Meeting GPA requirements, but having a bad transcript due to unfortunate life circumstances

[carlycm]

Hi everyone, 

I'm starting the process of applying to MPA/Nonprofit programs for Fall 2021 admission. My undergraduate GPA is 3.1 and the schools I plan to apply to have 2.5 and 3.0 GPA requirements. I'm planning to take the GRE in September since my GPA is just above the 3.0 requirement for my dream school, and I want to do everything I can to increase my odds. 

What I'm really worried about is that my undergraduate transcript is all over the place. I ended my first semester with two D's and one W. This was mainly because I struggled to adjust to college and didn't know what I was doing at first. Fortunately, for a couple of semesters after that I received all A's and B's and was doing well. Due to personal life experiences my grades began to fall again during the spring semester of my junior year. I had to permanently cut my dad, bother and my entire dads side of the family out of my life due to harassment and emotional abuse. That spring I received an F in one of my classes, and the rest of my grades were decent. During the fall semester of my senior year I was sexually harassed and to some degree stalked by a man I did not know. I only recognized him and knew the sound of his voice from when he would approach me but I never knew his name or anything about him. I filed a police report, and told him the next time he approached me and thankfully he left me alone after that. Due to the mental distress I was dealing with I withdrew from 2 classes and received those 2 W's on my transcript. I started doing okay again, and due to the W's ended up having to take a super senior fall semester. During my 5th year fall semester my friend was tragically killed in a drunk driving accident. I was devastated, but determined to finally finish my degree, and as a result 2 out of my 4 final grades were C's. Due to all of these things I've mentioned I suffered from a lot of depression and anxiety throughout my undergraduate experience that contributed to my grades being all over the place. 

I plan to write a statement about my circumstances in addition to everything else required in my applications. I'm also honestly just worried that I wont even be considered as a serious applicant due to my sub par performance in undergrad. I'm really determined, but I doubt myself at times and doubt if I'd be accepted anywhere. Does anyone have any tips on how to write a statement like this? I know that at the end of the day my grades were my responsibility and that there's a chance I could have done better during my undergrad studies. I want an admissions committee to understand where I'm coming from, but I also want them to know that I don't expect things to be handed to me and that I'm ready to work hard to earn my masters degree. I also need advice on how to find balance between being too personal about my struggles and turning those struggles into motivation to succeed. Unfortunately for me since most of these issues with my grades happened in the latter part of undergrad I don't have physical proof of improvement, and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to show them that they can count on me to be a good student. 

I appreciate all the advice and help I can get, 

Thank you!

Edited May 12, 2020 by carlycm
spelling

[GradSchoolGrad]

18 hours ago, carlycm said:

Hi everyone, 

I'm starting the process of applying to MPA/Nonprofit programs for Fall 2021 admission. My undergraduate GPA is 3.1 and the schools I plan to apply to have 2.5 and 3.0 GPA requirements. I'm planning to take the GRE in September since my GPA is just above the 3.0 requirement for my dream school, and I want to do everything I can to increase my odds. 

What I'm really worried about is that my undergraduate transcript is all over the place. I ended my first semester with two D's and one W. This was mainly because I struggled to adjust to college and didn't know what I was doing at first. Fortunately, for a couple of semesters after that I received all A's and B's and was doing well. Due to personal life experiences my grades began to fall again during the spring semester of my junior year. I had to permanently cut my dad, bother and my entire dads side of the family out of my life due to harassment and emotional abuse. That spring I received an F in one of my classes, and the rest of my grades were decent. During the fall semester of my senior year I was sexually harassed and to some degree stalked by a man I did not know. I only recognized him and knew the sound of his voice from when he would approach me but I never knew his name or anything about him. I filed a police report, and told him the next time he approached me and thankfully he left me alone after that. Due to the mental distress I was dealing with I withdrew from 2 classes and received those 2 W's on my transcript. I started doing okay again, and due to the W's ended up having to take a super senior fall semester. During my 5th year fall semester my friend was tragically killed in a drunk driving accident. I was devastated, but determined to finally finish my degree, and as a result 2 out of my 4 final grades were C's. Due to all of these things I've mentioned I suffered from a lot of depression and anxiety throughout my undergraduate experience that contributed to my grades being all over the place. 

