location (Durham vs. Boston)

[wanderluster]

Hey guys,

I got admitted to schools in Durham and Boston. I've already had my own ideas about each program. However, I have never visited either place so am not sure how graduate student life is like in each city. I'm not in the US so unable to visit them. I'd like to hear everybody's perspective on the pros and cons of living in each city.

So far, these are all I've got:

Durham: better weather, much lower cost of living

Boston: great public transportation, more things to do during weekends (?)

Your opinions would be greatly appreciated

[Multiple Infusions]

Boston is a great college town; I believe it is true that at any given time about 1/3 of Boston's population is comprised of college students. Just look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_metropolitan_Boston

So, if you are interested in the social scene I highly recommend Bean Town. I have a lot of family there and have spent a chunk of my life in the region, so take this piece of advice seriously: Do Not Drive. Between the infrastruction and the aggressive drivers, it's probably the worst city in the country to drive in. As you said, the public transportation system is great, so make use of it .

Also, a silver lining on the weather situation; cold, snowy winters are great for keeping you hard at work indoors.

Good luck with your decision!

[bananagramsfan]

I have lived in Durham for years and can't say enough good about it. Not only is the weather an undeniable plus, but Durham is full of things to do: a wonderful farmer's market, good restaurants (check out www.carpedurham.com), bike trails, and the world's largest documentary film festival, Full Frame, every April. You are just a bus ride away from Chapel Hill/Carrboro. Beyond that it's helpful to have a car, and most places are not particularly accessible without one. If you will have a car the wider area provides a lot of additional things to do-- including wonderful Indian restaurants and a first-run Bollywood theatre in Cary. Durham also has an interesting labor/class/racial history, and is an incredibly rich and diverse community of people working on issues surrounding that history.

...All that being said, I love Boston. Cost of living is higher, but there is so much there and great public transportation. Not only do you not need a car, but you wouldn't want one. Boston is on the smaller size of American cities and is suprisingly compact-- and walkable!-- and it's a really beautiful area (both Cape Cod and Western Mass are feasible day trips). Of course Boston is diverse and full of interesting communities, as well.

I'm not sure this is very helpful because I would happily live in Durham or Boston, but for different reasons.

Edited March 23, 2010 by bananagramsfan

[wanderluster]

Hey, thanks a lot, Multiple Infusions and bananagramsfan!

In fact I haven't needed a car in where I'm living now. So I never learnt to drive, and of course, have no driving license. So in comparing the higher cost of living in Boston with the cost for a car in Durham (insurance, fuel, etc...), which place would be likely more expensive for me? If I were to choose Durham, I would likely consider buying a car sooner or later. Besides, would a bike be helpful in Durham? I guess for weekend getaway trips, a car is a must?

And how about the safety? I heard crime rate in Durham is higher than in that in Boston?

[Pamphilia]

I love Boston--it's a great town. Then again, I've only ever visited. My sibling is living there now and severely dislikes it, I think mostly due to the weather (which can be quite bad) but also because the public transportation is--according to my sib--sort of a pain in the ass. S/he also doesn't have a car and regrets it because things like supermarkets are very difficult to get to without one. I don't know. Personally I've always liked Boston, but I've never lived there. My sib tends to be a pessimist sometimes, but I figured I'd pass his/her opinion along. Side note: it would probably make a significant difference where in Boston you'd be.

Personally, I'd pick Durham. Boston's great, but I really dig the Durham/Chapel Hill area. It's simply beautiful, and there's a lot to do and many cool, funky, quirky bars/cafes/restaurants/galleries. It's artsy and there is a wonderful local music scene. There is actually a pretty good bus system, as well. The main drawback of the bus system is that it doesn't run very late and the weekends can be a pain. If you're into big city life, Boston might be a better bet. However, with Chapel Hill and Raleigh very close, Durham's not nearly as small town-ish as many people think it is. The triangle makes for a nice little city. And the weather can't be beat! Four seasons but a mild winter.

I wouldn't worry too much about crime in either area. I mean, keep your wits about you and be smart (as you ought to anywhere). But I've never found either place to be very threatening, especially in the student areas.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Pamphilia

[so47]

In fact I haven't needed a car in where I'm living now. So I never learnt to drive, and of course, have no driving license. So in comparing the higher cost of living in Boston with the cost for a car in Durham (insurance, fuel, etc...), which place would be likely more expensive for me? If I were to choose Durham, I would likely consider buying a car sooner or later. Besides, would a bike be helpful in Durham? I guess for weekend getaway trips, a car is a must?

