Please Help Me Decide: Oxford Vs. Harvard

[biglawl1l]

Hey Guys and Gals,

Thank you for taking the time to stop by and offer your advice. I have a dilemma here (and I know it is a good dilemma) but a dilemma nonetheless.

I have been accepted into the MPP (with a concentration in International and Global Affairs) at HKS, but also have been accepted into Oxford's Master in Science for Global Governance & Diplomacy.

Let me tell you a little bit about my background: I am really interested in international affairs and will most likely pursue public work (so will not make a lot of money). In addition, there is a strong possibility that I will pursue law school after either degree (meaning three more years of school...and loans..eek). I will be paying my whole way through school and given my interest in Public Interest work, am loathe to take on too much debt....here are the school options in more detail:

Harvard--2 year program, expected total cost (tuition, COA, etc) of $135,000

Oxford--1 year program, expected total cost $50,000

Does this seem like a no-brainer--Oxford? The cost difference is huge between the two programs. That said, I've heard that HKS can open a TON of doors and may be worth the extra debt. I am still waiting on funding info from both. If I went to Harvard and had to take out that much debt (or close to it) I definitely would not go to law school for a while.

Which school would you choose if cost was the same for both? Which school would you choose if you were faced with the expenses above? Why? I am just as interested in your logic and thought process as I am in your final choice---please share!

Many, many thanks for both your time and assistance!!

EDIT: I am a US student, and went to school at HYS in the states..would most likely like to get involved in US gov't work but am open to working abroad (read: UK) as well. I deeply value flexibility.

Edited March 19, 2010 by biglawl1l

[wcasey5]

What are the doors it can open that you're thinking about?  I think you're right that it'll be a lot easier to network your way into a great job in the US from Harvard.  But as far as getting a great education... I think you have to decide that based on your own interests and view of the programs and professors.

I'm in a little bit of a similar situation with Berkeley and Harvard... Trying to decide if Harvard would be worth double the tuition, when I'm not convinced the actual education and experience are even on the same level as Berkeley.  And I certainly wouldnt have as much fun in Boston as I would in Berkeley for two years...

[BionicKris]

Is the price for Harvard $135,000 for each or or for your education in total? Either way I'd say Oxford hand's down. If your interest is definitely in foreign/international affairs going to Oxford would afford you the opportunity of being in Europe and gaining first person knowledge of international affairs. Also if you'd like to eventually work in the UK why not get an education there for a year and really decide if that is where you want to spend your life? That can only help in the long run. Who knows? Maybe you'll get an internship or something that could benefit you in the long run. If money is your only issue - I'd still say Oxford. Especially considering that you plan to go to law school. I hope this helps! Good luck with your studies.

Edited March 19, 2010 by BionicKris

[biglawl1l]

Is the price for Harvard $135,000 for each or or for your education in total? Either way I'd say Oxford hand's down. If your interest is definitely in foreign/international affairs going to Oxford would afford you the opportunity of being in Europe and gaining first person knowledge of international affairs. Also if you'd like to eventually work in the UK why not get an education there for a year and really decide if that is where you want to spend your life? That can only help in the long run. Who knows? Maybe you'll get an internship or something that could benefit you in the long run. If money is your only issue - I'd still say Oxford. Especially considering that you plan to go to law school. I hope this helps! Good luck with your studies.

Thank you for the response! $135,000 is the expected total cost for the MPP at Harvard. $50,000 is the expected total for the MSc. at Oxford. Both these figures include tuition, accommodation, etc.

I am far from set on working in the UK, but having it as an option would be nice. Thanks again, please keep them coming!

[biglawl1l]

What are the doors it can open that you're thinking about? I think you're right that it'll be a lot easier to network your way into a great job in the US from Harvard. But as far as getting a great education... I think you have to decide that based on your own interests and view of the programs and professors.

I'm in a little bit of a similar situation with Berkeley and Harvard... Trying to decide if Harvard would be worth double the tuition, when I'm not convinced the actual education and experience are even on the same level as Berkeley. And I certainly wouldnt have as much fun in Boston as I would in Berkeley for two years...

