SIPA vs. IR/PS

[gazelle]

First off, I'll come right out and say I'm accepted to UCSD's IR/PS program (but still waiting on funding info), but only wait listed at SIPA; nonetheless, a lot of people turn down SIPA so there is a good shot getting off the wait list, so let's assume that happens for the purposes of this thread.

I'm looking to go into international development and nonprofit management, working in the energy/environment sector (engineering background). Regional focus is Japan. I'm having trouble deciding which one I would choose...

SIPA PROS:

--It's Columbia

--Very highly regarded within Japan, possibly resulting in high chance of getting a job in Japan

--New York city

--Won't need a car

--Good language/regional focus

--Large alumni network

--Probably opens doors deep into my career long after I'm gone

SIPA CONS:

--Extremely expensive. Even if I can secure a $20k fellowship for the second year, I still need to come up with $116k, which isn't that far off from $136k in reality. This is years of debt and massive payments, and could severely affect quality of life for years.

--Gets a lot of bad press for some reason; I myself have been treated both rudely and kindly through email/phone communication.

--Large classes, perhaps more impersonal

--No extra chances for funding or TA-ships beyond whatever you may or may not be awarded in funding the second year. Thus it could almost safely be said (at least for me, I won't be getting any $40k scholarships the second year, I'll be lucky to get $20k) that $116k is the absolute best scenario.

IR/PS PROS:

--Way cheaper, manageable debt. $60k, but with California residency the second year that puts it at $45k at the absolute worst, and potentially a lot less pending funding info and a T/A-ship with small stipend

--San Diego

--Seemingly extremely supportive of and dedicated to their students, good communication

--Good foreign language preparation

--Only true Asia-specific IR program

--Smaller classes

IR/PS CONS:

--Not a "name brand" or "household" name in IR

--People in Japan have probably never heard of it

--Likely smaller salary (though much less debt also)

--Need a car

--Not New York city

--Much smaller alumni network

Which would you choose and why? If money was a wash I'd almost instantly take Columbia because it's Columbia and it's NYC, and truthfully I think both programs fit me pretty well. But, IR/PS has a lot going for it, and while I may not get as sweet of a job coming out of IR/PS (though I might), I don't know that I can stomach $140k in debt, on top of the $20k I already have from undergrad.

[lomsaku]

Hey gazelle,

I'm in a similar situation as yourself. I have a background in Asian studies, and have lived in Beijing for the last couple of years working in non-IR private sector fields. I am extremely interested in international energy policy, but obviously would be approaching the subject without the benefit of an engineering background. I am considering both IR/PS and SIPA (as well as SAIS) for international affairs graduate work next year.

IR/PS has a very strong China studies faculty, led by Susan Shirk (China security studies) and Barry Naughton (China economics). I appreciate the small class size at IR/PS, and the admissions people have been very accessible and responsive to my questions. The big downside to IR/PS is that they don't have a policy concentration in international energy policy. SIPA has the Energy and Environment functional concentration, with an extremely quantitatively rigorous International Energy Management and Policy track. SAIS has the Energy, Resource, and the Environment concentration, which looks strong as well, but perhaps more conceptual than quantitative.

I am most interested in policy and finance dealing with renewable energy, cleantech, energy efficiency, and energy infrastructure. I am a little concerned that the SAIS and SIPA (SIPA, especially) programs are nearly entirely focused on traditional energy resources (petro, coal, natural gas), and do not put enough emphasis on renewables, carbon emissions trading, energy efficiency, etc.

Do you have any insight on SIPA's IEMP program? Would you be more interested in studying energy policy or Japan/E.Asia regional issues?

[Putoots]

Wow Gazelle, I'm in your exact same position. I'm also deciding between IR/PS and SIPA...and FSPP, but that is a totally different discussion.

For me, the main story is Cost vs. Name, though area of focus is also a factor.

