Ed Policy MPP -- Vanderbilt vs. Duke vs. HGSE Please Help

[maham]

Hi everyone! I have a few weeks before decision time, but I wanted to pick your brains about my top two choices. I want to work in education policy, and I applied to a mix of ed policy M.Ed and MPP programs this cycle. My best options are Vanderbilt Peabody MPP, HGSE EPA, and Duke Sanford MPP. All three will cost around the same price, so I'm not so much concerned about the financial component as I am the fit educationally and career-wise. Cost of living in Durham is significantly lower than in Nashville or Cambridge, so Duke technically wins out in the cost category, but Peabody offers pretty generous assistantships, so they could end up balancing out. HGSE is only a one year program though so it may be slightly less expensive in terms of living costs, but from what I can tell Cambridge is pricey. 

The main difference that I can see is that Peabody/HGSE are education specific degree programs whereas Duke is a general MPP but with incredible ed policy faculty and research centers. Peabody is an incredibly respected and ranked education college, but Duke's MPP program is a top 5 powerhouse as well. Harvard is, well... Harvard. Has anyone else here had this dilemma with education policy? What should I do?? 

I'm currently leaning more toward Duke because I like the flexibility that a general MPP program would offer in terms of career outcomes in the event that the rona slump turns into a full blown 08 level recession. Plus it would provide a more thought-diverse cohort which could prove beneficial in terms of connections. Peabody is still really appealing because from what I've gathered, they encourage and facilitate full-time policy-related employment for their students, and that's a pretty big deal to me since I'm only one year out of undergrad. Duke has very solid experiential components but they aren't full-time paid experience. HGSE is the best program for education policy, but I worry that a one year program wouldn't grant me as much practical experience as the two year programs. 

TL;DR -- I need advice on picking among these programs. Vandy is an education policy exclusive MPP that offers great work experience and Peabody is incredible. Duke is a general MPP with great ed policy faculty and a strong ranking and reputation. HGSE is self explanatory, but hesitant about one year program vs two. Cost is relatively the same -- just need to know thoughts on which is best. Also reposting this from the education and gov affairs forums so I'm hoping to see what you guys have to offer. 

[Natalie1234567890]

So this is my first time looking at grad cafe forums and by chance I saw yours immediately, which seems fortuitous because I'm in a very similar situation! I'm mostly deciding between HGSE (Ed Policy & Analysis) and Brandeis (Heller) MPP and a dual degree at UPenn in both ed policy (Penn GSE) and MPA (Fels). I applied to way too many places so I'm also admitted to NYU Wagner, Columbia TC, UW (Evans and GSE), Chicago MPP, and a few others. It seems like we have a very similar dilemma on deciding between a public policy degree and a specialized education policy degree.

In your case, it sounds like you have no bad options, so no matter what you decide you'll be going somewhere great. Given that you say you're leaning toward duke, I would agree that it would be great to have the general MPP at such a top school that also allows you to specialize in ed (especially since you said it has fantastic ed policy faculty). This is just out of curiosity, but did you get a scholarship at duke? If you didn't, I'm not sure how duke could be a similar price to HGSE, unless you just meant price per year? I have been considering the total price instead of per year. If you're going to pay 50k per year at Duke, I would potentially give a one year program like HGSE more thought because it cuts the price in half, but if you got a scholarship or something feel free to disregard. HGSE is also of course fantastic and super well-respected but it's tricky because an MPP is a broader degree. I don't know as much about Peabody, but I personally didn't apply because I wanted either a 2-year MPP or a 1-year ed policy degree because it didn't seem worth it to me personally to spend two years getting a degree that is more specialized than I preferred, but I know they're a top ed policy school so still a great option.

I'd also love if I could bounce my decision off you. I was thinking I preferred an MPP for having more job options and a generally more respected degree, but then since getting into HGSE I'm tempted because it is ranked the #1 in ed policy and education in general, and I don't want to overlook the benefits of having "Harvard" on my resume - I don't want to make prestige the main deciding factor, but I also want to be a realist about the potential for that to help me get jobs in the future plus I'm sure the faculty and resources are amazing. I actually like the fact that HGSE is one year in some ways because it is less living expenses and one less year spent not making (much) money due to being in grad school, but it is also less time to get the experience and education we came in for.

