SAIS vs SIPA vs Georgetown MSFS (potential applicant research)

[Walker3]

Hi all,

Have been browsing the forum for quite a while, but first post here. I am an applicant for the Fall 2019 season, and I figure it's better to start gauging more insights when it's still early. I would appreciate learning how you guys think about SAIS, SIPA, and Georgetown MSFS, especially on the quality of their programs, training, and students.

A bit of background about me: 1.5 yrs of work experience in a firm that specialized in domestic affairs at my home country and a research position at a foreign policy-oriented think tank in D.C. My plan after obtaining a graduate degree would be working for the private sector development/business consulting firms at NYC or D.C. (wouldn't mind having some experience at international organizations before transitioning into the private sector). I am not a U.S. citizen or PR, so a public sector job is not an option. Took GRE already (Q:90%+, V:80%+. Writing: 5.0), and have a very high GPA from a top 50 university in the U.S. 

I will apply to SAIS (IDEV), SIPA MIA, and Georgetown MSFS program (since I would like to work in NYC or D.C.), all with a focus in international development. I am not fixed on entering a career in development, but these programs are flexible enough for me to customize.

How do you guys think about these programs?

I've heard that SAIS's quant training is rigorous and would prepare you well. I did not like quant that much, but I think it will be useful to have these skills. I had intro-level micro+macro econ and stats training.
Also wondering: how's SIPA's MIA/MPA program? I've heard that SIPA has been admitting a lot of students without sufficient experience and has a reputation of using students as cash cows. But I figure there's gotta be a lot of very very decent candidates at SIPA?

Also wondering: how's Georgetown MSFS's training for people who want to enter the private sector? Their program had the weakest quant training. Their alumni network seemed to be strong in the East Coast, but very weak at my home country.

Thanks so much!

[went_away]

You mention the private sector multiple times. Why not do a program that's aimed at getting you there? Any of these top-30 MBAs would give you better private sector career outcomes than SFS/SAIS/SIPA - https://poetsandquants.com/2018/11/14/2018-mba-ranking/3/. 

Without the possibility of getting a security clearance and lacking U.S. citizenship, I think you're really setting yourself up for disappointment (not to mention a massive expenditure of money followed by a series of unstable, low-paying jobs) if you attend one of those programs and attempt to forge a public service career in the U.S. The reputation of the Georgetown MSFS program is mostly built on the number of graduates it has sent to the foreign service and that is a path that is mostly closed now even to U.S. citizens, much less a foreign national. 

[Walker3]

18 hours ago, went_away said:

You mention the private sector multiple times. Why not do a program that's aimed at getting you there? Any of these top-30 MBAs would give you better private sector career outcomes than SFS/SAIS/SIPA - https://poetsandquants.com/2018/11/14/2018-mba-ranking/3/. 

Without the possibility of getting a security clearance and lacking U.S. citizenship, I think you're really setting yourself up for disappointment (not to mention a massive expenditure of money followed by a series of unstable, low-paying jobs) if you attend one of those programs and attempt to forge a public service career in the U.S. The reputation of the Georgetown MSFS program is mostly built on the number of graduates it has sent to the foreign service and that is a path that is mostly closed now even to U.S. citizens, much less a foreign national. 

Thank you went_away for the insight.

I do not plan on pursuing a public service career in the U.S. at all, and the reason for not looking at MBA is that I am not particularly sure about whether I will enter private sector or the non-profit sector, nor do I think that I have adequate work experience (I felt MBA is more for people with 3 or more yrs of work experience?).

 

Regarding the MSFS reputation, does it have any value for people who do not want to enter the foreign service track?

Does that mean MSFS is less favorable compared to SIPA's MPA/MIA and SAIS's MA program if you do not want to enter the foreign service sector at a county?

How does SFS, SAIS, and SIPA compare in terms of education quality? Is SIPA really not as good as SAIS in terms of the student body, education quality, and professor? (I was just observing the forum and saw SAIS mentioned much more often than SIPA or MSFS).