With SIPA, my focus would undoubtedly be political and economic development (coming from a project planning background in the public sector), and I really appreciate the way Columbia has developed its capstone project as well as the fact that I'd be able to focus not only on Latin America but also Africa (and perhaps Central Asia). Also, I'm sure that SIPA is a better gateway to more dynamic organizations because of the name and the location.

With IR/PS, the low cost gives me more options in terms of what I want to study, which is nice because I don't have a "set-in-stone," specific job or organization in mind. For example, though I am interested in development, my academic background deals more with IR theory and politics, so the International Politics career track is very appealing. And that would also give me a solid research foundation (especially if I can secure a Research Assistant position) to go on to a Political Science or Political Science/Public Policy PhD without worrying about carrying mounds of debt. The same is true of the Public Policy career track, which would provide me with a diverse, well-rounded background to move on to a PhD program or other employment (in public sector or non-profit).

In terms of a decision, I'm pretty stuck as well, though I may contend with your assertion about needing a car in La Jolla. I don't necessarily think you need a car, even though it would certainly make getting around easier. I do notice that IR/PS seems like it fosters a pretty tight-knit group of students, so I'm sure you'd be able to carpool to get places. Also, the reality is that, unlike NYC, there really isn't as much going on down there. (Having said that, I'm probably going to bring my bike, a constantly-breaking moped, and my dying Mitsubishi just in case.)

---

Honestly, I'm leaning towards IR/PS, as much as it pains me to let go of a school that I've been wanting to go to for about 7 years. I'm looking at about $95,000 in debt if I don't get funding from SIPA in the second year, and that just seems like a ripoff considering I could get a PhD for the same price somewhere else (I find it troubling that on the SIPA blog they say that 70% of second-year students get funding, but on my acceptance letter it said the number was closer to 50%). But that isn't all. I think it is important to look at your personality, your level of motivation, and your work ethic before choosing a program. For example, I haven't really developed networking skills, which could severely limit the advantage of being at Columbia and NYC. I'm definitely more of a "smart and work hard" person, more suited to acing classes and being a meaningful contributor to a project than skipping study sessions for brown bag sessions and meet-and-greets.

To succeed at SIPA, I think the key is getting involved more than getting good grades or being at the top of your class. In fact, I would argue that you probably only need to worry about grades the first semester (due to the funding issue). After that, the focus should be on building contacts, interning, and preparing yourself for employment.

IR/PS is more insular, with many resources coming from within the university (through research) and through participation (through students groups). I think academic excellence will get you farther at IR/PS than at SIPA.

[gazelle]

Do you have any insight on SIPA's IEMP program? Would you be more interested in studying energy policy or Japan/E.Asia regional issues?

Unfortunately don't know much about the IEMP program...I would probably be more interested in studying regional issues, but I could like both.

For me, the main story is Cost vs. Name, though area of focus is also a factor.

Honestly, I'm leaning towards IR/PS, as much as it pains me to let go of a school that I've been wanting to go to for about 7 years. I'm looking at about $95,000 in debt if I don't get funding from SIPA in the second year, and that just seems like a ripoff considering I could get a PhD for the same price somewhere else (I find it troubling that on the SIPA blog they say that 70% of second-year students get funding, but on my acceptance letter it said the number was closer to 50%). But that isn't all. I think it is important to look at your personality, your level of motivation, and your work ethic before choosing a program. For example, I haven't really developed networking skills, which could severely limit the advantage of being at Columbia and NYC. I'm definitely more of a "smart and work hard" person, more suited to acing classes and being a meaningful contributor to a project than skipping study sessions for brown bag sessions and meet-and-greets.

To succeed at SIPA, I think the key is getting involved more than getting good grades or being at the top of your class. In fact, I would argue that you probably only need to worry about grades the first semester (due to the funding issue). After that, the focus should be on building contacts, interning, and preparing yourself for employment.

IR/PS is more insular, with many resources coming from within the university (through research) and through participation (through students groups). I think academic excellence will get you farther at IR/PS than at SIPA.