Thank you for the response. As far as "doors" opening upon graduation, they have quite an impressive alumni network: wikipedia Kennedy School and scroll down at the bottom to see the list. I think your comment is spot on about the networking opportunities.

[RH7]

Which school would you choose if cost was the same for both? Which school would you choose if you were faced with the expenses above? Why? I am just as interested in your logic and thought process as I am in your final choice---please share!

flexibility.

I currently study in the UK, so maybe I could provide a slightly different perspective.

While not at Oxford, about 80% of my professors are Oxbridge grads and our programs are generally structured exactly the same way. I don't know how familiar you are with the education system here, but most people will tell you its very different. In particular, the heavy focus on exams and dissertations basically render the work you do throughout the year useless. You may actually prefer it, but I for one surely do not. Also, most MSc courses at Oxford aren't specifically designed for jobs in policy analysis. Apart from greater knowledge and critical thinking (and criticizing EVERYTHING is how you earn marks), I don't think you would gain many real skills compared to the MPP at Harvard. Most courses (maybe apart from Said Business School and a few others) are highly theoretical, and so it's the kind of environment that's more conducive for an academic. Maybe this is what you prefer, maybe not. Either way, that's just my two cents...

[Minerva473]

I currently study in the UK, so maybe I could provide a slightly different perspective.

While not at Oxford, about 80% of my professors are Oxbridge grads and our programs are generally structured exactly the same way. I don't know how familiar you are with the education system here, but most people will tell you its very different. In particular, the heavy focus on exams and dissertations basically render the work you do throughout the year useless. You may actually prefer it, but I for one surely do not. Also, most MSc courses at Oxford aren't specifically designed for jobs in policy analysis. Apart from greater knowledge and critical thinking (and criticizing EVERYTHING is how you earn marks), I don't think you would gain many real skills compared to the MPP at Harvard. Most courses (maybe apart from Said Business School and a few others) are highly theoretical, and so it's the kind of environment that's more conducive for an academic. Maybe this is what you prefer, maybe not. Either way, that's just my two cents...

Agreed. I would try to find out how Oxford supports people in finding jobs and see if there are any former diplomats on the faculty (in my experience career academics support you in becoming career academics; sure they can write recommendations for jobs but ultimately the guidance they give you will be most relevant for academia).

[bestfootforward]

could you say more about the opening doors aspect of hks that you've heard? is this in a particular field, or?

[biglawl1l]

Agreed. I would try to find out how Oxford supports people in finding jobs and see if there are any former diplomats on the faculty (in my experience career academics support you in becoming career academics; sure they can write recommendations for jobs but ultimately the guidance they give you will be most relevant for academia).

Minerva + RH7--thank you. You both brought up great points. To answer some of the questions: diplomacy was taught by a practitioner(british diplomat) with close to 40 years experience in diplomacy including ambassadorial posts. However, they are bringing in a new prof/practitioner who I know nothing about--and am trying to get information on.

RH7--I would be taking a course on quantitative methods and qualitative research, but I agree the Harvard offers many more pragmatic "skill" courses--leadership, management, analysis, etc--than I would be getting at Oxford.

Here is the rub: Harvard seems to have the better curriculum--and exit options--for those wishing to be a practitioner. However, there is currently a $80,000 difference between the two programs. Is the difference worth $80,000? That's a hard question to answer. Oxford would give me a credential that should give me access to the IR professional arena---especially in tandem with a law degree. However, it looks like Harvard may very well prepare me better for my professional life. With a public servant salary, however, is it worth that much more extra debt?

Edited March 20, 2010 by biglawl1l

[zourah]

could you say more about the opening doors aspect of hks that you've heard? is this in a particular field, or?

Okay, so I know nothing about Oxford and wasn't going to attempt a comparison, but this is a question I can answer. I'm a first year MPP at HKS, and I wanted to spend my summer getting some field experience - my interest is predominately in political development, and given the strong faculty-and-research focus on Afghanistan right now, I really wanted to get involved with the run-up to parliamentary elections this September. The Office of Career Advancement put me in touch with an alum at NDI who passed me along to the regional director responsible for AFG - unfortunately too many security concerns for them to accept a student. I requested a sit-down with a research fellow who took an hour to talk with me about my interests and put me in touch with a well-respected national NGO that collaborates with NDI and the UN mission, who were more than happy to accept a student researcher. That's what opening doors is about - once you've figured out where you're going, this is the kind of place where there's always someone here with the right connection. If you build strong relationships with your peers and your professors, you will begin to find surprising opportunities.