I plan to write a statement about my circumstances in addition to everything else required in my applications. I'm also honestly just worried that I wont even be considered as a serious applicant due to my sub par performance in undergrad. I'm really determined, but I doubt myself at times and doubt if I'd be accepted anywhere. Does anyone have any tips on how to write a statement like this? I know that at the end of the day my grades were my responsibility and that there's a chance I could have done better during my undergrad studies. I want an admissions committee to understand where I'm coming from, but I also want them to know that I don't expect things to be handed to me and that I'm ready to work hard to earn my masters degree. I also need advice on how to find balance between being too personal about my struggles and turning those struggles into motivation to succeed. Unfortunately for me since most of these issues with my grades happened in the latter part of undergrad I don't have physical proof of improvement, and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to show them that they can count on me to be a good student. 

I appreciate all the advice and help I can get, 

Thank you!

First off... Having a 3.1 GPA with all circumstances considered is still impressive...

Your situations is not impossible to over come.

Some things that I don't know which can determine a lot of things... 1. The school you went to and 2. the difficulty of your major/s

Obviously, it becomes easier to overcome if you a harder major (or honors thesis) + which to a higher end school.

As for tips about the statement:

1. Avoid the jarring details and the direct tie-in and tell a story. If it doesn't sound like it could be a speech (within reason) or have the "dateline effect", please modify it.

2. Highlight what you did to overcome adversity to get what grades you did do to show that you are serious about academics.

Also another tip. If you want to show how you are of decent academic caliber, I recommend you take a hard class at a nearby school (a reputable state school is fine --> I did 3 at Michigan State and Colorado State (Econ and statistics classes) and get an A. If the grad program you are looking at has pre-reqs or substitute undergrad classes that allow you to skip a grad school class, this is a great means to do so + show your academic chops. This does not mean sign up for Harvard Extension school for a leadership class. By signing up for a hard class, I legitimately mean something that will make and admissions office be impressed by your academic potential. 

[carlycm]

On 5/12/2020 at 12:33 PM, GradSchoolGrad said:

First off... Having a 3.1 GPA with all circumstances considered is still impressive...

Your situations is not impossible to over come.

Some things that I don't know which can determine a lot of things... 1. The school you went to and 2. the difficulty of your major/s

Obviously, it becomes easier to overcome if you a harder major (or honors thesis) + which to a higher end school.

As for tips about the statement:

1. Avoid the jarring details and the direct tie-in and tell a story. If it doesn't sound like it could be a speech (within reason) or have the "dateline effect", please modify it.

2. Highlight what you did to overcome adversity to get what grades you did do to show that you are serious about academics.

Also another tip. If you want to show how you are of decent academic caliber, I recommend you take a hard class at a nearby school (a reputable state school is fine --> I did 3 at Michigan State and Colorado State (Econ and statistics classes) and get an A. If the grad program you are looking at has pre-reqs or substitute undergrad classes that allow you to skip a grad school class, this is a great means to do so + show your academic chops. This does not mean sign up for Harvard Extension school for a leadership class. By signing up for a hard class, I legitimately mean something that will make and admissions office be impressed by your academic potential. 

Hi,

Thank you for the response, I really appreciate it. 

To answer your questions I went to CU Boulder (class of 2018) and my major was Environmental Studies, so a mix of politics, econ, hard science, math and sociology. I did not do an honors thesis. As a person who is notoriously bad at science and math I'm pretty proud that I still managed to pull off the 3.1 GPA.

I like your advice on having it sound more like a reasonable speech. I have trouble writing about the shit i've been through, especially when its not anonymous. Sometimes I really don't know how to put all those feelings into words and end up sounding robotic because I don't want to inject too much emotion into it. I think my refusal to give up despite everything, and my ability to get B's in the classes I originally withdrew from/failed is a good sign. 

I'll definitely look into classes I could take at a local school, and if there are any pre-reqs I can take prior to applying to grad school. What do you think about retaking a statistics class I originally got a B- in if there aren't any pre-reqs I can take? I still live in Boulder and CU has a good continuing education program I could take advantage of. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by carlycm

[GradSchoolGrad]

1 hour ago, carlycm said:

Hi,

Thank you for the response, I really appreciate it. 

To answer your questions I went to CU Boulder (class of 2018) and my major was Environmental Studies, so a mix of politics, econ, hard science, math and sociology. I did not do an honors thesis. As a person who is notoriously bad at science and math I'm pretty proud that I still managed to pull off the 3.1 GPA.

I like your advice on having it sound more like a reasonable speech. I have trouble writing about the shit i've been through, especially when its not anonymous. Sometimes I really don't know how to put all those feelings into words and end up sounding robotic because I don't want to inject too much emotion into it. I think my refusal to give up despite everything, and my ability to get B's in the classes I originally withdrew from/failed is a good sign. 

I'll definitely look into classes I could take at a local school, and if there are any pre-reqs I can take prior to applying to grad school. What do you think about retaking a statistics class I originally got a B- in if there aren't any pre-reqs I can take? I still live in Boulder and CU has a good continuing education program I could take advantage of. 