I'm right there with you on all of the above, except I'd be pulling the full $136k in loans, on top of my $20k from undergrad which already is a $226/mo payment.

Columbia has been my dream school too, and NYC sounds amazing to me (but then again so does San Diego), and I like the fact that Columbia will likely open more doors particularly internationally.

I seriously flop every other day. One day I'm like (this is of course assuming acceptance off the wait list...), "Don't be an idiot, go to Columbia," and the very next day I think to myself, "You'd be an absolute idiot to go $136k+$20k into debt...bye bye house, nice car, hobbies, sleeping well at night, or having a family." While still on another day I think "$45k for UCSD (if I get Cali residency in year two and no other funding) seems like a walk in the park compared to Columbia and it's a good program, go there," and still on another day I think, "Man, that's a lot cheaper than Columbia but it's still $45k and it's *just* UCSD." This is complicated further still by the fact I could just go get a chemical engineering job and make $65k starting, knock out my $20k in undergrad loans, and pretty much be able to get everything I want in life--except that graduate degree.

FWIW I'm having trouble finding average starting salaries for IR/PS grads?

I know it's not about salary, and that's not why you go to grad school, but let's face it--in the face of this kind of debt salary absolutely does matter.

[stilesg57]

I'm not at either school, but I did get into IR/PS and shopped it hard as I was living in SD for a good chunk of the time I was applying to schools.

The reason I'm not in law school right now: no options. I don't want to be a lawyer at a big firm, and the debt load is so high that you HAVE to be just to pay them down. MPPs have options with what kind of job they want to do, assuming a sane debt level (under $100k)

$140k sounds an awful lot like law school debt levels. But with this kind of degree I don't think you even have the option of a $120k+ salary to pay that down the way a law grad does.

I'm sure I sound like I'm reversing myself a bit because just wrote a piece about not fearing debt too much. But man, $140k is a lot for one of these degrees. Even if you get lucky, it will will be a long time before you're making that much in salary.

Two quick things about IR/PS:

1) You can't get in-state tuition after your first year. California law doesn't allow you to claim residency if you "moved to the state for the purpose of going to school." Believe me I know: I love San Diego, already had an apartment there with my best friend, want to work on the West Coast, and had my best aid package at IR/PS. I spent two days arguing with their admissions people about it (I had lived in CA for over a year since I first applied at that point) and they said I would not get in-state tuition.

2) Starting salaries probably aren't published because they're unusually low right now. CA is in a BRUTAL recession; SD county is knocking on the door of 20% unemployment for twenty-somethings. You have to live there - or try to get a job like I did - for awhile to fully understand it. Also, career services was a little iffy at IR/PS. Better than UCLA, but iffy. At a mixer I attended, the alumni didn't come off as loyal as I had hoped.

[dave85]

Unfortunately don't know much about the IEMP program...I would probably be more interested in studying regional issues, but I could like both.

I'm right there with you on all of the above, except I'd be pulling the full $136k in loans, on top of my $20k from undergrad which already is a $226/mo payment.

Columbia has been my dream school too, and NYC sounds amazing to me (but then again so does San Diego), and I like the fact that Columbia will likely open more doors particularly internationally.

I seriously flop every other day. One day I'm like (this is of course assuming acceptance off the wait list...), "Don't be an idiot, go to Columbia," and the very next day I think to myself, "You'd be an absolute idiot to go $136k+$20k into debt...bye bye house, nice car, hobbies, sleeping well at night, or having a family." While still on another day I think "$45k for UCSD (if I get Cali residency in year two and no other funding) seems like a walk in the park compared to Columbia and it's a good program, go there," and still on another day I think, "Man, that's a lot cheaper than Columbia but it's still $45k and it's *just* UCSD." This is complicated further still by the fact I could just go get a chemical engineering job and make $65k starting, knock out my $20k in undergrad loans, and pretty much be able to get everything I want in life--except that graduate degree.

FWIW I'm having trouble finding average starting salaries for IR/PS grads?