Honestly, a car is a must for more than weekend trips in Durham. I was just there last weekend, and while Chapel Hill has a good bus system, the impression I got from my friends and other students there is it is mainly useful for getting to and from campus (UNC-CH) but you really have to have a car to get to most grocery stores, shopping, social stuff. And my friends at Duke all drive to campus daily. The housing there is great, but it is mainly apartment complexes off of really big roads with 55 mph+ speed limits. And things are so spread out that I don't think walking and biking would be very practical there, especially at night. I have heard that there a rough parts of Durham and you wouldn't want to be walking through one of those in the middle of the night. But I highly doubt that Durham has more crime than Boston, but either place, you just have to be smart and know how to keep safe (don't walk alone late a night if you're a girl, don't go to ATM after dark, typical "street smarts")

So if you don't have a license or a car and don't want one, go to Boston. Durham is great but pretty much everyone has a car down there.

[eucalyptus]

I interviewed in both cities and for me the winner for location is easily, undeniably, Boston. While Carrboro and Chapel Hill are pretty cool, they're not actually particularly close to Durham - they're far enough that I wouldn't drive out there for a weeknight dinner. I found Durham itself to be way too much of a driving city. It does seem to have some nice restaurants and other cool stuff but they're all rather spread out from each other, so you really have to drive everywhere and there are few nice walkable areas. Durham's downtown looks like it's on its way up, but you can't help but notice that it used to be (and sort of still is) rundown and somewhat sketchy. I also found it to feel quite "southern" (conservative, old-fashioned), which could be a positive or a negative depending on what you're comfortable with - personally, it felt a little foreign to me. That being said, when people say the cost of living is lower in Durham, they're not kidding around - the grad students I met were regularly paying less than $500 for nice apartments, and students with children or spouses could easily afford to live in their own houses. Also, I would melt in the summer, but I can fully understand why the weather would be a plus.

On the other hand, I find Boston to be a charming, awesomely compact and walkable city. Despite being fairly small, it really has the feel of a big city. Being able to use public transportation is a big plus for me, as is the abundance of student hangouts and cute areas to explore. I really like the kind of intellectual vibe that Boston has, and it also feels quite liberal and progressive. Boston is also closer to home for me, and I'm more comfortable in very cold winters than very hot summers.

Keep in mind how far your stipend will go when comparing the affordability of either city - I was offered $19600 in Durham and $27800 in Boston, which probably even out.

[deipnosophistry]

I faced this exact dilemma last year, and I picked Durham, albeit a little reluctantly. However, I'm six months into my first year and I ADORE Durham. I managed to purchase my first home in a great neighborhood, I get to experience enough wintry weather to get a taste for it but not hate half the year, and there is never a shortage of things to do in the area. Had I chosen Boston, I would have had at least one roommate, even with the generous stipend offered by the school there, and I would have become all too familiar with crap-tons of snow. That being said, I'd still love to live in Beantown some day.

So, I guess my comment might not be that helpful. I just wanted you to know that Boston's a great city, but Durham has many charms too. And while it's hard to compare a city of ~250,000 with a metropolitan area of 4.5 million, I think Durham has a lot to offer.

[wanderluster]

Hey guys, thanks for all your opinions!

Well, in fact I kinda already have my own choice based on the programs. I just wanted to make sure that location wouldn't be much of an important factor in making the decision. And it sounds like both places are great for graduate students.

I have lived 21 years of my life without needing a car, either in a small city where I could easily get around on foot or bike, or in big cities with extensive public transport networks. Boston seems to fit my commuting habit. But I think it might also be time to get used to having a car.

I come from a region with tropical climate, so Durham's weather might suit me better. Having said that, I also spent half a year in the Scandinavia, and did not encounter severe problems with the winter there.

I asked about the crime rate because I heard about the murders of a Duke and a UNC student in 2008. But I guess they're just random incidents and say little about the safety in Durham. Also, I am now living in one of the safest places in the world, so just a bit concerned.

@ eucalyptus: My stipends are almost the same as yours. But have you taken into account the tax rates? I'm not really sure about this though...

Edited March 24, 2010 by wanderluster

[eucalyptus]

To be honest, I hadn't thought about the tax rates at all! Good point.

