll go back into the classroom to get eligible to switch fields, but the question is, which classroom will I be sitting in?

If it's any consolation, I had to get a JD before any PhD program would consider me. The 3 years of law school absolutely SUCKED, but getting only acceptances in the mail this time around made it worth it, at least to me.

[hopefulJ2010]

There are some who know the full extent of my plan to switch fields, from IR to English Lit (Branwen, namely). I described in another thread that I had met with a department who had been encouraging. I got the impression that I could apply to an MA program to become eligible for PhD programs. However, that was from the English department, who advised that I check things out with the DGS. Which, of course, I did, but predictably my inquiry bounced around for a while before landing with a staff member who was both with GS as well as English. She recommended that I ask the person who originally advised that I ask DGS - the graduate chair.

What this means is that I never got a concrete answer about whether or not my application would even be considered, since I'm not eligible for the MA. True, the graduate chair was encouraging, but nobody could say, unequivocally, that if I applied, that my application would actually make it across her and the committee's desk.

I've recently been told by an altogether NEW member to the party that eligibility to the MA is more lenient and that my application would, indeed, be considered. However, this would mean enrolling in killer coursework for the Fall without much assurance that I'd be successful in the MA admissions process.

That leaves another option -- simply readmit as a degree-seeking undergrad, and get an English BA.

What would others do? There's no danger of not getting into a BA in English program, but it does add a lot of time to what I'm trying to do. On the other hand, applying to the MA seems marginally nuts. I'm already coming off a rejection and I just have a hard time imagining a scenario where I get accepted (anywhere, ever!) - much less to a program for which I'm under-qualified. One way or another, I think I'll go back into the classroom to get eligible to switch fields, but the question is, which classroom will I be sitting in?

i don't think the BA is a bad idea-- you can transfer your liberal arts/requirement credits and it may only take you a year and a half/two to finish an undergrad english major (my school is something around 48 major credits) if you're going full time. then you can apply to direct track phd programs and it may end up taking a similar time as a separate MA/PhD being that some PhD programs don't accept transferred MA credits anyway.

[Strong Flat White]

Thanks to you both, I tend to agree with you both. On another note, I've been wondering lately: with all the "encouragement" that one tends to find in a department, is it just me, or does it seem like departments can't afford to not encourage people; in other words, telling non-qualified applicants that they don't have a prayer is simply bad business. That's a lot of forfeited application fees! And they can mask it in a subjective lingo in which the department is actually helping you by allowing you to apply! How enabling, these Lean-On-Me educators! It's really hard to always have record numbers of applications when you tell people not to apply, right? Or is this just cynical? I mean, I had a great and encouraging conversation with a department head... just before rejection! Hmmm.

Well, it's a jungle out there. I could say something like, "that's unethical!" But what difference would that make?

[soxpuppet]

I've heard a good number of anecdotes, both online and from people I know in real life, to suggest that schools will generally be honest about this sort of thing - they will tell you if you're not a good fit or if they can easily see that your numbers or other concrete background will disqualify you. I don't even know that the department itself gets the money from the applications - I think most of the time the larger university does. And more apps means the AdCom members have to spend more time away from their own work and their own students... I really don't see any motivation for them to lie to you, though if they don't know the full details of your situation, they might accidentally express conservative optimism in a situation where there's actually little to no hope. The problem is that it's usually impossible to judge an applicant without considering the whole application....

Thanks to you both, I tend to agree with you both. On another note, I've been wondering lately: with all the "encouragement" that one tends to find in a department, is it just me, or does it seem like departments can't afford to not encourage people; in other words, telling non-qualified applicants that they don't have a prayer is simply bad business. That's a lot of forfeited application fees! And they can mask it in a subjective lingo in which the department is actually helping you by allowing you to apply! How enabling, these Lean-On-Me educators! It's really hard to always have record numbers of applications when you tell people not to apply, right? Or is this just cynical? I mean, I had a great and encouraging conversation with a department head... just before rejection! Hmmm.

Well, it's a jungle out there. I could say something like, "that's unethical!" But what difference would that make?

[Strong Flat White]

I've heard a good number of anecdotes, both online and from people I know in real life, to suggest that schools will generally be honest about this sort of thing - they will tell you if you're not a good fit or if they can easily see that your numbers or other concrete background will disqualify you. I don't even know that the department itself gets the money from the applications - I think most of the time the larger university does. And more apps means the AdCom members have to spend more time away from their own work and their own students... I really don't see any motivation for them to lie to you, though if they don't know the full details of your situation, they might accidentally express conservative optimism in a situation where there's actually little to no hope. The problem is that it's usually impossible to judge an applicant without considering the whole application....