1. As for your statement, I recommend you have a friend (preferably someone who is a good writer --> like wrote for the school newspaper or something) help you out. It should pass the story/speech/news article test of being interesting and powerful (not to trivialize your experience or anything).

2. Environmental Studies is considered medium to above average in terms of difficulty... so... I think it helps. Obviously, UC-Boulder is a highly respected state school.

3. I wouldn't just take any class.

A. I would look into classes that either replace core curriculum requirements in MPA programs of interest or at least set you up for success. The quant ones are usually what they look for in terms of transcripts. I recommend you look at what schools want first before you just willy nilly sign up for a class.

B. I wouldn't just got to any local school. Getting an A from a JCO or community college doesn't really help your case (not being snobby, but fact of the matter). Since you are in Colorado, I recommend you look at Colorado State Online. Great brand and honestly it will probably be cheaper than CU Boulder. 

https://www.online.colostate.edu 

Since you would get in state tuition --> and no application. I think summer classes are around the corner.

I used it to take stats classes to make the convincing case that I could handle the quant as someone who had never taking a quant class before. Oh and your transcript would be from Colorado State not some Colorado State extension or online --> which is the important thing! 

[carlycm]

3 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

1. As for your statement, I recommend you have a friend (preferably someone who is a good writer --> like wrote for the school newspaper or something) help you out. It should pass the story/speech/news article test of being interesting and powerful (not to trivialize your experience or anything).

2. Environmental Studies is considered medium to above average in terms of difficulty... so... I think it helps. Obviously, UC-Boulder is a highly respected state school.

3. I wouldn't just take any class.

A. I would look into classes that either replace core curriculum requirements in MPA programs of interest or at least set you up for success. The quant ones are usually what they look for in terms of transcripts. I recommend you look at what schools want first before you just willy nilly sign up for a class.

B. I wouldn't just got to any local school. Getting an A from a JCO or community college doesn't really help your case (not being snobby, but fact of the matter). Since you are in Colorado, I recommend you look at Colorado State Online. Great brand and honestly it will probably be cheaper than CU Boulder. 

https://www.online.colostate.edu 

Since you would get in state tuition --> and no application. I think summer classes are around the corner.

I used it to take stats classes to make the convincing case that I could handle the quant as someone who had never taking a quant class before. Oh and your transcript would be from Colorado State not some Colorado State extension or online --> which is the important thing! 

1. I've got a friend in law school who wrote an addendum for her law school apps, and she offered to help. We both had friends tragically die while we were in undergrad and her grades were affected just like mine were. She's smart as hell, so i'm very lucky.

2. My dream school is University of Oregon, and I would say CU and UofO are on the same level of respected public research universities. 

3. I'm thinking about reaching out to the graduate coordinator at UofO to see if he recommends any classes to take to strengthen my application. When I said local school I meant CSU, CU Boulder or CU Denver. CU Denver has one of the graduate programs I plan to apply to. I will look into Colorado State Online and probably CU Denver to see what they have to offer. Were you taking undergraduate level stats classes or were they graduate level? 

[GradSchoolGrad]

3 minutes ago, carlycm said:

1. I've got a friend in law school who wrote an addendum for her law school apps, and she offered to help. We both had friends tragically die while we were in undergrad and her grades were affected just like mine were. She's smart as hell, so i'm very lucky.

2. My dream school is University of Oregon, and I would say CU and UofO are on the same level of respected public research universities. 

3. I'm thinking about reaching out to the graduate coordinator at UofO to see if he recommends any classes to take to strengthen my application. When I said local school I meant CSU, CU Boulder or CU Denver. CU Denver has one of the graduate programs I plan to apply to. I will look into Colorado State Online and probably CU Denver to see what they have to offer. Were you taking undergraduate level stats classes or were they graduate level? 

1. I would challenge you to look at better schools. Depending on what additional academic cred you can get + what you GRE scores + usual admissions factors, you could very well end up at a better MPA program than what you would normally, and possibly do it with a scholarship. 

2. I took undergrad classes. Part of this is because you can actually fail undergrad classes and it is actually easier to do well in grad school than undergrad. Honestly, there are some undergrad classes that are just as hard, if not harder than grad classes. Also keep in mind, that the programs are also getting people straight from under as well and normally other people with grad class experience. It is easier to compare with a similar frame of reference. Also, there might not be grad classes with the offerings that you need to compensate for your quant gap. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[carlycm]

1 minute ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

1. I would challenge you to look at better schools. Depending on what additional academic cred you can get + what you GRE scores + usual admissions factors, you could very well end up at a better MPA program than what you would normally, and possibly do it with a scholarship. 