I would think that the crime rate is higher in Durham than in Boston. Not only did it look a lot sketchier, grad students were telling stories of seeing numerous drug deals and fights in certain areas. What they said was that Durham has bad areas like any city, but the weird thing is that they are RIGHT next to the good areas, and it's hard to tell which is which if you're not familiar with the city. So if you do decide on Durham, I would suggest getting some advice from current grads about where exactly to live!

[peppermint.beatnik]

Despite being fairly small, it really has the feel of a big city.

eucalyptus Boston is not small! It also has higher crime rate, but students, for the most part, don't live in crime-ridden areas.

[eucalyptus]

eucalyptus Boston is not small! It also has higher crime rate, but students, for the most part, don't live in crime-ridden areas.

It's not small as such, but it is smaller than I expected... Boston itself is about half a million, Toronto (where I'm from) is about 2.5 million. Boston has such a big reputation that I was surprised it wasn't bigger than Toronto.

[peppermint.beatnik]

It's not small as such, but it is smaller than I expected... Boston itself is about half a million, Toronto (where I'm from) is about 2.5 million. Boston has such a big reputation that I was surprised it wasn't bigger than Toronto.

I see, if you count Boston proper. In Greater Boston--including Cambridge, Quincy, etc--the population is quite large!

[thetruthsnake]

I would think that the crime rate is higher in Durham than in Boston. Not only did it look a lot sketchier, grad students were telling stories of seeing numerous drug deals and fights in certain areas. What they said was that Durham has bad areas like any city, but the weird thing is that they are RIGHT next to the good areas, and it's hard to tell which is which if you're not familiar with the city. So if you do decide on Durham, I would suggest getting some advice from current grads about where exactly to live!

FYI: to many Duke students, low-income = sketchy and non-white = criminals. The town just has a large low-income and black population. People very sadly project and assume a lot because of that.

[eucalyptus]

I see, if you count Boston proper. In Greater Boston--including Cambridge, Quincy, etc--the population is quite large!

Very true. Still, suprisingly to me, quite a bit smaller than the Greater Toronto area. Before I'd been there, I really thought Boston was a Chicago- or Philadelphia-sized city, which it's not. Still plenty big enough for me, though.

[coyabean]

FYI: to many Duke students, low-income = sketchy and non-white = criminals. The town just has a large low-income and black population. People very sadly project and assume a lot because of that.

Yeah, thanks for that.

I currently attend school in Durham and I have never, ever seen a drug deal go down. And "sketchy" is so personal as to be meaningless. I think most people -- particularly at Duke (where I work, btw) -- consider my UG -- an HBCU -- to be that "sketchy" part of town. However, I have walked those streets during the all times of the day and night and I have never been a victim of a crime. Working class and brown is not sketchy, IMO. In fact, when the students at said HBCU want to score some "recreational greenery"? They go to UNC and Duke to get it. I would venture that there are more drug deals happening at Duke and UNC than the sketchiest parts of the city.

Sure, there's crime but it's better than my hometown of Charlotte which is almost twice the size of Durham.

It's an old city and the architecture and streets reflect that. And I am no city booster -- I prefer more walkable areas -- but I hate to see a city reduced to the most pejorative of terms.

I catch live blues at Papa Mojos several times a month. I also catch live pop/rock/hip hop at the Broad Street Cafe (never a cover!). Watts Grocery has the best shrimp and grits I've ever eaten. They are committed to locally sourced food and the incredible shrimp -- prawns, really -- taste like they were caught 20 minutes before they hit my plate. You would be hard-pressed to find a more lively indie music scene in a city of comparable size. Little Brother lives here (for my underground hip hop heads)!! I volunteer in one of those impoverished "sketchy" n'hoods and I am sensible: I lock my car doors and walk with a buddy after dark. You wouldn't also do those things in Boston?!

The city is what you make it. You won't be getting knocked over the head by rabid heroin users for your iPod and sneakers. Be sensible and in Durham you can actually have a life on your stipend. Not to mention it is hard to beat the opportunities that result from the synergy of having some of the country's best Universities in one area. I feel as if you pay for one education but get to partake of education from at least four. And our local economy has fared better than most.

Good luck in your decision, but it doesn't sound as if there is a "wrong" choice. It's all about what kind of environment you want.

