Ph.D. Transfer

[taylorsands]

Has anyone successfully transferred in a statistics Ph.D.? In case one wants to transfer, when do they typically do so?

I know that it is possible and happens with reasonable frequency in computer science and math programs, but have not heard of that many people in a statistics program. I currently attend a program that is in the ~top 10 according to the USNW rankings. I think I would be best served by a transfer for research reasons. There is only 1 professor working in my area of interest and I do not believe they will be the best advisor. I also have some personal reasons regarding location.

[bayessays]

I have personally done this (dropped out and reapplied later) know people who have done it getting their MS.  It might be awkward, but if you've done well and hopefully can get a letter from someone in your current program, it won't be a huge issue.  Just be sure to explain it in your statement of purpose.   Transferring after the second year is a natural point because you can usually get a master's, and you haven't started research yet. 

[taylorsands]

8 minutes ago, bayessays said:

I have personally done this (dropped out and reapplied later) know people who have done it getting their MS.  It might be awkward, but if you've done well and hopefully can get a letter from someone in your current program, it won't be a huge issue.  Just be sure to explain it in your statement of purpose.   Transferring after the second year is a natural point because you can usually get a master's, and you haven't started research yet. 

Did you have to go somewhere overall easier to get into than your earlier program? It would be a little awkward in my case because 2 programs on my transfer list would be schools I was originally waitlisted at. Both of these programs are comparable to my current program.

[bayessays]

Hard to tell because there wasn't a lot of overlap in schools I applied to and there was a wide range of program ranks.  I dropped out of a ~50 ranked program and was wait listed at a top 5 this year.  My academic history is shaky, to say the least, and it really didn't seem to affect me nearly as much as I expected. 

I wouldn't bet on getting into programs that didn't let you in originally though.  If you're in a top 10 program, your profile was probably already really good so is there really a lot more for you to show now? But if you can get supportive positive letters from faculty at your current program, I wouldn't rule it out. I had poor undergraduate grades and doing well in my MS and getting letters from known professors seemed to help a lot. 

[StatsG0d]

I know someone who left a top-30 statistics program with a master's and ended up getting into a top-5 biostatistics program. That said, they were rejected everywhere else. I think it depends on whether the department you're applying to prefers master's applicants or not--some programs want students right from the beginning, others are willing to accept advanced students.

[taylorsands]

1 hour ago, StatsG0d said:

I know someone who left a top-30 statistics program with a master's and ended up getting into a top-5 biostatistics program. That said, they were rejected everywhere else. I think it depends on whether the department you're applying to prefers master's applicants or not--some programs want students right from the beginning, others are willing to accept advanced students.

Any sense of how I can decipher which departments are willing to accept more advanced students? Or anyone know for a fact which programs may be open to this? One of the two programs I am eyeing seems to take advanced students, either people who did a masters (I do not know if these were terminal masters or en-route masters before a transfer) and people many years (5+) out of college. 

[StatsG0d]

1 minute ago, taylorsands said:

Any sense of how I can decipher which departments are willing to accept more advanced students? Or anyone know for a fact which programs may be open to this? One of the two programs I am eyeing seems to take advanced students, either people who did a masters (I do not know if these were terminal masters or en-route masters before a transfer) and people many years (5+) out of college. 

That's a great question. My guess would be that programs that have their PhD qualifying exams after their second year would be more willing to accept master's students, probably because they would want you to take the core PhD classes in the department.

You could try emailing some of the graduate coordinators at the departments. In my experience, most of the time they are pretty receptive to emails. Worst case scenario, they ignore it and forget about it.

[incomingstatsPhD]

Any thoughts on people transferring in year 1? Say a student is joining in the fall and wants to send out applications in December for the next fall. I am an incoming PhD student, but I am having pretty serious second thoughts on my choice of school. I do not want to shake things up in terms of contacting my school and telling them I am having second thoughts, because I am unsure my other choice would be willing to respect the original offer. The pandemic has also made the situation even tougher on departments in terms of offers and funding. My issue is that I would not even really have an advisor from the school I am joining the fall who could write me a letter for fall 2021 because I would have just joined a few months earlier.

[StatsG0d]

1 hour ago, incomingstatsPhD said:

Any thoughts on people transferring in year 1? Say a student is joining in the fall and wants to send out applications in December for the next fall. I am an incoming PhD student, but I am having pretty serious second thoughts on my choice of school. I do not want to shake things up in terms of contacting my school and telling them I am having second thoughts, because I am unsure my other choice would be willing to respect the original offer. The pandemic has also made the situation even tougher on departments in terms of offers and funding. My issue is that I would not even really have an advisor from the school I am joining the fall who could write me a letter for fall 2021 because I would have just joined a few months earlier.