Good points. I was recently in a situation where I was told that it was "impossible" to tell me whether my application would be sufficient... but of course! And, I had never asked whether the application would be sufficient, since that's basically like asking if it will be accepted - an impossible question, indeed. However, I did ask whether it would be considered... and I was given concrete advice on how to determine this. I think that is a situation in which "the impossible answer" solution shouldn't apply.

[bluellie]

Good points. I was recently in a situation where I was told that it was "impossible" to tell me whether my application would be sufficient... but of course! And, I had never asked whether the application would be sufficient, since that's basically like asking if it will be accepted - an impossible question, indeed. However, I did ask whether it would be considered... and I was given concrete advice on how to determine this. I think that is a situation in which "the impossible answer" solution shouldn't apply.

I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm switching fields, too. I did my BA in area studies (e.g. Middle Eastern Studies, East Asian Studies, African Studies, etc.) and am applying to English MA programs this year; the only courses I took in the English department that are on my transcript are a couple creative writing workshops. I do, however, have a fair number (7-8) of literature courses that were related to my area of studies (i.e. foreign literature in translation). I have no theory courses whatsoever. I spoke with the DGS from one the programs to which I applied. He assured me that they would consider my application and at worst I would have to take an extra course or two to fill my "deficiencies." As my advisor told me, terminal MA programs are geared towards those switching fields and I shouldn't be intimidated about not having a degree in English.

Nonetheless, I would make sure that you have a couple literature courses on your transcript in order to be considered. That way, you demonstrate that you do have a background in literature and you know how to analyze/critique it. Plus, this will give you the bare-bones of your 10-20 page writing sample. You would not want to submit a writing sample written for the field of IR.

And, as of today, I have one acceptance (albeit from my safety school) and am waiting on four other schools. So, it's not impossible to get in from a different field.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

Edited March 13, 2010 by bluellie

[spartaca]

In my experience, English departments tend to welcome individuals with diverse backgrounds. Like the previous poster noted, it's not a bad idea to have a few lit courses on your transcript if you don't already, but I don't think it's necessary to get a second BA in English in order to apply to an English MA program. In my MA cohort, there were people who came in with Bachelor's Degrees in African American Studies, Spanish, Biochemistry, PoliSci, Dance, and Anthropology. And those are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

Because most MA programs can't/don't offer funding, it's not as difficult to get an acceptance when coming from a different undergrad field. I'd think the most important thing is to have a writing sample that exhibits your capacities for both complex critical inquiry and thoughtful analysis of literature--my MA app writing sample had no theory in it whatsoever. And if you approach your SoP as an opportunity to explain why you're interested in switching fields (what does lit offer that IR can't?) and how your non-English degree makes you a unique applicant (what will your background in IR enable you to do in lit?), then I don't think your degree in IR will be perceived as a setback.

I can understand your anxiety in regard to this situation. But I think some of the most desirable applicants are the ones who will bring diversity to a program. I'm a non-traditional student who failed out of her first undergrad college, did a couple crappy years at a community college, and took some time off before finally finishing her Bachelor's. This was a huge source of anxiety for me when I was applying for both my MA and my PhD. But I tried to use it to my advantage by mentioning my less-than-stellar academic past in my SoP in order to juxtapose with my undergrad/MA success, which enabled me to say something like my successes were both a result and reaffirmation of my desire to study English, etc, etc. It's all about how you frame it.

Oh, and unless a department explicitly states on its website or elsewhere that a BA in English is required for MA applicants, then your application will definitely be considered. (I worked in an English grad admissions office a few years back and every single file was read by the committee, even those with relatively bad GRE scores.)

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

I doubt you need a full second BA in English lit to get into an MA program.

What you might consider doing, (if you can't get in to any graduate classes this fall), is taking about 3-4 lit classes and applying your work there for the MA application in 2011. That way, you're IN SCHOOL and learning things and you're getting those few lit classes that you need to create a writing sample and focus your SOP. With a few lit classes under your belt, a writing sample about literature (that incorporates some of your IR strengths), and a strong SOP, you shouldn't have too much trouble, and I'm sure they'll consider your application.

[Strong Flat White]

I doubt you need a full second BA in English lit to get into an MA program.