Penn is a little more expensive but the cool thing is that I would get two full degrees in two years with the dual program. Other than the cost, my main reservation is that the Fels MPA really doesn't have a great reputation at least compared to other ivies/the other schools I'm considering. They also just rearranged their program and then Covid happened so I feel like things won't be well established and organized. Penn GSE seems solid though and it would be cool to have 2 degrees. I'm starting to lean away from this option a bit though.

Brandeis (Heller) is my cheapest option because they gave me a really nice scholarship. It's a two year MPP that seems quite good. They don't have an ed policy concentration but they have "child, youth, and family" and some faculty that focus on education - plus they may have the option to create a custom ed concentration. I've talked to two people who went there and had really positive things to say, one of whom focused on education and told me about profs with interesting research and connections in ed policy. It's also a well-ranked program but not in the same league as HGSE. I'm weighing whether I'd prefer a broader degree at a very good school or a more specialized degree at what is at least in theory the "best" school in that area.

Would love your thoughts and I'd be happy to be a sounding board as you consider your options!

[GradSchoolGrad]

5 hours ago, Natalie1234567890 said:

So this is my first time looking at grad cafe forums and by chance I saw yours immediately, which seems fortuitous because I'm in a very similar situation! I'm mostly deciding between HGSE (Ed Policy & Analysis) and Brandeis (Heller) MPP and a dual degree at UPenn in both ed policy (Penn GSE) and MPA (Fels). I applied to way too many places so I'm also admitted to NYU Wagner, Columbia TC, UW (Evans and GSE), Chicago MPP, and a few others. It seems like we have a very similar dilemma on deciding between a public policy degree and a specialized education policy degree.

In your case, it sounds like you have no bad options, so no matter what you decide you'll be going somewhere great. Given that you say you're leaning toward duke, I would agree that it would be great to have the general MPP at such a top school that also allows you to specialize in ed (especially since you said it has fantastic ed policy faculty). This is just out of curiosity, but did you get a scholarship at duke? If you didn't, I'm not sure how duke could be a similar price to HGSE, unless you just meant price per year? I have been considering the total price instead of per year. If you're going to pay 50k per year at Duke, I would potentially give a one year program like HGSE more thought because it cuts the price in half, but if you got a scholarship or something feel free to disregard. HGSE is also of course fantastic and super well-respected but it's tricky because an MPP is a broader degree. I don't know as much about Peabody, but I personally didn't apply because I wanted either a 2-year MPP or a 1-year ed policy degree because it didn't seem worth it to me personally to spend two years getting a degree that is more specialized than I preferred, but I know they're a top ed policy school so still a great option.

I'd also love if I could bounce my decision off you. I was thinking I preferred an MPP for having more job options and a generally more respected degree, but then since getting into HGSE I'm tempted because it is ranked the #1 in ed policy and education in general, and I don't want to overlook the benefits of having "Harvard" on my resume - I don't want to make prestige the main deciding factor, but I also want to be a realist about the potential for that to help me get jobs in the future plus I'm sure the faculty and resources are amazing. I actually like the fact that HGSE is one year in some ways because it is less living expenses and one less year spent not making (much) money due to being in grad school, but it is also less time to get the experience and education we came in for.

Penn is a little more expensive but the cool thing is that I would get two full degrees in two years with the dual program. Other than the cost, my main reservation is that the Fels MPA really doesn't have a great reputation at least compared to other ivies/the other schools I'm considering. They also just rearranged their program and then Covid happened so I feel like things won't be well established and organized. Penn GSE seems solid though and it would be cool to have 2 degrees. I'm starting to lean away from this option a bit though.

Brandeis (Heller) is my cheapest option because they gave me a really nice scholarship. It's a two year MPP that seems quite good. They don't have an ed policy concentration but they have "child, youth, and family" and some faculty that focus on education - plus they may have the option to create a custom ed concentration. I've talked to two people who went there and had really positive things to say, one of whom focused on education and told me about profs with interesting research and connections in ed policy. It's also a well-ranked program but not in the same league as HGSE. I'm weighing whether I'd prefer a broader degree at a very good school or a more specialized degree at what is at least in theory the "best" school in that area.

Would love your thoughts and I'd be happy to be a sounding board as you consider your options!

Heller is a cash grab by Brandeis (remember grad programs are usually profit centers for Universities). They don't have any real credibility as National program - some regional strengths sure. If you want to stay in New England, then it makes sense. If you have broader ambitions, you might want to consider better options. 