At this point in the admissions process, I highly doubt any of the school that you have already turned down would re-admit you because they have already admitted waitlisted students who would have taken your spot. One strategy would be to tell your current department that you can't come anymore for some reason and apply to other departments next year, but this could be risky as there's no guarantee you'll be accepted again. With recessions, more people become interested in graduate programs as they lose their jobs, so the competition could be much more fierce.

Why are you having second thoughts before joining the program? 

[Stat Assistant Professor]

I don't think it should be an issue to transfer if you've passed your qualifying exams. At my PhD program, I know there was one person who transferred to University of Wisconsin Statistics and another who transferred to UNC Biostatistics. However, they both completed their Masters before starting at their new institution. If you're going to do this, make sure you're getting a Masters out of your current institution. Professors are busy people, so unless they had a very strong investment in you staying, they probably aren't dwelling on it and it's probably not as "awkward" as you think. People Master out of PhD programs all the time. 

Also, I wouldn't recommend trying to transfer in your first year. That definitely looks suspicious. It is safer to do so in the second year if you're going to do it at all. If you've passed your qualifying exams and done reasonably well in your coursework, you can mention those things in your SOP (or have one of your letter writers mention that), so the new program knows that your decision to transfer is not due to academic difficulties but due to evolving research interests, etc. 

[taylorsands]

@Stat Postdoc Soon Faculty  Very helpful advice. Why is getting a masters important? I am pretty sure I will be able to do that even though it is not an option typically set forth by my department.

I have been doing quite well in my courses, but do not have a great advisor to write me a letter at the moment since i have focused on coursework so far and have not really gotten started on research projects. Would it be advisable to just hold off on explaining my desire to transfer until the fall after quals and when I have started some research?

[Stat Assistant Professor]

17 minutes ago, taylorsands said:

@Stat Postdoc Soon Faculty  Very helpful advice. Why is getting a masters important? I am pretty sure I will be able to do that even though it is not an option typically set forth by my department.

I have been doing quite well in my courses, but do not have a great advisor to write me a letter at the moment since i have focused on coursework so far and have not really gotten started on research projects. Would it be advisable to just hold off on explaining my desire to transfer until the fall after quals and when I have started some research?

The Masters is just nice so you have "something to show for" your time at your current institution, but I suppose it isn't essential to have it if you've already been accepted to a new program. ?  The two people I know who transferred from my PhD program had not started doing research under a PhD advisor when they reapplied/left -- they only had coursework. Some research experience might be helpful for your application, but I wouldn't say it's necessary if you've already been doing well in your classes at a reputable program.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Stat Postdoc Soon Faculty

[taylorsands]

Just now, Stat Postdoc Soon Faculty said:

The Masters is just nice so you have "something to show for" your time at your current institution, but I suppose it isn't essential to have it if you've already been accepted to a new program. ?  The two people I know who transferred from my PhD program did not start doing research under a PhD advisor when they reapplied/left. Some research experience might be helpful for your application, but I wouldn't say it's necessary if you've already been doing well in your classes at a reputable program.

Would you know who they asked for letters from your program? It seems difficult to get a strong letter without having started research.

[Stat Assistant Professor]

31 minutes ago, taylorsands said:

Would you know who they asked for letters from your program? It seems difficult to get a strong letter without having started research.

I assume their letters were from professors they took classes with. For PhD admissions, the mathematical ability to handle the courses and "research potential" are the most important things (analogously, if you apply for TT faculty jobs, the potential to meet their tenure standards is what departments will be most concerned with). If you were performing well in the classes in your ~top 10 program, then most programs will probably think you have both. 

[taylorsands]

Thanks.

Do people know if programs (~10 programs) would be open to allowing some transfer credit or would I basically be starting new in terms of coursework requirements if I were to transfer after my masters?

Edited May 19, 2020 by taylorsands

[Stat Assistant Professor]

21 minutes ago, taylorsands said:

Thanks.

Do people know if programs (~10 programs) would be open to allowing some transfer credit or would I basically be starting new in terms of coursework requirements if I were to transfer after my masters?

You can probably find this information on the program websites, or barring that, you can ask the graduate coordinator what their policy is. Many programs like University of Michigan and NCSU allow entering first-year students to take the first-year qualifying exams (based on Casella-Berger and applied regression/design of analysis) upon arrival if they have already earned a Masters degree. And if they pass them, then they do not need to repeat the coursework. I would bet on taking at least one year of courses though, regardless of previous Masters or not. But you might be able to trim off a year of classes. 

[bayessays]

Another advantage of getting a master's degree before switching programs: you never know what's going to happen that might cause you to not finish PhD at the new program - even if you're sure you will, it's nice to have a degree that makes you much more employable in case something happens.

[incomingstatsPhD]

@Stat Postdoc Soon Faculty What if my first semester grades are really great? The issue is that year 2 is essentially all research at my program as quals and coursework are finished. I would rather spend that year at my program of choice.