2. I took undergrad classes. Part of this is because you can actually fail undergrad classes and it is actually easier to do well in grad school than undergrad. Honestly, there are some undergrad classes that are just as hard, if not harder than grad classes. Also keep in mind, that the programs are also getting people straight from under as well and normally other people with grad class experience. It is easier to compare with a similar frame of reference. Also, there might not be grad classes with the offerings that you need to compensate for your quant gap. 

1. Damn really? Maybe i'm not giving myself enough credit, but I took a bunch of higher ranking schools off of my list thinking that they wouldn't accept me. I also love Colorado and Oregon and can see myself living in both those places long term, so I've been more focused on those schools. I started studying for the GRE last week to prepare for taking it in September, so I'm confident I can get a good score. I want to start now since I was laid off and have time, and its been a while since I've been in school. 

2. Why do you think its easier to do well in grad school versus undergrad? Hard classes? I've never heard this before so I'm pretty shocked. Its also wild to me that students go straight to graduate school. I think its good to take some time to get work experience and figure yourself out. 

[GradSchoolGrad]

56 minutes ago, carlycm said:

1. Damn really? Maybe i'm not giving myself enough credit, but I took a bunch of higher ranking schools off of my list thinking that they wouldn't accept me. I also love Colorado and Oregon and can see myself living in both those places long term, so I've been more focused on those schools. I started studying for the GRE last week to prepare for taking it in September, so I'm confident I can get a good score. I want to start now since I was laid off and have time, and its been a while since I've been in school. 

2. Why do you think its easier to do well in grad school versus undergrad? Hard classes? I've never heard this before so I'm pretty shocked. Its also wild to me that students go straight to graduate school. I think its good to take some time to get work experience and figure yourself out. 

1. Okay getting laid off changes things a little bit. I recommend you continue to do something, even if that is incorporating yourself and having a side hustle as YouTube or independent contractor. Breaks in resume begin to look suspicious and traditionally is associated with performance gaps. Granted, we live in extraordinary times and it is very understandable... However, historical biases die hard.

2. Depending on what school you go to, some decent state schools have graduation rates as low as 70% or so. In what is called terminal degree grad programs, they look really bad if they have graduation rates below 90%... and it isn't a good business operations. Grad schools are generally speaking money generators while undergrad programs are money losers (long story about that). If grad schools lose too many people, it becomes a bad business model. 

Not saying it is objectively easier in grad school, but the failure rate its less and it is exceedingly rare to hear anyone get below a B. You can relate that to fit, filtering out bad students, excitement for the subject and etc. However for you what that means is that an A from undergrad (since they generally have broadly understandable titles) means more than an A from a grad class (assuming that the admissions office can't discern if the the class is real or a BS class --> which is often the case).

Edited May 15, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[carlycm]

19 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

1. Okay getting laid off changes things a little bit. I recommend you continue to do something, even if that is incorporating yourself and having a side hustle as YouTube or independent contractor. Breaks in resume begin to look suspicious and traditionally is associated with performance gaps. Granted, we live in extraordinary times and it is very understandable... However, historical biases die hard.

2. Depending on what school you go to, some decent state schools have graduation rates as low as 70% or so. In what is called terminal degree grad programs, they look really bad if they have graduation rates below 90%... and it isn't a good business operations. Grad schools are generally speaking money generators while undergrad programs are money losers (long story about that). If grad schools lose too many people, it becomes a bad business model. 

Not saying it is objectively easier in grad school, but the failure rate its less and it is exceedingly rare to hear anyone get below a B. You can relate that to fit, filtering out bad students, excitement for the subject and etc. However for you what that means is that an A from undergrad (since they generally have broadly understandable titles) means more than an A from a grad class (assuming that the admissions office can't discern if the the class is real or a BS class --> which is often the case).

1. I get what you're saying, but I'm not too worried. I was actually furloughed, but expect I will be laid off on June 1st when they make the official layoff announcement. I'm actively applying to jobs right now and don't expect there to be much of a break in my resume. Considering that 36 million Americans have lost their jobs due to Covid-19, I think employers/grad schools will be more accepting. I don't think thats a naive assumption, but please correct me if i'm wrong. 

[GradSchoolGrad]

1 hour ago, carlycm said:

1. I get what you're saying, but I'm not too worried. I was actually furloughed, but expect I will be laid off on June 1st when they make the official layoff announcement. I'm actively applying to jobs right now and don't expect there to be much of a break in my resume. Considering that 36 million Americans have lost their jobs due to Covid-19, I think employers/grad schools will be more accepting. I don't think thats a naive assumption, but please correct me if i'm wrong. 