 

Thank you so much

[ExponentialDecay]

You can just as easily work in the non-profit sector with an MBA as with a policy degree, but you would have to at minimum take a pay cut relative MBA grads to work in the private sector with a policy degree. If you have a specific target organization, a specific policy program can be more efficient at getting you networked there, but outside of that, the on-campus hiring at policy programs is vastly inferior to MBA programs. The core of useful classes, assuming you are aiming at industry and not at reading IR at some PhD program afterwards, is the same at both. The difference is in the time invested (policy programs are 1-2 years, MBAs are 3), cost (although among elite programs that gap is pretty narrow), and difficulty of getting in. 

The three programs you mention are very similar in every respect. There's really no point in delving into the fine details like their respective quant training (weak across the board), professor and student quality and so on. They admit a comparable student body according to comparable criteria. Unless there is a specific professor you want to work with at either of the three and you know they are open to working with you closely, I'd pick based on cost, location, and ability to get a STEM extension on your OPT (which none of these three will give you, but there exist econ/finance programs, including at policy schools, that will).

Regarding DC private sector, word of caution: much of the private sector employment here, including the big MNCs that traditionally hire many internationals, works primarily with or around the US government, which means that employers may require a security clearance or simply have an unwritten requirement to not hire foreigners. 

[dft309]

SAIS alum here, used to be a short-term consultant at the World Bank while an American-pretty unusual situation. First of all-do an MBA, or get business experience and an MBA if you don't have enough of the the first yet. An MBA will get you actual private sector opportunities and more credibility if you want to development work. An IR degree is really optimized to produce diplomats and other public sector foreign policy people, not consultants or other similar outcomes, which it can, but should not be a first choice. An IR degree would make sense if you wanted to, say, work on development policy for your government or something like that. Also-in which countries have you grown up and where is your citizenship? Saying if it/they are developed or developing countries is fine-doing development work as someone with strong ties to a developing country appears to be an advantage, for a number of reasons. 

[went_away]

On 8/17/2019 at 1:31 AM, dft309 said:

An IR degree is really optimized to produce diplomats and other public sector foreign policy people, not consultants or other similar outcomes, which it can, but should not be a first choice. 

And those jobs mostly don't exist anymore for anyone but veterans, members of the brahman class, and recipients of special and diversity hiring programs.

[dft309]

On 8/23/2019 at 5:18 PM, went_away said:

And those jobs mostly don't exist anymore for anyone but veterans, members of the brahman class, and recipients of special and diversity hiring programs.

That's empirically untrue-I'm a foreign policy person myself in the federal government, a lot of alums from my year and later are doing the same across the federal government, including very recent alums and current students, and I've found in the last few months that our network is getting stronger in Congress than it used to be, which was a pleasant surprise-there are significantly more SAISers working there than in 2013. Most of the people I refer to were none of the things you refer to. Heck, I beat out veterans to get jobs in the Department of Defense several times. 

Speaking of special hiring programs, I did get a Presidential Management Fellowship offer, but I ended up turning it down, so they're not all they're cracked up to be.

Edit: Also, speaking specifically of State Department, the hiring freeze has been over since the middle of last year: https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/politics/state-oig-report-hiring-freeze/index.html. Besides which, State Department is just one avenue among many to work on foreign policy and national security issues for the federal government.

Edited September 6, 2019 by dft309

[went_away]

On 9/5/2019 at 10:29 PM, dft309 said:

That's empirically untrue-I'm a foreign policy person myself in the federal government, a lot of alums from my year and later are doing the same across the federal government, including very recent alums and current students, and I've found in the last few months that our network is getting stronger in Congress than it used to be, which was a pleasant surprise-there are significantly more SAISers working there than in 2013. Most of the people I refer to were none of the things you refer to. Heck, I beat out veterans to get jobs in the Department of Defense several times. 

Speaking of special hiring programs, I did get a Presidential Management Fellowship offer, but I ended up turning it down, so they're not all they're cracked up to be.

Edit: Also, speaking specifically of State Department, the hiring freeze has been over since the middle of last year: https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/politics/state-oig-report-hiring-freeze/index.html. Besides which, State Department is just one avenue among many to work on foreign policy and national security issues for the federal government.