What you might consider doing, (if you can't get in to any graduate classes this fall), is taking about 3-4 lit classes and applying your work there for the MA application in 2011. That way, you're IN SCHOOL and learning things and you're getting those few lit classes that you need to create a writing sample and focus your SOP. With a few lit classes under your belt, a writing sample about literature (that incorporates some of your IR strengths), and a strong SOP, you shouldn't have too much trouble, and I'm sure they'll consider your application.

So the early weigh-in was that the BA wasn't a bad idea, the later weigh-in is that straight-to-MA is the way to go. What people are missing (including the English faculty here), is that I can't afford to scale back at work in order to take a non-degree track and make a dicey application and get rejected (again) this next cycle. That would leave me without much income and a dead-end in English.

I actually thought of this later idea by Branwen -- enroll not in grad level courses, but just in courses, and still make the application for 2011, as she says. But, in not taking grad level courses, I would in fact be on the BA track, right... so that, after rejection, I'm not facing that dead end. I can finish up the BA quickly and aim for the next year, all while being on a degree program that actually allows me to pay for classes and become legitimately eligible. This could be a good middle ground.

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

So the early weigh-in was that the BA wasn't a bad idea, the later weigh-in is that straight-to-MA is the way to go. What people are missing (including the English faculty here), is that I can't afford to scale back at work in order to take a non-degree track and make a dicey application and get rejected (again) this next cycle. That would leave me without much income and a dead-end in English.

I actually thought of this later idea by Branwen -- enroll not in grad level courses, but just in courses, and still make the application for 2011, as she says. But, in not taking grad level courses, I would in fact be on the BA track, right... so that, after rejection, I'm not facing that dead end. I can finish up the BA quickly and aim for the next year, all while being on a degree program that actually allows me to pay for classes and become legitimately eligible. This could be a good middle ground.

Hey, I'm an English major, and I'm enrolling in an online UG class this summer, for the sole purpose of having access to a prof for my writing sample. Obviously, it'll be great to take a medieval lit class again, but I already have one on my transcript, so it's not like it's anything new. We do what we have to do to get in a grad program in 2011.

As I said in my earlier post - I seriously doubt you'll have to do the entire BA. A few lit classes to focus your interests should really do the trick. Upper division UG should suit that just fine.

[Jennifer]

In my experience, English departments tend to welcome individuals with diverse backgrounds. Like the previous poster noted, it's not a bad idea to have a few lit courses on your transcript if you don't already, but I don't think it's necessary to get a second BA in English in order to apply to an English MA program. In my MA cohort, there were people who came in with Bachelor's Degrees in African American Studies, Spanish, Biochemistry, PoliSci, Dance, and Anthropology. And those are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

Because most MA programs can't/don't offer funding, it's not as difficult to get an acceptance when coming from a different undergrad field. I'd think the most important thing is to have a writing sample that exhibits your capacities for both complex critical inquiry and thoughtful analysis of literature--my MA app writing sample had no theory in it whatsoever. And if you approach your SoP as an opportunity to explain why you're interested in switching fields (what does lit offer that IR can't?) and how your non-English degree makes you a unique applicant (what will your background in IR enable you to do in lit?), then I don't think your degree in IR will be perceived as a setback.

I can understand your anxiety in regard to this situation. But I think some of the most desirable applicants are the ones who will bring diversity to a program. I'm a non-traditional student who failed out of her first undergrad college, did a couple crappy years at a community college, and took some time off before finally finishing her Bachelor's. This was a huge source of anxiety for me when I was applying for both my MA and my PhD. But I tried to use it to my advantage by mentioning my less-than-stellar academic past in my SoP in order to juxtapose with my undergrad/MA success, which enabled me to say something like my successes were both a result and reaffirmation of my desire to study English, etc, etc. It's all about how you frame it.

Oh, and unless a department explicitly states on its website or elsewhere that a BA in English is required for MA applicants, then your application will definitely be considered. (I worked in an English grad admissions office a few years back and every single file was read by the committee, even those with relatively bad GRE scores.)

spartaca--reading this was really uplifting. i just posted on a different topic about how worried i was starting to feel about my chances and you have made me realize how silly I've been. I'm similar to you in the fact that I failed out of my first undergrad school (a big party-friendly U.) after almost 3.5 years and took another 3 years before going back to finish my B.A in Literature(just finished in december). I applied to 5 English M.A programs and hope that my apps show how determined I am and that my past mistakes will only help paint a picture of the student I have become. I am also glad to hear what you said about GRE scores because mine were not stellar and I was kicking myself for not doing a re-take.