Well you are correct about it being more accepting. That is most likely true. HOWEVER... from a pure competitive perspective if you up for a slot against someone who for whatever reason doesn't have a resume gap, the other person will be better off.  You already have one strike against you... (granted it can be mitigated with quality everything else + plus a well written letter), so another vulnerability doesn't really help (granted it will likely be highly be mitigated because of today's times).

Again, these probably won't matter if your goal is to go to the schools that you mention. However, I once again challenge you to aspire to go to the best MPA school you can go to within financial reason. Someone could easily challenge me and say why because your average salary coming out + type of jobs are not going to be that significantly different. However, I would argue back this.

1. with a better program --> your range of options can increase. This matters because most of my friends who went to policy school changed their career interests at least somewhat between when they started and when they left.

2. It really can give you a wow factor that can benefit you down the line (granted it must be backed up by competence, experience, and communication skills). 

3. You want to be in an environment where you have peers push you. 

What are better branded policy schools is a separate conversation... (because they do not necessarily correlate with undergrad branding). 

Edited May 15, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[Sigaba]

On 5/11/2020 at 5:40 PM, carlycm said:

I also need advice on how to find balance between being too personal about my struggles and turning those struggles into motivation to succeed.

Hi, @carlycm

With some digging, you will find a number of posts across various fora that discuss the benefits and challenges of discussing one's personal struggles in a statement of purpose as well as suggestions on how to discuss a GPA that is less than one would like. My recommendation would be for you not to mention any of the details of your experiences beyond an eloquent thumbnail summary of "personal setbacks and losses" with a very quick pivot towards "lessons learned" and how you will apply those lessons when you start graduate school the fall after next. In this discussion of how you will apply those lessons, you could indicate tactfully that you're fully prepared to focus on your school work despite the ongoing impacts of at least three global crises (COVID-19, a recession, and what ever else).

As you consider schools and programs, please consider the benefits of doing your due diligence IRT available resources for undergraduates and graduates who have had traumatic experiences as well as the school's and program's policies and practices regarding harassment.

[carlycm]

On 5/14/2020 at 7:58 PM, GradSchoolGrad said:

Well you are correct about it being more accepting. That is most likely true. HOWEVER... from a pure competitive perspective if you up for a slot against someone who for whatever reason doesn't have a resume gap, the other person will be better off.  You already have one strike against you... (granted it can be mitigated with quality everything else + plus a well written letter), so another vulnerability doesn't really help (granted it will likely be highly be mitigated because of today's times).

Again, these probably won't matter if your goal is to go to the schools that you mention. However, I once again challenge you to aspire to go to the best MPA school you can go to within financial reason. Someone could easily challenge me and say why because your average salary coming out + type of jobs are not going to be that significantly different. However, I would argue back this.

1. with a better program --> your range of options can increase. This matters because most of my friends who went to policy school changed their career interests at least somewhat between when they started and when they left.

2. It really can give you a wow factor that can benefit you down the line (granted it must be backed up by competence, experience, and communication skills). 

3. You want to be in an environment where you have peers push you. 

What are better branded policy schools is a separate conversation... (because they do not necessarily correlate with undergrad branding). 

You have a good point, but I'm not going to stress about it. What I can control right now is applying to jobs so i'm going to keep doing that until i've got one, and submit strong applications once that time comes. I did some more digging and found 2 more schools that I plan to apply to that have better programs than the ones I previously mentioned. I appreciate your encouragement! Thank you for that, and taking the time to talk to me about everything!

My two interests right now are environmental policy and nonprofit management, but you're totally right that my interests could change further down the line. I'd prefer a learning environment that encourages high achievement, and I do well under pressure. I'd like to go somewhere that will provide a strong community and lots of resources for career development and networking. 

I see that you went to Georgetown for your MPP. How was your experience there? Where else did you apply? I'm thinking of applying to University of Washington (Evans) and University of Minnesota (Humphrey). I have family in the PNW, Minnesota/Wisconsin, and I currently live in Colorado, so I'd prefer to pursue my degree in a place I can see myself settling down in. I know that that is limiting to some degree, but family and community are incredibly important to me. 

[carlycm]

On 5/14/2020 at 9:36 PM, Sigaba said:

Hi, @carlycm

With some digging, you will find a number of posts across various fora that discuss the benefits and challenges of discussing one's personal struggles in a statement of purpose as well as suggestions on how to discuss a GPA that is less than one would like. My recommendation would be for you not to mention any of the details of your experiences beyond an eloquent thumbnail summary of "personal setbacks and losses" with a very quick pivot towards "lessons learned" and how you will apply those lessons when you start graduate school the fall after next. In this discussion of how you will apply those lessons, you could indicate tactfully that you're fully prepared to focus on your school work despite the ongoing impacts of at least three global crises (COVID-19, a recession, and what ever else).

