How to find Master's programs in Counseling Psychology?

[MaryQofS]

[Apologies in advance for the long-ass post! Brevity has never been one of my strengths]

I am a non-traditional (43-year-old) student who would like to get a PhD in Psychology (preferably at Duquesne since I am very interested in humanist and existential therapies, but I am open to Counseling Psychology programs as well). I have been told that 43 is "too old" to try to get a PhD in Psychology, and that I would be better off just doing an MSW given that I do want to be a clinician eventually, but I have reviewed the coursework for several MSW programs and it just doesn't interest me all that much. I really don't want to go into debt taking coursework that doesn't interest or inspire me. Also, if I ever moved back to my country of origin, I wouldn't be able to work as a therapist even if I'm a LCSW in the US. In my country only graduates of psychology, psychotherapy, or counseling programs are able to work as therapists. I do love the social justice focus of MSW programs but, honestly, I would rather just read books about this in my spare time than spend money on classes about it. I am most excited by the idea of taking classes about counseling theories and pathology. 

My next thought was, of course, that I should do a Master's in Counseling, but my heart hurts a little when I think that these programs mainly train people to be "consumers of research" rather than researchers themselves. Even though my ultimate goal is to be a clinician, I absolutely want to do research, too, so this has led me to explore the idea of doing a PhD in Psychology. (Some of my research interests are behavioural addictions, specifically interpersonal addictions like "love addiction"; family estrangement; and procrastination and perfectionism). 

The issue is that I do not believe that I would currently be competitive enough to get into a funded PhD program because I don't have a background in Psychology or any research experience. I'm sure that I would have a good chance of getting into a non-funded humanistic program, but I'm not willing to get myself into 200K of debt. 

My Bachelor's degree from a major UK university is in foreign languages (I received a "double first" which I suppose is the US equivalent to "summa cum laude") and my Master's degree from a US R1 university is in Comparative Literature. I received a massive scholarship to come to the US for graduate studies (I intended to get a PhD and become an academic), but I crashed and burned for a variety of reasons - mainly mental health-related but also because I realized pretty quickly that academia wasn't for me. My graduate transcripts are pretty poor, and I worry that this makes me look like somebody who doesn't have what it takes for graduate study. 

I am currently training to be a substance abuse counselor, and I will start a full-time job in the addiction field in a few months. I have also been taking lots of Psychology prereqs at my local Community College. I also have experience volunteering as an advocate for survivors of sexual assault. 

I am hoping that completing a Master's degree in Counseling Psychology would make me a much more attractive candidate for Duquesne or Counseling Psychology PhD programs. However, I am unclear on how I can easily find terminal Master's programs in Counseling Psychology without spending months googling. Isn't there a nice, handy list somewhere?  I am also unclear on how one is supposed to know whether a program is good or not. 

Texas Woman's University has a Master's that really appeals to me because of the feminist perspective and because it would also allow me to get licensure as an LPC if I decided not to take the PhD route after all. However, my friend says that it's a "low ranking state school"  and that if I want to get into a PhD program later, I need to think about the name/status of professors who would be writing me letters of recommendation. I'm not sure if she's just being a snob, or if she has a point. 

University of Detroit Mercy has a Master's in Counseling (not Counseling Psychology) that interests me because they claim that students regularly publish in peer-reviewed journals, but I don't know if I would just be wasting my time doing a Counseling Master's if my goal is to apply to a PhD Program. 

I would be grateful for any and all advice! Thank you in advance!

 

 

[fafsaavoidant]

14 hours ago, MaryQofS said:

[Apologies in advance for the long-ass post! Brevity has never been one of my strengths]

I am a non-traditional (43-year-old) student who would like to get a PhD in Psychology (preferably at Duquesne since I am very interested in humanist and existential therapies, but I am open to Counseling Psychology programs as well). I have been told that 43 is "too old" to try to get a PhD in Psychology, and that I would be better off just doing an MSW given that I do want to be a clinician eventually, but I have reviewed the coursework for several MSW programs and it just doesn't interest me all that much. I really don't want to go into debt taking coursework that doesn't interest or inspire me. Also, if I ever moved back to my country of origin, I wouldn't be able to work as a therapist even if I'm a LCSW in the US. In my country only graduates of psychology, psychotherapy, or counseling programs are able to work as therapists. I do love the social justice focus of MSW programs but, honestly, I would rather just read books about this in my spare time than spend money on classes about it. I am most excited by the idea of taking classes about counseling theories and pathology. 

My next thought was, of course, that I should do a Master's in Counseling, but my heart hurts a little when I think that these programs mainly train people to be "consumers of research" rather than researchers themselves. Even though my ultimate goal is to be a clinician, I absolutely want to do research, too, so this has led me to explore the idea of doing a PhD in Psychology. (Some of my research interests are behavioural addictions, specifically interpersonal addictions like "love addiction"; family estrangement; and procrastination and perfectionism). 

The issue is that I do not believe that I would currently be competitive enough to get into a funded PhD program because I don't have a background in Psychology or any research experience. I'm sure that I would have a good chance of getting into a non-funded humanistic program, but I'm not willing to get myself into 200K of debt. 