Glad to hear you and your friends have done so well...

[Boolakanaka]

@Walker3 Given your career objectives, I would give serious consideration to doing a combo MBA/MPP at Yale SOM and Jackson. If it’s international consulting work you seek, well, Boston, Bain, McKinsey all have a considerable recruitment footprint on campus among a host of others...

[irinprogress]

Current MSFS student here!  Georgetown definitely does a good job at private sector training, especially in the IDEV and International Business & Finance concentrations, it's really only the Global Politics and Security concentration that is public sector-oriented.  To be clear, you do not have to choose a concentration until the end of your first semester.  Additionally, while we do not have the REQUIRED quantitative training that SAIS has, you can take just as many (if not more) quantitative course as their programme requires.  I would especially recommend Georgetown for this area because, since the university overall tends to be more IR focused, there are a lot of classes in the school of public policy and the business school that have international focuses which you can take as electives and, in some cases, even to fulfill requirements.  This is something you don't quite get at SAIS because they are so separate from the rest of Johns Hopkins, but here in MSFS you can really take any class you want across the university with very few exceptions.  There are also a lot of quantitative offerings in-department.

I would recommend the above especially if the Johns Hopkins quant requirements make you nervous but offer skills you would like.  Having more flexibility in your quant requirements allows you to take quant classes more directly related to your interests, hopefully making you less nervous.

As to your concerns about their in-country network, I had similar concerns upon matriculation only to find that once in, you have full access to their network, which is far more expansive than I imagined.  And, unlike the other schools, the Graduate School of Foreign Service has a career center dedicated entirely to grad students in our programme, security studies, and the regional studies programmes.  I have always been a bit skeptical of career centers, but they are far more helpful than I imagined and are extremely practiced in helping students (and alumni, you have lifetime access) find their dream jobs in any sector and assisting in networking, both with alumni and through other facets.

As an example, I was looking at a job opening that interested me in the Ukraine office of Freedom House (an international watchdog).  The career advisor was genuinely surprised that there was no Georgetown alum in the ten-person office (and had the resources to look that up).  So, instead, she gave me contact information to three alumni in the DC office, two working at Freedom House in other post-Soviet countries, one who had previously worked in the Kyiv office, and showed me where to find others working in Kyiv in similar organizations.

My recommendation would be to apply to all three programmes if you're interested, then once you get admissions decisions, you can attend Admitted Students Day and learn from the programmes directly and feel where you would fit best.  Alternatively, all of the programmes employ full-time outreach/admissions staff who are eager to speak to prospective students.  Maybe try reaching out!

[went_away]

On 10/17/2019 at 7:25 PM, irinprogress said:

Current MSFS student here!  Georgetown definitely does a good job at private sector training, especially in the IDEV and International Business & Finance concentrations, it's really only the Global Politics and Security concentration that is public sector-oriented.  To be clear, you do not have to choose a concentration until the end of your first semester.  Additionally, while we do not have the REQUIRED quantitative training that SAIS has, you can take just as many (if not more) quantitative course as their programme requires.  I would especially recommend Georgetown for this area because, since the university overall tends to be more IR focused, there are a lot of classes in the school of public policy and the business school that have international focuses which you can take as electives and, in some cases, even to fulfill requirements.  This is something you don't quite get at SAIS because they are so separate from the rest of Johns Hopkins, but here in MSFS you can really take any class you want across the university with very few exceptions.  There are also a lot of quantitative offerings in-department.

I would recommend the above especially if the Johns Hopkins quant requirements make you nervous but offer skills you would like.  Having more flexibility in your quant requirements allows you to take quant classes more directly related to your interests, hopefully making you less nervous.

As to your concerns about their in-country network, I had similar concerns upon matriculation only to find that once in, you have full access to their network, which is far more expansive than I imagined.  And, unlike the other schools, the Graduate School of Foreign Service has a career center dedicated entirely to grad students in our programme, security studies, and the regional studies programmes.  I have always been a bit skeptical of career centers, but they are far more helpful than I imagined and are extremely practiced in helping students (and alumni, you have lifetime access) find their dream jobs in any sector and assisting in networking, both with alumni and through other facets.