I know it's not about salary, and that's not why you go to grad school, but let's face it--in the face of this kind of debt salary absolutely does matter.

In the end, the school brand can only do so much for you. It's all about what you make of the education. UCSD IR/PS itself may not be world-renowned like Columbia SIPA, but I think people forget that it is a part of the reputable University of California system; which is nothing to sneeze at. Ultimately, you would be better off attending a school where you have a chance to build a relationship with faculty and your cohort. The relationships will matter more in the long run than anything else.

On the downside, the entire UC system suffered a setback because of the California budget crisis this year. So it's very likely that the tuition at IR/PS will rise this year as well.

Also keep in mind that San Diego is the complete opposite of NYC. If you like to live in a big sprawling city, San Diego won't offer you that. It's a little house on the prairie compared to NYC... Suburbia at it's best, but you have temperate weather all year round.

I've had a chance to talk to a couple of IR/PS alumni on the east and west coast and have found their starting salary to be in the 50s.

Edited March 30, 2010 by dave85

[lomsaku]

1) You can't get in-state tuition after your first year. California law doesn't allow you to claim residency if you "moved to the state for the purpose of going to school." Believe me I know: I love San Diego, already had an apartment there with my best friend, want to work on the West Coast, and had my best aid package at IR/PS. I spent two days arguing with their admissions people about it (I had lived in CA for over a year since I first applied at that point) and they said I would not get in-state tuition.

Are you sure about this? A quick Google search found this article on establishing California residence for fee purposes from the UCSB website:

Intent: Demonstrate through objective documentation that your physical presence was coupled with the intent to make California your permanent home. Intent is evaluated as an independent element of residence, separate from physical presence, and is demonstrated by establishing residential ties in California, and relinquishing ties to the former place of residence. Physical presence within California solely for educational purposes does not constitute the establishment of California residence regardless of the length of stay. The physical presence requirement (above) will be extended until the student can demonstrate a concurrence of both physical presence and intent for one full year.

Establishing Intent to Become a California Resident

Relevant indicia that contribute to the demonstration of a student's intent to make California the permanent home include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. Registering to vote and voting in California elections;
2. Designating a California permanent home address on all records (e.g., school, employment, military, etc.);
3. Obtaining a California Driver License or California Identification Card;
4. Obtaining a California vehicle registration;
5. Paying California income taxes as a resident (including taxes on income earned outside California from the date California residence was established);
6. Maintaining a California residence in which personal belongings are kept;
7. Licensing for professional practice in California; and,
8. The absence of these indicia in places other than California during any period for which residence in California is asserted.

Source: http://www.registrar.ucsb.edu/intent-indep.htm

[gazelle]

Very interesting.

I'm looking here: http://www.ucsd.edu/...e/criteria.html and as of right now I can't see any reason I wouldn't meet the residency requirements for the second year (although, it DOES sound like a massive PITA and it really sounds like The Man is going to approach me with the disposition that I am just there for school and not trying to establish residency, making it seem like it would be a hard road to save that $15k...).

I also see the following: "The physical presence requirement will be extended until the student can demonstrate a concurrence of both physical presence and intent for one full year." This seems like it would be quite difficult to get right on all of the residency things right away--if I'm reading this correctly, once I'm there they will want me to show intent for at least one full year as well before I can claim residency, which pretty much means I have to have everything switched over to California status, which would be pretty damn hard to accomplish between the time I would move there (July/August) and the beginning of the school year (the physical presence determination date would be the first day of classes the second year of study, so I'd have to be showing intent before the first day of classes the first year of study).

I should also note, I wonder if this has anything to do with the 44% Bay Area job placement, just people trying to live in California a bit after graduation so The Man doesn't come back at them in the future looking to collect out-of-state tuition retroactively.

Here's another thing though, and I'll have to look this up more on my own...in the event I deferred, and got married to my current gf, a Japanese national, I have strong doubts with all of these procedures that she would be able to claim Cali residency. She wants to finish her undergraduate degree in America, and loves California so that is/was another strong benefit of going to UCSD, but if she can't get residency the out-of-state tuition and living expenses is insane for just a bachelor's.

