Should I get LOR from my undergrad prof. vs. another Master's prof. for my PhD application?

[Cosmic]

First of all, thank you for helping out the ever demanding newbies This is a great forum!

Background:

- I just finished my Master's (4th tier but highly ranked program) and applying to certain Fall '11 PhD programs (not same as my Master's program but somewhat relevant) at different schools (1st and 3rd tier). Now, here's the twist: My overall, final Bachelor's (3rd tier) CGPA is 2.85 (lost my tuition scholarship after 2.5 years - however, did quite well in my last semester - straight A's in all grad level courses, dean's list) with a 3.0 MGPA.

- My undergraduate advisor/professor (and other professors) believed me in and helped me get into a decent ranked program for my Master's. I did exceptionally well in my Master's (RA for 2 years - full scholarship, 3 top internships, industry case studies, papers published etc.)

Now, I have a question for you experienced folks and would appreciate any comments/suggestions etc:

I'm planning to get one LOR (professional) from where I'll be interning this year (relevant to my PhD focus) and the rest two (academic) from my current dept. professors. However, for the academic one, I'm starting to think if I should rather get one from dept. (my current advisor, another great mentor, who has known me for 2+ years) and one from my undergraduate prof. who mentored me to what I'm today. I'm still in touch with him (he just emailed me yesterday). He's well-known in his field (not directly related to my Master's or PhD field/focus though) and has known me for more than 6 years.

What do you guys think? TIA.

Edit: P.S. I'm not interested in sending more than three LORs.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Cosmic

[Venetia]

I considered including an LoR from my undergraduate institution as well as two from my Masters when I applied last year, but ultimately I chose not to, for these reasons:

1) Many universities want to hear about your graduate work (if you have it). I remember that on a couple of my universities' websites, they specifically said they preferred references from grad school rather than undergrad. Of the top of my head, I remember UVA was one, their website says: 'Applicants who have done graduate work elsewhere should request three letters from instructors familiar with their graduate work.'

2) When I wrote to my undergrad prof asking about a reference, she said that she would be very happy to write one BUT it might not be the best plan. She pointed out that grad schools might read into it, thinking that I obviously wasn't memorable/amazing enough to get three references from my grad school, and that universities (as above) would want referees familiar with graduate work.

This was for English, so perhaps it's different in other subjects. I can also understand your desire to pump up your undergrad GPA by getting a super duper reference from a prof that really believes in you. It's just good to be aware of how some adcomms (allegedly) think.

[Jae B.]

I would definitely go with the undergrad professor. Never underestimate them. Two current, one recent past is a good balance. And the voice of someone you've really made proud is priceless. Plus, it'll be a boost to your undergrad record -- your Masters is more important but they'll still look at your undergrad from what I've heard on these forums!

[Cosmic]

Interesting comments, Venetia and Jae B While it's true that I want to make up for my undergraduate failures (I was a foreign kid from a small 3rd world village, new to the States, 17 yo, cultural shock, lost) by getting a LOR (that describes my determination etc. but briefly and hardly touches on my research interests) from someone who saw my potential and had faith in me, at the same time, I'm worried about it's relevancy to an important PhD admission requirement: i.e. "can you write a freaking research paper? Point that out in your LORs where the profs. can attest to your ability to do quality research."

Bottomline remark is: Excluding your professional recommender, do you really need a minimum of two professors to attest to your ability to do research or one is sufficient?

HAH

[Emilee]

I was in the same situation this application season (I just finished my Master's). My Master's advisor was actually the one that made the suggestion to get a letter from a undergrad professor, so that schools' have some perspective on how I have done in the past. Plus, the undergrad professor knew me longer than the other professors and, as a result, was able to write a strong letter. I think it worked in my favor, and I was very successful in getting into a competitive program.

That being said, I did have an extra LOR (4 total). Three were from graduate level professors and one from undergrad level. So, assuming all four people will write awesome letters for you, why not ask all four and send them all in? Unless schools explicitly say do not send extra letters, it really shouldn't hurt your chances and it serve as "insurance", in case one of the letters goes missing.

Good luck.

[GK Chesterton]

<br />Interesting comments, Venetia and Jae B <img src='http://forum.thegradcafe.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> While it's true that I want to make up for my undergraduate failures (I was a foreign kid from a small 3rd world village, new to the States, 17 yo, cultural shock, lost) by getting a LOR (that describes my determination etc. but briefly and hardly touches on my research interests) from someone who saw my potential and had faith in me, at the same time, I'm worried about it's relevancy to an important PhD admission requirement: i.e. &quot;can you write a freaking research paper? Point that out in your LORs where the profs. can attest to your ability to do quality research.&quot; <br /><br />Bottomline remark is: Excluding your professional recommender, do you really need a minimum of two professors to attest to your ability to do research or one is sufficient? <br /><br />HAH <img src='http://forum.thegradcafe.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

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May I ask how you made it to the US from a small 3rd world village?

[Cosmic]

I was in the same situation this application season (I just finished my Master's). My Master's advisor was actually the one that made the suggestion to get a letter from a undergrad professor, so that schools' have some perspective on how I have done in the past. Plus, the undergrad professor knew me longer than the other professors and, as a result, was able to write a strong letter. I think it worked in my favor, and I was very successful in getting into a competitive program.

That being said, I did have an extra LOR (4 total). Three were from graduate level professors and one from undergrad level. So, assuming all four people will write awesome letters for you, why not ask all four and send them all in? Unless schools explicitly say do not send extra letters, it really shouldn't hurt your chances and it serve as "insurance", in case one of the letters goes missing.

Good luck.

Your story is almost same as mine, Emilee. Hmm..Certain PhD admission sites only mention this: "Three LORs required" without words such as "maximum", "at most", "only"

etc. I think the best option is to email Adcom/office and see what they have to say.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Cosmic

[Cosmic]

<br /><br /><br />

May I ask how you made it to the US from a small 3rd world village?

Ah. Unexpected query. Well.. My elder brother was already doing his PhD in the States, scholarship, family pressure (typical). Is that enough of an answer?

[lily_]

Hi5 for a sub 3.0 UPGA PhD hopeful! I never realized there were more of us than I had originally thought.

Your LOR from your undergraduate days might be a positive spin on your package. You have a representative from your graduate work, one from professional, which is great. But who is going to tell your story of how you found your passion in life and turned your academic career around and worked your butt off and are a total success now? No one better than your undergraduate professor. Who else can tell that ad comm, that no really your UPGA is not indicative of what you're capable of and that they've seen the change in you.

I also second Emilee's suggestion that you should go ahead and have all four write letters for you unless it explicitly states otherwise. At worst, they throw one out at random. At best, they see how many people think you're great and deserving of a PhD!

[Cosmic]

Hi5 for a sub 3.0 UPGA PhD hopeful! I never realized there were more of us than I had originally thought.

Your LOR from your undergraduate days might be a positive spin on your package. You have a representative from your graduate work, one from professional, which is great. But who is going to tell your story of how you found your passion in life and turned your academic career around and worked your butt off and are a total success now? No one better than your undergraduate professor. Who else can tell that ad comm, that no really your UPGA is not indicative of what you're capable of and that they've seen the change in you.

I also second Emilee's suggestion that you should go ahead and have all four write letters for you unless it explicitly states otherwise. At worst, they throw one out at random. At best, they see how many people think you're great and deserving of a PhD!

Hi5 You're absolutely right, lily. I like what you're saying. Again, it would be better to ask Adcomm before firing four LORs and wishing for some good luck.