As an example, I was looking at a job opening that interested me in the Ukraine office of Freedom House (an international watchdog).  The career advisor was genuinely surprised that there was no Georgetown alum in the ten-person office (and had the resources to look that up).  So, instead, she gave me contact information to three alumni in the DC office, two working at Freedom House in other post-Soviet countries, one who had previously worked in the Kyiv office, and showed me where to find others working in Kyiv in similar organizations.

My recommendation would be to apply to all three programmes if you're interested, then once you get admissions decisions, you can attend Admitted Students Day and learn from the programmes directly and feel where you would fit best.  Alternatively, all of the programmes employ full-time outreach/admissions staff who are eager to speak to prospective students.  Maybe try reaching out!

This is great, current info from someone within the MSFS program right now. Your effusive feedback matches my impressions that the MSFS program outperforms SAIS/Fletcher MALD/SIPA.

My caution extends to all programs in this field (except maybe Princeton and Yale): the career and earning prospects of international affairs degree holders are outweighed by their cost. Take Freedom House - a mid-level management position at the DC HQ will pay less than $80k (for someone with 2-3 years experience and a fresh master's degree think closer to $40-50k).

My exhortation from the above would be for IR folks to look carefully at our field's (generally terrible and competitive) job market and what skills and experience will truly pay off in combination with an ostensibly elite degree. In my experience and observations: veteran's preferential hiring status, a special government hiring route or fellowship, a security clearance (ideally a top secret at least), a technical cert like the PMP, a solid/unique combination of skill sets (check out Neil Irwin's book, How to Win - great resource on combining skill sets to be the most competitive for a particular job).

As always, remember that foreign policy and diplomacy are still a rich man's game. Who your father is and your last name will matter far more than any of the above - just check out the Council on Foreign Relations permanent member list (if you went to Harvard/Princeton/Yale/Stanford undergrad none of this matters - you'll be fine).

[irinprogress]

You are absolutely right, no matter what an IR degree you get, just getting a degree isn’t enough, even if it’s from an elite school. The true value of an elite school is that they help you in getting those other boosting opportunities you mention. For instance, Georgetown has helped me in getting several fellowships and pursue various opportunities which have given me non-competitive hiring status in the federal government, security clearances, and, of course, funding among other career-enhancing perks.
 

While I don’t necessarily agree that family name is the most important thing in the field, I won’t deny that it helps. However, that should be even more reason to go to an elite school such as Georgetown because a strong alumni network that generally feels very close to the programme can help in making the same sorts of connections that a family name would make. 
 

Yes, money is certainly a concern. There are some jobs in the field that do extremely well (international finance, consulting, defence contracting or high-level think tanks to name a few) but I won’t pretend they are the majority. I will also say students from top schools do tend to have slightly higher salaries upon entrance into the workforce and our career center helps with salary negotiation. And in federal jobs, you do enter higher on the pay grade. Once you’re in, it’s much more difficult to move on the pay grade scale. This pay grade bump from the beginning pays for the degree over time in a real (and easily calculable) way. It’s kind of nice that this is one of the few careers where you can actually know for sure the exact dollar amount your degree is worth. 
 

Finally I’ll point out that, while they’re still working out some kinks in the system, the US government has a programme where after ten years of public service and regular loan payments they will forgive any remaining loans. Most non-profit and government jobs are eligible and you can change jobs to as many employers/positions as you like within that as long as all the positions are eligible. So that’s an option for most people considering this path. 
 

So overall, with a few exceptions, leave your dreams of a lucrative salary at the door. That’s not the reason to get an IR degree. However, if you’re patient for the long-term payoff, could benefit from the career-long assistance and network some programmes can provide or, most importantly, you genuinely want to learn more about a subject you love, get an IR master’s. Once you’ve made that decision, it’s usually worth a little more money to make sure your money is spent well. You can do that by optimising your application and finding the programme that best suits your needs. And that’s what this forum is all about!!