[biglawl1l]

Bump! Please keep them coming, they have been great!

[JBrodsky]

Oddly enough I'm in the same position, but for the MPhil in IR at Oxford. The only difference is that I don't plan on getting a law degree. Thanks for starting this thread, and if you care to discuss the question in more depth, feel free to PM me.

[RH7]

With a public servant salary, however, is it worth that much more extra debt?

Before answering this, I was just curious as to why you don't just go straight to law school if you want to be a practitioner in government?

[peregrin]

Cost will not be the deciding factor in your deliberations. If you've already decided to pursue both a master's degree and a law degree, then I advise you to consider completing a joint JD/MPP at HKS. Harvard Kennedy offers a gamut of joint degree programs with various prestigious law, business, and medical school. A joint degree allows you to finish both degrees in four years, saving you a year's worth of tuition, room and board, and living expenses. Completing an Oxford MSc and a JD separately will also take four years and cost about the same amount.

[fancypants09]

OP, how sure are you about attending law school? And what are your reasons for wanting to attend law school post-MPP/MA? Just curious, as I'm a new attorney/recent law school graduate who is most likely heading back to school this fall for my MA in IR.

If you have any doubt in your mind about law school, I would strongly urge you to choose HKS, especially if you are toying with the idea of law school vs. PhD. I noticed that some PhD programs in the US require that you have completed a two-year MA program, so a year at Oxford would opt you out of these programs. Even if you aren't thinking about a PhD in the future, you're better off at HKS; as previous posters have mentioned, HKS will open many more doors than Oxford. It's not only about the Harvard name and network; it's also about the curriculum in general. I've heard from friends who have completed MPP/MA in IR that many IR employers and employers in related fields look favorably upon those with some quant background, which you will get during your first-year core courses (info courtesy of friends at HKS).

[biglawl1l]

Before answering this, I was just curious as to why you don't just go straight to law school if you want to be a practitioner in government?

A couple of reasons. A law degree is great for opening up the legal system and court room as a method of advocacy--not great for cracking IR related gigs. I have a passion for both and would like the flexibility to traverse both fields over a 30 year+ career...finances permitting.

[biglawl1l]

Cost will not be the deciding factor in your deliberations. If you've already decided to pursue both a master's degree and a law degree, then I advise you to consider completing a joint JD/MPP at HKS. Harvard Kennedy offers a gamut of joint degree programs with various prestigious law, business, and medical school. A joint degree allows you to finish both degrees in four years, saving you a year's worth of tuition, room and board, and living expenses. Completing an Oxford MSc and a JD separately will also take four years and cost about the same amount.

Thanks Peregin. I actually have applied to most law schools which do the joint degree program with HKS. A couple look like a possibility, but again, I need to see the financial breakdown. Your point about money saved with room & board is well taken, but what about tuition? I was under the impression that each school still charges you the full tuition a solo degree candidate would have to pay. Either way, this is a good question for me to ask relevant administrators. Thank you. Depending on the answer, the joint degree may negate the cost differential currently favoring Oxford. If not, Oxford's one year program may let me get my foot in the door to the IR field relatively cheaply before pursuing law. Those are my thoughts right now anyway.

[biglawl1l]

OP, how sure are you about attending law school? And what are your reasons for wanting to attend law school post-MPP/MA? Just curious, as I'm a new attorney/recent law school graduate who is most likely heading back to school this fall for my MA in IR.

If you have any doubt in your mind about law school, I would strongly urge you to choose HKS, especially if you are toying with the idea of law school vs. PhD. I noticed that some PhD programs in the US require that you have completed a two-year MA program, so a year at Oxford would opt you out of these programs. Even if you aren't thinking about a PhD in the future, you're better off at HKS; as previous posters have mentioned, HKS will open many more doors than Oxford. It's not only about the Harvard name and network; it's also about the curriculum in general. I've heard from friends who have completed MPP/MA in IR that many IR employers and employers in related fields look favorably upon those with some quant background, which you will get during your first-year core courses (info courtesy of friends at HKS).