As you consider schools and programs, please consider the benefits of doing your due diligence IRT available resources for undergraduates and graduates who have had traumatic experiences as well as the school's and program's policies and practices regarding harassment.

Hello!

Thanks for the info about the other posts! I'll look into those and see how others are tackling their situations. I think you're right about sparing the details, especially since I'd rather not share them. I've had a hectic life, but I've finally reached the point where I feel prepared for the challenges of graduate school, and I'll make sure to share that in my statement. What do you think about offering to provide more information about my traumas to admissions committees if they feel it is necessary? Is that something I should offer, and would they even ask? I'm prepared to do that if it will be helpful.

My alma mater did provide a couple of free counseling sessions, but other than that I did not receive much guidance on available resources during my times of need. Fortunately, I'm older, wiser and better able to advocate for myself if that need should arise. I will make sure to research policies and resources available at the schools I plan to apply to, and I greatly appreciate your advice. Thank you!  

[GradSchoolGrad]

2 hours ago, carlycm said:

You have a good point, but I'm not going to stress about it. What I can control right now is applying to jobs so i'm going to keep doing that until i've got one, and submit strong applications once that time comes. I did some more digging and found 2 more schools that I plan to apply to that have better programs than the ones I previously mentioned. I appreciate your encouragement! Thank you for that, and taking the time to talk to me about everything!

My two interests right now are environmental policy and nonprofit management, but you're totally right that my interests could change further down the line. I'd prefer a learning environment that encourages high achievement, and I do well under pressure. I'd like to go somewhere that will provide a strong community and lots of resources for career development and networking. 

I see that you went to Georgetown for your MPP. How was your experience there? Where else did you apply? I'm thinking of applying to University of Washington (Evans) and University of Minnesota (Humphrey). I have family in the PNW, Minnesota/Wisconsin, and I currently live in Colorado, so I'd prefer to pursue my degree in a place I can see myself settling down in. I know that that is limiting to some degree, but family and community are incredibly important to me. 

So in terms of schools, I think there are 3 ways you can think of this, and I recommend you pick a strategy.

1. Regional schools where you have connections... (which I think that is what you are approaching).

I would agree that Evans is probably the best for the Northwest and that Humphrey is probably the best for The Minnesota/Iowa region. Generally speaking (exemptions are plenty), those schools generally have greatest appeal regionally in terms where people go for jobs + brand recognition from employers. If you absolutely know that you want to be close to family after graduation (which is financially smart) especially after a recession, I think a regional strategy makes sense.

2. National level schools where you have career flexibility because they are generally good at most things domestic policy related.

If you want ultimate career flexibility and have an expansive network and brand nationally (maybe even internationally), I think this is the way to go. I would say that you options here are a bit limited. I'm sure some might agree with me, but I bet the "best" branded policy school you could realistically get into is probably Duke's Terry Sanford MPP program. Michigan's Ford MPA is another example

I want to clarify that there is a difference between brand for the purpose of public policy and brand generally speaking. For example, Stanford, Cornell, and U. Penn have MPP or MPA programs where I think you have a decent shot of getting into... that obviously have an amazing brand and alumni network as a University. HOWEVER... their policy programs are simply not that good as a graduate program and they will have much less dedicated resources to support policy grad students vs. University of Indiana or Syracuse University, two of the top tier policy graduate programs. 

3. Focused programs (if you are really willing to gamble that you are set with a policy area - i.e. environmental). 

If you know in your heart that you want to do environmental, another way to approach is to go for an environmental management / science / policy focused school. The top 3 in the country for this are - Yale Forestry and Environmental, Duke Nicholas School, and Michigan SEAS.

If you get into any of these, traditionally they have a pretty good scholarship packages (I don't know how a COVID-19 level recession might change things). 

Ultimately, it is about what you think is the best long term strategy for your life. I can see you doing possibly any of these. Personally, I like #2 for myself if I were in your shoes because:

A. I personally believe flexibility is important

B. I think it is good to have high aspirations. Even if you elect to return to Colorado, coming from Duke, Michigan, or Yale will help you sparkle over someone locally (assuming you have a compelling story and made the right connections). 