As for Ed Masters (counting Policy Tracts and Vandy's Ed MPP) vs. MPP bottom line is this. If you have any doubt that you don't want to eat, breath, and sleep ed for the of your life, you should do the standard MPP.  If you want a more data intensive education, you should do the standard MPP. Its very easy to go from MPP to ed. Its rather difficult to go from Ed Masters to Non-Ed (yes, even if you went to HGSE). 

[caramelcarrottop]

Here's my two cents.  It's Harvard which despite the cost and cost of living will actually render you an incredible return on investment if you choose to go there.  Though Duke and Vanderbilt are also fantastic schools, but if I were in your shoes it'd be a no brainer for me.  I'd go for Harvard.  It'd open more doors for you than you could imagine...more so than Duke and Vanderbilt imho.  

Edited March 16, 2021 by caramelcarrottop

[Natalie1234567890]

2 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Heller is a cash grab by Brandeis (remember grad programs are usually profit centers for Universities). They don't have any real credibility as National program - some regional strengths sure. If you want to stay in New England, then it makes sense. If you have broader ambitions, you might want to consider better options. 

As for Ed Masters (counting Policy Tracts and Vandy's Ed MPP) vs. MPP bottom line is this. If you have any doubt that you don't want to eat, breath, and sleep ed for the of your life, you should do the standard MPP.  If you want a more data intensive education, you should do the standard MPP. Its very easy to go from MPP to ed. Its rather difficult to go from Ed Masters to Non-Ed (yes, even if you went to HGSE). 

Thanks for the insight. Just wondering what makes you say Heller is more of a cash grab than other grad programs? It does decently in rankings (25 in public policy and 9th for social policy - although the latter may be more of a made-up category). I'm curious how you would compare it to a place like Fels at UPenn or Evans at UWashington or even SUNY Albany in that regard? I also got into some higher ranked programs like UChicago Harris and NYU Wagner, but the costs of those programs are really putting me off plus especially for Chicago the location isn't ideal for me. 

I agree about the MPP vs. Ed issue it's just that in my case HGSE is such a tempting offer compared to my other options. I do mostly want to do ed but I like the idea of having the option to work in other areas at some point in my life... I'm still waiting to hear from the Kennedy school but I don't know if I will get in, plus it's much more expensive to do 2 years at Harvard vs. 1.

[GradSchoolGrad]

27 minutes ago, Natalie1234567890 said:

Thanks for the insight. Just wondering what makes you say Heller is more of a cash grab than other grad programs? It does decently in rankings (25 in public policy and 9th for social policy - although the latter may be more of a made-up category). I'm curious how you would compare it to a place like Fels at UPenn or Evans at UWashington or even SUNY Albany in that regard? I also got into some higher ranked programs like UChicago Harris and NYU Wagner, but the costs of those programs are really putting me off plus especially for Chicago the location isn't ideal for me. 

I agree about the MPP vs. Ed issue it's just that in my case HGSE is such a tempting offer compared to my other options. I do mostly want to do ed but I like the idea of having the option to work in other areas at some point in my life... I'm still waiting to hear from the Kennedy school but I don't know if I will get in, plus it's much more expensive to do 2 years at Harvard vs. 1.

I think you read the rankings wrong:

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-public-affairs-schools/brandeis-university-165015

Its 49th for best Public Affairs

As for 25th for Public Policy Analysis and 9th for Social Policy may at first seem respectable until you realize how this ranking is done. This is essentially a beauty contest among Key Academics/Deans among the Policy School consortium rating each other. Nothing else is involved in these rankings.

So 25th for Public Policy is pretty bad because, Heller is actually a PhD granting institution. That should naturally give it an edge over all schools that don't have PhD programs for Public Policy Analysis. However, there already are two schools (off the top of my head) ahead of it WITHOUT PhD programs - Brown Watson and Georgetown McCourt.

Analysis is broadly applicable that is why it can be a viable measuring stick. Beyond that, when you focus on specific areas (i.e. Social Policy) you have to realize that it is about 2 things. Reputation and faculty notoriety. Heller is a school focused with a reputation on social impact and etc. (you can thank its marketing for part of that) - including its "Social Impact MBA". The other is that Heller has some academically respected academics tied to it in the Social Arena (you can Thank Brandeis at large). A. Marketing is marketing (and yes the Deans at these schools do target marketing to pump up their US News numbers for their website) and B. Its not that hard to add an affiliation to a Professor to give you credibility.