My Bachelor's degree from a major UK university is in foreign languages (I received a "double first" which I suppose is the US equivalent to "summa cum laude") and my Master's degree from a US R1 university is in Comparative Literature. I received a massive scholarship to come to the US for graduate studies (I intended to get a PhD and become an academic), but I crashed and burned for a variety of reasons - mainly mental health-related but also because I realized pretty quickly that academia wasn't for me. My graduate transcripts are pretty poor, and I worry that this makes me look like somebody who doesn't have what it takes for graduate study. 

I am currently training to be a substance abuse counselor, and I will start a full-time job in the addiction field in a few months. I have also been taking lots of Psychology prereqs at my local Community College. I also have experience volunteering as an advocate for survivors of sexual assault. 

I am hoping that completing a Master's degree in Counseling Psychology would make me a much more attractive candidate for Duquesne or Counseling Psychology PhD programs. However, I am unclear on how I can easily find terminal Master's programs in Counseling Psychology without spending months googling. Isn't there a nice, handy list somewhere?  I am also unclear on how one is supposed to know whether a program is good or not. 

Texas Woman's University has a Master's that really appeals to me because of the feminist perspective and because it would also allow me to get licensure as an LPC if I decided not to take the PhD route after all. However, my friend says that it's a "low ranking state school"  and that if I want to get into a PhD program later, I need to think about the name/status of professors who would be writing me letters of recommendation. I'm not sure if she's just being a snob, or if she has a point. 

University of Detroit Mercy has a Master's in Counseling (not Counseling Psychology) that interests me because they claim that students regularly publish in peer-reviewed journals, but I don't know if I would just be wasting my time doing a Counseling Master's if my goal is to apply to a PhD Program. 

I would be grateful for any and all advice! Thank you in advance!

 

 

I'm by no means an authority on this, but I'm someone who is also trying to pivot from a much more unrelated field. I'm baffled that people would tell you that you're too old. I'm a mid career professional (not yet in my 40s), but when I asked schools about age being something I was concerned about, they repeatedly showed me examples of people in their program who had started in their late 30s or even late 40s (one guy was a retired from his first career!). While I didn't get into my PhD schools this time around, I was an alternate for two different schools, which was both heartbreaking (so close!) and reassuring (that my application wasn't a compete joke, despite not having the same qualifications as others). You're way more qualified than I was, so you've ABSOLUTELY got a shot. 

Your friend has a slight point about name recognition, but I'm a firm believer in applying to schools you'd genuinely like to attend because of the coursework and faculty (regardless of the name), then maybe mixing in a big name or two in there for kicks (don't rely just on rankings!). Frankly, the well-known schools are super competitive when it comes to financial aid, and you'd end up 200K in debt anyway.

You've already got a few schools that you're interested in getting a PhD from, so see if you can perhaps find MA programs that mirror what the first year or two of the phd coursework would be, so you're not wasting time on classes that won't count toward a program. Better yet, apply to MA programs that have PhD programs you'd be interested in. Either way, you'll be able to build relationships that may help you later on. 

Hope some portion of that is helpful to you! 

[MaryQofS]

Thanks for replying, fafsaavoidant. I'm surprised and impressed you weren't scared of by the length of my post, like I assume everybody else was, haha. 

As regards your comment about being baffled that somebody said I was "too old" to begin a PhD, I believe this person's logic was that academic departments want to invest in students who will have many years of research ahead of them so they can bask in the glory of having been responsible for educating such an academic star. Given that I primarily want to be a clinician, I don't see why this should matter, though. I'm glad that you are similar in age to me, and that you don't think I'm too old. That was very reassuring! 

Also, thanks for all of the other advice. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing many institutions with Counseling Psychology PhD programs (at least ones in places I could stand to live in) that also offer terminal Master's degrees: APA Division 17 (Counseling Psychology) has a list of all APA-accredited Counseling Psychology doctoral programs. I haven't done rigorous research into this, so I may find more programs when I do. 

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm really interested in attending Duquesne's Clinical Psychology PhD program but it's really hard to get into since it is, to the best of my knowledge, the only funded APA-accredited humanistic program in the US. Seattle University, the University of Dallas (both private and pricey) and the University of West Georgia (a cheap state school that might even offer funding) have Master's programs that would likely help me get into Duquesne, but if I didn't get in, I'd be stuck with a Master's degree focused on existential/humanistic psychology that other more conventional universities probably wouldn't give a rat's ass about. 

Basically, I'm just terrified of being a broke, middle-aged woman with a useless Master's degree in Psychology that doesn't even lead to LPC licensure and dying alone, and then being eaten by my cats. ?

Good luck with your PhD dreams. What are your plans going forwards? Are you going to hold off for another year and re-apply or have you also applied to Master's programs?

Edited April 28, 2021 by MaryQofS

[PsyDuck90]

On 4/27/2021 at 12:46 AM, MaryQofS said:

 I am also unclear on how one is supposed to know whether a program is good or not. 