Edited March 30, 2010 by gazelle

[stilesg57]

Google all you like; Google doesn't make the decision unfortunately

Call the university before you bank on it. When I started asking in March '09, I had Cali plates on my car since February '08, rent and utility bills in my name (continuously in CA) since January '08, and pay stubs w/ CA-based companies for about 7 months of that period. They still turned me down and said that you couldn't convert being a resident for the purpose of going to school into in-state tuition. Surprised me too. Good luck.

Edit: also worth noting that I voted in CO in November '08. Perhaps that's what did me in (but there's still no way you could consider CO my "residence" for that year+)

Edited March 30, 2010 by stilesg57

[lomsaku]

Hey Gazelle, have you received information on IR/PS fellowship awards or financial aid? I am getting a little frustrated that I still haven't received my admitted students packet with this information.

[stilesg57]

I've had a chance to talk to a couple of IR/PS alumni on the east and west coast and have found their starting salary to be in the 50s.

Makes sense - right on average for these degrees.

[gazelle]

Hey Gazelle, have you received information on IR/PS fellowship awards or financial aid? I am getting a little frustrated that I still haven't received my admitted students packet with this information.

Not yet; though they are sending it to my sister in Minneapolis, instead of to me in Japan. She only bothers with email at work so the most I can hope is she got it Monday US time and will give me the info Tuesday via email US time (sometime late tonight for me). I also would like to know.

[dave85]

Unfortunately don't know much about the IEMP program...I would probably be more interested in studying regional issues, but I could like both.

I'm right there with you on all of the above, except I'd be pulling the full $136k in loans, on top of my $20k from undergrad which already is a $226/mo payment.

Columbia has been my dream school too, and NYC sounds amazing to me (but then again so does San Diego), and I like the fact that Columbia will likely open more doors particularly internationally.

I seriously flop every other day. One day I'm like (this is of course assuming acceptance off the wait list...), "Don't be an idiot, go to Columbia," and the very next day I think to myself, "You'd be an absolute idiot to go $136k+$20k into debt...bye bye house, nice car, hobbies, sleeping well at night, or having a family." While still on another day I think "$45k for UCSD (if I get Cali residency in year two and no other funding) seems like a walk in the park compared to Columbia and it's a good program, go there," and still on another day I think, "Man, that's a lot cheaper than Columbia but it's still $45k and it's *just* UCSD." This is complicated further still by the fact I could just go get a chemical engineering job and make $65k starting, knock out my $20k in undergrad loans, and pretty much be able to get everything I want in life--except that graduate degree.

FWIW I'm having trouble finding average starting salaries for IR/PS grads?

I know it's not about salary, and that's not why you go to grad school, but let's face it--in the face of this kind of debt salary absolutely does matter.

Gazelle - I share your same sentiment in flip flopping between grad school and taking on a stable and high paying job in engineering. Deferral is something I might be considering as well to save more money and for me to take some time to decide on grad school.

Hope it helps to know that you're not alone!

Edited March 31, 2010 by dave85

[gazelle]

Gazelle - I share your same sentiment in flip flopping between grad school and taking on a stable and high paying job in engineering. Deferral is something I might be considering as well to save more money and for me to take some time to decide on grad school.

Hope it helps to know that you're not alone!

Indeed it does!

I received my packet today, the only class they want me to take is econ (as expected), but no funding

But, seeing as my plan has somewhat been to defer from the beginning, not getting any funding makes that decision all that much easier since I'm not throwing any money away so it's not all bad.

I guess what I'll likely do (pending a nice long chat with the girlfriend), is defer San Diego not *really* planning on attending next year (but keeping my options open), wait out the SIPA wait list until May, and if I'm not in I'll stay in Japan one more year with the gf and if I am in, I'll have to very seriously decide if the SIPA debt load is something I can handle.