C. You will have the peers that push you hardest

How not to think about schools

Do not think about it school blindly based off of brand without looking what they are good at (and that might require some detective work). I'll save you the detective work for Georgetown MPP. It is not good for environmental stuff + state and local stuff (which it sounds like what you are interested in). It is great for 3 general things in my opinion. 1. Federal powers related items, 2. International development, and 3. Data analysis angle 

MPP vs. MPA vs. MBA

Very generally speaking, MPP and MPAs compete for the same jobs. However, in terms of classroom material, MPP tends to be more analytical and data focused while MPA tends have more managerial components. Beyond that, you have to drill down to the school level to distinguish differences. 

I only throw in MBA in there because as I said previously, more and more the most valued way to go into non-profit management is to get any MBA. So if you end up in a job you really like and might want to delay grad school for 2 years or so, an MBA might be the right answer for you if you are committed to non-profit management. 

 

[carlycm]

19 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

So in terms of schools, I think there are 3 ways you can think of this, and I recommend you pick a strategy.

1. Regional schools where you have connections... (which I think that is what you are approaching).

I would agree that Evans is probably the best for the Northwest and that Humphrey is probably the best for The Minnesota/Iowa region. Generally speaking (exemptions are plenty), those schools generally have greatest appeal regionally in terms where people go for jobs + brand recognition from employers. If you absolutely know that you want to be close to family after graduation (which is financially smart) especially after a recession, I think a regional strategy makes sense.

2. National level schools where you have career flexibility because they are generally good at most things domestic policy related.

If you want ultimate career flexibility and have an expansive network and brand nationally (maybe even internationally), I think this is the way to go. I would say that you options here are a bit limited. I'm sure some might agree with me, but I bet the "best" branded policy school you could realistically get into is probably Duke's Terry Sanford MPP program. Michigan's Ford MPA is another example

I want to clarify that there is a difference between brand for the purpose of public policy and brand generally speaking. For example, Stanford, Cornell, and U. Penn have MPP or MPA programs where I think you have a decent shot of getting into... that obviously have an amazing brand and alumni network as a University. HOWEVER... their policy programs are simply not that good as a graduate program and they will have much less dedicated resources to support policy grad students vs. University of Indiana or Syracuse University, two of the top tier policy graduate programs. 

3. Focused programs (if you are really willing to gamble that you are set with a policy area - i.e. environmental). 

If you know in your heart that you want to do environmental, another way to approach is to go for an environmental management / science / policy focused school. The top 3 in the country for this are - Yale Forestry and Environmental, Duke Nicholas School, and Michigan SEAS.

If you get into any of these, traditionally they have a pretty good scholarship packages (I don't know how a COVID-19 level recession might change things). 

Ultimately, it is about what you think is the best long term strategy for your life. I can see you doing possibly any of these. Personally, I like #2 for myself if I were in your shoes because:

A. I personally believe flexibility is important

B. I think it is good to have high aspirations. Even if you elect to return to Colorado, coming from Duke, Michigan, or Yale will help you sparkle over someone locally (assuming you have a compelling story and made the right connections). 

C. You will have the peers that push you hardest

How not to think about schools

Do not think about it school blindly based off of brand without looking what they are good at (and that might require some detective work). I'll save you the detective work for Georgetown MPP. It is not good for environmental stuff + state and local stuff (which it sounds like what you are interested in). It is great for 3 general things in my opinion. 1. Federal powers related items, 2. International development, and 3. Data analysis angle 

MPP vs. MPA vs. MBA

Very generally speaking, MPP and MPAs compete for the same jobs. However, in terms of classroom material, MPP tends to be more analytical and data focused while MPA tends have more managerial components. Beyond that, you have to drill down to the school level to distinguish differences. 

I only throw in MBA in there because as I said previously, more and more the most valued way to go into non-profit management is to get any MBA. So if you end up in a job you really like and might want to delay grad school for 2 years or so, an MBA might be the right answer for you if you are committed to non-profit management. 

 

Hello!

Cost of tuition, availability of scholarships/aid, programs that fit my interests, and attending school in a location I really enjoy are the most important factors for me in making my decision. I'm not 100% sure about what I want my focus to be in, so i'm leaning more towards strategy 1.  I see why strategy 2 is appealing, but I'm realistic enough to know that many of those schools are out of reach, and thats okay. I'd rather find a program that will give me an amazing education and provide resources to help me succeed. 

I'm also thinking about waiting to apply for Fall 2022 admission. That will allow me time to research which programs work the best for me, study for the GRE and take it multiple times If I need to, get some more relevant work experience, save more money and retake an econ class if I can afford it. Waiting a little longer can help me figure out how to save the most money, and by the time I'm ready to apply I may be more clear on which direction I'd like to go in. 