This is what is missing:

a. Career stats (how many people get jobs within X months after graduation ) - if it is there, I couldn't find it

b. Samples of jobs grads are matriculating into by program. I can't find a largely defined roster (if it is there I apologize). 

When schools don't highlight these in some semblance that means there is something to hide OR even worse, they don't invest into finding out.

This is what is present though. Among the key people they highlight in their other programs, I notice one person matriculating to a sub-grad school job (like a straight from undergrad role). Either the person under leveled drastically or career development doesn't get the job market. Either way it is a problem. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by GradSchoolGrad

[GradSchoolGrad]

11 hours ago, caramelcarrottop said:

Here's my two cents.  It's Harvard which despite the cost and cost of living will actually render you an incredible return on investment if you choose to go there.  Though Duke and Vanderbilt are also fantastic schools, but if I were in your shoes it'd be a no brainer for me.  I'd go for Harvard.  It'd open more doors for you than you could imagine...more so than Duke and Vanderbilt imho.  

No doubt Harvard is a great conversation starters at intros, parties, and online dating (not kidding), but in terms of outcomes there is only exceptional value for a Harvard grad  (of any school) if they do a Harvard (or hyper elite - yes there I seen Harvard, Yale, Princeton only job applications for undergrads) only career path, entrepreneurship, or something completely outside of the norm (which don't get me wrong Harvard grads do better at). However - 80 to 90% of Harvard grads (and this applies to HGSE too) filter onto a standard career pathway where they are with Vandy and Duke grads.

Within HGSE, the ROI is comparatively low across the board (based upon sticker price) because at the end of the day it is Education. That being said, if you want to do Ed Tech or Ed Entrepreneurship, HGSE does set up exceptionally well compared to Vandy for Duke. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by GradSchoolGrad

[LadyJuju]

Heller grad here. (Sorry, I always check Grad School Cafe late in the application season.) You've probably already made your decision. I was accepted at better schools but went to Heller. I don't regret the decision because I am debt adverse. However, you may, so I just want to put out there what I think.

Heller upsides: Gives lots of scholarship money. Yes, it may be a cash cow for Brandeis, but what they charge students often pales in comparison to what similar grad schools charge. My impression was that an applicant's potential contribution in the classroom meant more than anything when deciding awards. I knew a lot of people there with sizeable awards, which were appreciated. Small school with excellent access to professors and instructors. More conversation about social equity than at other schools, even before the so-called "Great Racial Awakening", mostly because of the Ford Hall protests. Beautiful, well-designed building. Brandeis has had its problems but is a good institution overall.

Downsides: Pretentious. Disingenuous. Supposedly cares about black lives, but this a former social work school that rebranded because dealing with racism and poverty locally wasn't prestigious enough. Instruction can be lacking - not always, but sometimes. The last great Heller professor was Robert Reich, who left in the mid 2000s, I believe. No legendary policy professors at present except maybe Altman, but he's health care. Of the ones everyone talks about, Anita Hill rarely teaches - once every three years or so at this point. I feel like they keep her around to pull her out of the closet whenever Brandeis has a race issue. She rubber stamps a commission report and then goes back into hiding. (Before anyone jumps on me, I'm a POC.) Her course content is great but she's not a great instructor. Bob Kuttner is a jacka$$. Not as diverse as advertised. Very, very few students of African American decent. The few black students are usually foreign born or first gen. Many of the white wealthy students are two-faced - woke in the classroom and will degrade you in passing elsewhere. Grad student housing is always an issue in Waltham and other Boston area communities. You could be living in a rat hole with a credit score of 800+. Not particularly quantitative, which is increasingly necessary for public policy jobs. This last point is Heller's major downfall IMO.

I agree that Heller's so-called rankings aren't as impressive as in the past but the school has a relatively new dean and he is implementing changes that aren't reflected in the rankings yet.

Dear God, don't get me started about the "Social Impact MBA", which I hear was decided by the several students who replied to a Survey Monkey sent by admissions. I mean, does Heller want its MBA students to be unemployed, especially in a few years when the "social impact" trend is over? The director of admissions is wonderful but many of the associates are inexperienced young people, and it often shows.

Edited May 5, 2021 by LadyJuju
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