Texas Woman's University has a Master's that really appeals to me because of the feminist perspective and because it would also allow me to get licensure as an LPC if I decided not to take the PhD route after all. However, my friend says that it's a "low ranking state school"  and that if I want to get into a PhD program later, I need to think about the name/status of professors who would be writing me letters of recommendation. I'm not sure if she's just being a snob, or if she has a point. 

University of Detroit Mercy has a Master's in Counseling (not Counseling Psychology) that interests me because they claim that students regularly publish in peer-reviewed journals, but I don't know if I would just be wasting my time doing a Counseling Master's if my goal is to apply to a PhD Program. 

I would be grateful for any and all advice! Thank you in advance!

 

 

To address this part, state schools are actually where most of the mental health training happens. Going to Texas Women's University for a master's will not be looked down on. The psych field isn't like going for an MBA where it's ivy league or bust. Those national rankings we normally think about when considering undergrad degree programs and the like basically go out the window. As long as you can get some solid research experience, you should be in a good place. Just note that PhD programs in clinical/counseling psychology are very competitive, and most successful applicants have a good research fit with their mentor and also several posters and maybe a publication or 2 on their CV when they apply, so make sure that whatever master's you choose allows for ample research experience and the ability to present your work.

Letters of recommendation do have a bit more weight when the person you're working with knows the person you're applying to work for, so that is something to keep in mind

[SocDevMum]

On 4/27/2021 at 12:46 AM, MaryQofS said:

I am a non-traditional (43-year-old) student

Late to the party here, but uhm... I'm a 43 year old PhD student  And my PI was thrilled to take on a mature student who "knew what they wanted and what drove them".  She views my life experience and age as a huge bonus, and quite frankly, now that I am a year in, so do I. My younger cohort members often struggle with some skills and concepts, not because they aren't each brilliant in their own way, but because they just don't have the real-world experience to really get some things. 

So, yeah, tell whoever that was to stuff it.  They clearly have no idea what they are talking about.  Go for whatever program you want!

[PsychCrab]

I just joined this site, found your post, and felt so relieved and glad to be here. Count me as another 40-something (44) hoping to re-enter grad school to become a clinical psychologist. I could have written so much of what you said, about knowing you want to focus more on clinical work but wanting to gain research experience, not wanting to pursue an MSW because it's psychology that is your passion but appreciating the social justice aspect of MSW training, being afraid of being "too old." 

I'm not as far along in my search as you are and I'm not sure of the best sources to look for programs. I want excellent clinical training as well as training in research. I want to be fully funded because I NEED to be in order to swing a doctorate financially. I want a program that doesn't treat psychology as a branch of medicine. And most of all, I want to be in a program that's supportive, inclusive, with mentors who genuinely enjoy nurturing graduate students and feel a sense of responsibility in seeing them succeed. As far as I know, there's no guide that relays subjective information like this. 

Anyway, I'm so glad to know I'm not alone and crazy in considering that I could return to grad school for a Ph.D. in my forties! For several years I'd told myself that ship had sailed, but maybe due to the pandemic, I started to see my possibilities a little differently.  

Good luck and maybe we can find ways on here to support each other in our journeys. 

[SocDevMum]

2 hours ago, PsychCrab said:

I want to be in a program that's supportive, inclusive, with mentors who genuinely enjoy nurturing graduate students and feel a sense of responsibility in seeing them succeed. As far as I know, there's no guide that relays subjective information like this. 

Best way to find this out, is to talk to the graduate students currently in the program, or recently graduated from the program. Grad students are the best kept secret when it comes to getting information about PIs and programs, I swear. 

[PsychCrab]

4 hours ago, SocDevMum said:

Best way to find this out, is to talk to the graduate students currently in the program, or recently graduated from the program. Grad students are the best kept secret when it comes to getting information about PIs and programs, I swear. 

What's the best way to reach out to grad students? Granted the past year hasn't been normal times, but I reached out to grad students via email at a program near me, and only one replied and then flaked on our Zoom meeting. I was thinking of taking to the various Psych hashtags on Twitter and asking students to DM me if they didn't feel comfortable posting on a public forum. I'm not sure *I'm* comfortable announcing my intent to pursue a Ph.D. for all to see. Would this site be good for reaching out to current grad students in programs I'm curious about? (I just started using the site.)

[SocDevMum]

9 hours ago, PsychCrab said:

What's the best way to reach out to grad students?

This past year has been a mess, hasn't it? Emailing students directly usually gives some response, as long as your email is polite and not a hot mess   Our inboxes fill up almost as fast as faculty, what with classes, ongoing projects, assistantships, internships or teaching classes of our own, so I would say make sure your emails are brief, concise but not demanding, and convey your seriousness about finding a program that is a good fit. The end of the semester is not optimal, just because we are all finishing up finals, prepping for defenses or Comps at those times, but otherwise most students are willing to communicate at least briefly. Summer can be a great time, as we are all still working on things but may have more flexibility of time. If grad students from a certain program are consistently not willing to answer questions or flake out, I would take that as a big red flag - grad school is a team sport, are those the kinds of people you want on your team?

Twitter can be a great resource, and I imagine this site could as well. Maybe check in the more general forums as well as here in the Psych specific one?