I'm leaning towards MPA 100%. I'd like the ability to switch careers down the road if I want to, and I'm really only interested in state/local gov, environmental organizations and nonprofits. I know how my brain works and i'm sure I would be more successful in school going the MPA route vs. MPP. I'm not as interested in the analytical side of things, and my writing/communication/leadership skills are my strengths. 

[GradSchoolGrad]

3 hours ago, carlycm said:

Hello!

Cost of tuition, availability of scholarships/aid, programs that fit my interests, and attending school in a location I really enjoy are the most important factors for me in making my decision. I'm not 100% sure about what I want my focus to be in, so i'm leaning more towards strategy 1.  I see why strategy 2 is appealing, but I'm realistic enough to know that many of those schools are out of reach, and thats okay. I'd rather find a program that will give me an amazing education and provide resources to help me succeed. 

I'm also thinking about waiting to apply for Fall 2022 admission. That will allow me time to research which programs work the best for me, study for the GRE and take it multiple times If I need to, get some more relevant work experience, save more money and retake an econ class if I can afford it. Waiting a little longer can help me figure out how to save the most money, and by the time I'm ready to apply I may be more clear on which direction I'd like to go in. 

I'm leaning towards MPA 100%. I'd like the ability to switch careers down the road if I want to, and I'm really only interested in state/local gov, environmental organizations and nonprofits. I know how my brain works and i'm sure I would be more successful in school going the MPA route vs. MPP. I'm not as interested in the analytical side of things, and my writing/communication/leadership skills are my strengths. 

1. I agree timing-wise Fall 2022 makes sense for all the reasons you mentioned

2. I do recommend that you at least have one "reach" school with a national brand to shoot for. I say this for 3 reasons.

a. Some of them can have very generous scholarships as they are just trying to build the program period. 

b. You might as well try to see if you can do it in the first place before you count yourself out

c. Strategically, it's a good way to understand your competition (regardless where you end up going). 

For you, I recommend you pick either U. Penn - Fels MPA (stronger in Non-Profit Leadership) or Cornell MPA (stronger in environmental) from "the reach category".

However, any and all MPA program of remote value does require Stat and Econ (it is unavoidable) - FYI.

[carlycm]

9 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

1. I agree timing-wise Fall 2022 makes sense for all the reasons you mentioned

2. I do recommend that you at least have one "reach" school with a national brand to shoot for. I say this for 3 reasons.

a. Some of them can have very generous scholarships as they are just trying to build the program period. 

b. You might as well try to see if you can do it in the first place before you count yourself out

c. Strategically, it's a good way to understand your competition (regardless where you end up going). 

For you, I recommend you pick either U. Penn - Fels MPA (stronger in Non-Profit Leadership) or Cornell MPA (stronger in environmental) from "the reach category".

However, any and all MPA program of remote value does require Stat and Econ (it is unavoidable) - FYI.

I like your idea and i'll keep looking into it! If the stars align and I get into a school like that with a scholarship, I'd take that opportunity. The Northeast has never been too appealing to me, but I don't want to limit myself too much. 

I took stats and a couple of economics classes in undergrad and did okay in them. They're not strengths for me, but I can manage. I'll also be better prepared this time around to ask for help and hire a tutor if necessary. There were many resources I didn't take advantage of in undergrad and I wont make those same mistakes again! 

[GradSchoolGrad]

5 hours ago, carlycm said:

I like your idea and i'll keep looking into it! If the stars align and I get into a school like that with a scholarship, I'd take that opportunity. The Northeast has never been too appealing to me, but I don't want to limit myself too much. 

I took stats and a couple of economics classes in undergrad and did okay in them. They're not strengths for me, but I can manage. I'll also be better prepared this time around to ask for help and hire a tutor if necessary. There were many resources I didn't take advantage of in undergrad and I wont make those same mistakes again! 

If you aren't a fan of the NE, Michigan Ford just launched an MPA, although it will require 5 years work experience, so that would mean you are only eligible for Fall. 2023.

Honestly,  people are so busy in grad school, to a certain extent location doesn't matter from an experience perspective.  HOWEVER... there is much to be said about regional pull of schools. 

[prokem]

just to add on, at both Michigan and Duke you can do a great dual degree program between the  public policy and environmental schools. At Ford they also have a specific track for nonprofit management. I don't know anything about your work experience, but I wouldn't count yourself out at schools like that. If you look through the forums, you will find people who got acceptances and aid despite having limited relevant work experience or less than stellar undergrad transcripts. I think for you, having a great GRE score will definitely mitigate some of the concerns about GPA or class grades etc, as will great recommendations and a compelling SOP. Most schools look at apps holistically so even if you think you have one or two glaring weaknesses, that doesn't mean your app is hopeless.