ETA crime comparison:

CRIME Durham Boston United States

Violent Crime 7 7 3

Property Crime 7 7 3

via http://www.bestplaces.net/city/default.aspx?cat=CRIME&city=Boston_MA&ccity=Durham_NC&p=2507000&op=3719000

Not bad for a city less than half the size of the other.

Edited March 25, 2010 by coyabean

[kaskasero]

I lived in Boston for 6+ years and will probably be heading back there this fall. So, Boston baby!

I love Boston for so many reasons, so let me just say that you won't regret going there.

[IOPsychology]

http://swz.salary.com/CostofLivingWizard/layoutscripts/coll_start.asp

This is a great resource no matter what 2 cities you're comparing. You enter your current "income" for one city/area and and it provides you with the income you would need to make in the new city/area to have the same standard of living. Ex. For Eucalyptus' $19600 "income" in Durham, (s)he would have to make $29021 in Boston for the same standard of living.

As for my own experience - I lived in Boston for 3 years and now live in Chapel Hill, NC. I didn't have (or really need) a car in Boston, but I do have a car (and definitely need it) in Chapel Hill. While I was in Boston, I lived in the Tufts area (right in Davis Square) which was a great, young area, and a bit less expensive than living in Boston proper. While I lived there, I shared an apartment with 2 other people (3 BR, 1 bathroom apt). For about the same amount of rent I paid there, I could get my own 1-2 BR apartment in Chapel Hill.

Money aside, the other thing to consider is the weather. For some people, it's not a big deal. For me, it was. Part of that was not having a car in Boston. I think if I had had a car there, I would have been happier, particularly in the winter. Not everyone is like me though. Just consider that if you're going to be taking the T and/or walking, you'll need to invest in some heavy duty winter weather gear. I recommend a nice down coat

And as for the transportation: stick to the red line if you can. The green line is painfully, horribly slow. That line is still the old trolley-train type of system, whereas the red line has the newer, subway-type trains. If you're going to live close to school and would only have to take it a few stops, the green line is probably fine (e.g. if you're going to Boston Univ.). But if you're going to Tufts or Harvard, do yourself a favor and try to avoid commuting via green line.

Both areas are great- just totally different. Durham and surrounding areas tend to be much more suburban and spread out. Boston is urban of course, and very... old. But in a good way - it's very charming and has a lot of personality. I could have lived there for years longer and still wouldn't have been able to go/see all the places/things I wanted to do. But the winter can be like 6 months long there. Either way - I think you'll be happy. They're both great areas with a lot of young and incredibly intellectual people around.

Good luck!!

[choidy87]

Yeah, thanks for that.

I currently attend school in Durham and I have never, ever seen a drug deal go down. And "sketchy" is so personal as to be meaningless. I think most people -- particularly at Duke (where I work, btw) -- consider my UG -- an HBCU -- to be that "sketchy" part of town. However, I have walked those streets during the all times of the day and night and I have never been a victim of a crime. Working class and brown is not sketchy, IMO. In fact, when the students at said HBCU want to score some "recreational greenery"? They go to UNC and Duke to get it. I would venture that there are more drug deals happening at Duke and UNC than the sketchiest parts of the city.

thank you, coyabean, for your input. i've lived in both the triangle and the boston-area and you're speaking the truth. i was originally going to post in response to someone's comment about boston being diverse. in my opinion, that's not true. while there are people of different backgrounds in boston, i've lived all over this country (and in a few other nations) and have never seen a city less integrated. there's obviously a long history of racism and classism in boston, but i'm pretty sure most people aren't referring to "sketchy" mattapan when they're discussing diversity. of course, if you're only stopping in for a few years as a student at harvard, bu, northeastern, brandeis, etc., i'm guessing you could graduate without ever hearing about blue hill avenue and mattapan.

anyway, having attended one of the triangle universities where people scored "their recreational greenery" as an undergrad, i can honestly say i've seen some of the lowest class behavior in my life in the wine and cheese sections of town. don't get me wrong, i still bleed my particular shade of blue and love the area just as much as the next person, but i think it's always a good idea to clarify exactly what makes a place "sketchy" or an area "bad."

[Catch22alex]

I am pretty sure I'm not headed to boston this summer because I do not want to live in a shoebox for 1500 a month. Depends if you are a homey person or not I guess but I don't think I'd take advantage of a big city the way others could (at least in grad school, when most of my time should be dedicated to studying)