FP, that's a good question. I touched upon this a bit above, but in a nutshell, it boils down to the following: 1) I like the idea of being able to work on human rights issues + various advocacy issues through the legal system and the courts. A JD is necessary if I really want to go that route. 2) A JD degree is generally not sufficient to open up non-legal work in IR; UN, Mulit-lateral NGO's, and a lot of other human rights work. Basically, I have a deep interest in both IR + the legal system. I would like to have career flexibility to criss-cross these fields throughout my professional career.

[biglawl1l]

Oddly enough I'm in the same position, but for the MPhil in IR at Oxford. The only difference is that I don't plan on getting a law degree. Thanks for starting this thread, and if you care to discuss the question in more depth, feel free to PM me.

I actually thought about applying to the MPhil in IR. If I wasn't interested in law as well, I think that would have been my Oxford program of choice. The MSc. allows me to get relevant training comparatively cheaply--thus saving some $ for law school. I think the MPhil is better--and stronger--as a stand alone degree than a MSc.

Where are your thoughts now re: Oxford and HKS?

Edited March 23, 2010 by biglawl1l

[carpecc]

Where are your thoughts now re: Oxford and HKS?

Man this is tough. Are you a UK citizen? If you have doubts about going to Law or can swing the dual degree with Harvard law, then definitely go the Harvard route. If not then Oxford one year would be a great credential, might get you into Yale Law, which would be great.

Are you familiar with Oxford's curriculum and style? The UK style is a lot different with lots of writings and discussions with your professor, not ideal for a practitioner, but this might be your thing. However it definitely wouldn't suit me, I want classroom time with professionals so I can learn how to get stuff done.

I didn't have time to read all replies so sorry if I missed something.

[carpecc]

Also keep in mind that if you get into an Ivy league US law school, you can get a job with a firm pulling 200k easy. You'd be working 60-80 hours a week doing corporate law, but just for a year or two. It might take care of that debt and let you build a nest egg to do the things you want to.

[carpecc]

OK, I've got it!

I just cast my vote to Oxford. Go to Oxford, then go to Yale Law (if possible).

Then, if you're really craving for some practical IR education, you can always do a mid career program down the road. I know Fletcher offers this, I bet SIPA and SAIS do as well. Doesn't that fit together nicely?

You seem really keen on using law for advocacy. This is important, you're law degree will be sharp weapon for this type of work. Oxford is such an ultra prestigious name, that it's not worth turning it down for mega debt.

If you go to Harvard (depending on the aid situation) then hit up law school, you're debt will be huge, and you might think twice about doing advocacy in favor of doing something more lucrative, but less impactful.

[JBrodsky]

Honestly, it depends upon your goals. HKS is probably better in terms of practical training and for a global network (though it's difficult to complain about Oxford at the global level). Oxford is good for specific tracks that I'm interested in, however, and as an experience would offer me some advantages over Harvard.

What kind of time you'll have is also a factor. Oxford will definitely improve your chances at getting into HYS-type law school, and it's a different experience for us Yanks. Something to think about. Life is short.

[biglawl1l]

Also keep in mind that if you get into an Ivy league US law school, you can get a job with a firm pulling 200k easy. You'd be working 60-80 hours a week doing corporate law, but just for a year or two. It might take care of that debt and let you build a nest egg to do the things you want to.

Thank you for your contribution. Username aside, I really have absolutely desire to pursue big law. I'd only pursue it as a last resort if I am crushed with debt. Also, the legal market is in turmoil and it is no longer raining $$$. The most recent NLJ 250 numbers (the biggest firms that pay $160,000 + bonus) have the top schools placing about 50% of their class in those jobs--it was 70%+ just a couple years ago. These numbers are also lagged because 2009 graduates had OCI in 2007...it has gotten much worse.

[biglawl1l]

Poll Update: HKS is in the lead at a ratio of about 2 to 1. Would some of you who chose HKS mind sharing your reasoning? Thanks!