Edited May 20, 2020 by incomingstatsPhD

[Stat Assistant Professor]

37 minutes ago, incomingstatsPhD said:

@Stat Postdoc Soon Faculty What if my first semester grades are really great? The issue is that year 2 is essentially all research at my program as quals and coursework are finished. I would rather spend that year at my program of choice.

You haven't told us why you are having serious second thoughts about the program you're joining in the fall. Either way, if you decide to transfer, you will need to explain why you are reapplying to a new PhD program in your application, regardless of whether you transfer in your first, second, or third year. And you need to make it clear that you're not doing it because of academic difficulties at your current program but because your needs would be better served at another department. 

Maybe one of the other faculty members on this board who has served on a graduate admissions committee can give their input about how a PhD application from someone who has only been in their PhD program for one semester is perceived. There probably aren't a super high number of such applications, but how do you think a GAC would perceive this? I'm sure it raises a lot of questions, but maybe it's more a matter of how you justify it.

[MathStat]

@incomingstatsPhD, have you tried contacting the program you are regretting turning down? if not, i think you should do it like RIGHT NOW, and just explain your reasons honestly. it's still may, perhaps there is still time to revert this. you'll never know if you don't try. 

[taylorsands]

@incomingstatsPhD I agree with @MathStat. Email the dept you want to attend immediately and explain your thinking. I think depts respect the april 15th deadline in the sense that they will not try to actively recruit students who have committed after that deadline, but if the decision to change is coming from your side, I think depts will be open to it. Especially with the covid situation, things are already in flux (some intl students may not be able to get visas, etc.), so there is a chance they are open it. You will obviously need to tell the school you committed to already, but I do not think they will restrict you from changing your mind.

[StatsG0d]

53 minutes ago, MathStat said:

@incomingstatsPhD, have you tried contacting the program you are regretting turning down? if not, i think you should do it like RIGHT NOW, and just explain your reasons honestly. it's still may, perhaps there is still time to revert this. you'll never know if you don't try. 

If the OP doesn't want to attend a program they already committed to it's not really an issue. I'm sure it's not that rare. The issue is that the OP wants to attend a different program.

The way I see it, there are only four options:

1.) Ask the other programs if they would consider re-admitting you. If so, you can speak with your current program and rescind your offer. I think this is a long shot because funding is already probably pretty tight with COVID and we are over a month past the April 15 deadline. My .02 about this is that it's a very bad look, and I certainly wouldn't do it.

2.) Enter your current program and try to leave after one year. As others have mentioned, this is difficult because it might raise eyebrows--why would a student leave a program without a master's? Moreover, it could be awkward to ask for letters from the current program.

3.) Enter your current program and leave with a master's degree. Sure, you will have wasted a year. But it's not the end of the world and at least you have something to show for it.

4.) Enter your current program and just finish the entire degree there. This is the easiest option.

As I and @Stat Postdoc Soon Faculty have said, it might be helpful if the OP explains why they are having second thoughts. When people transfer programs, it's usually because they could not connect with the culture or they have research interests that do not align with the faculty. I have not heard of anyone wanting to transfer before they arrive. For all you know, you could end up loving the department you attend.

[Stat Assistant Professor]

If someone is going to transfer programs, I would recommend that this be done in the second, or sometimes, third year. There was one student in my PhD program who had spent three years in a pure math PhD program before enrolling in the Statistics PhD program at my alma mater. Transferring right away after one year seems odd and actually is awkward. Reapplying to a new PhD program in the second or third year isn't that awkward or necessarily unusual. Most professors are understanding of this, especially if the student who intends to leave hasn't even started research (then they have no personal stake in the matter). They might only have a personal stake if the student is one of their own advisees who is in like, their fifth year of study and wants to transfer (but then transferring instead of just finishing would be kind of strange). 

[MathStat]

Of course they should first of all think very well which program they really want to attend.

It is possible to experience strong second doubts before starting your program, especially when you had several fantastic options or in circumstances where your decision was constrained by other factors which made it very difficult. furthermore, as horrible as this sounds, i think it is quite common that current students start disclosing more of the "ugly sides" of your future program after you have already committed and it is too late to do anything (as opposed to the visit day, where they only reveal positives). from my experience, these profs understand it is such a difficult and life-changing decision and I think they would truly want you to end up at a place that fits you. I also have the cynical belief they do not care that much about you (just yet) so it's not a big deal if you say you will attend a program, and then back out. I think it would be possible to first discreetly ask the other department whether they would take you back, then plan your next steps accordingly. 

 

edit: sometimes, departments decide to offer you more money right at the last minute, during the weekend before april 15th, after you already committed to a program. this puts you in a very difficult spot and you can imagine that, if you decide to be ethical and stick by your initial choice, you would still experience second doubts creeping in...

Edited May 20, 2020 by MathStat