Has your seminary changed you?

[Teddy Bear]

We are continually told that people who go to seminary end up losing their faith. Or that after being at a particular seminary the newly minted MDiv no longer feels confident enough to sign their home denominations statement of faith.

Are these kinds of comments valid? Are there just people who are psychologically more easily influenced/less critical of what they are studying so much so that they lose belief in the particular denomination they wanted to serve upon graduating?

If these stories are indeed true, what advice can you offer to someone considering the seminary?

[xypathos]

1 hour ago, Teddy Bear said:

We are continually told that people who go to seminary end up losing their faith. Or that after being at a particular seminary the newly minted MDiv no longer feels confident enough to sign their home denominations statement of faith.

If you go to seminary/divinity school and your faith isn't rattled, you did it wrong. That said, if your faith is destroyed, that's a different thing, though maybe not bad - context matters. Part of school, living, and just being a human being is that you grow and change. Yes, seminary made me stop and think more about things like the Nicene Creed, but I think that's a good thing. It also helped me understand that I valued some things more than others, which is also good.

Vandy was good about shaking up people's faiths and challenging them to think bigger and better. That said, they were really bad with the rebuilding that came afterward. In fact, the dean at the time was even emphatic in saying that's not their job. I did hate that part of VDS while there and I disagreed with it. I disagree with it a little less, because I better recognize that rebuilding is 1) personal work I need to do, 2) takes time, and 3) sometimes it must be a different community than the one that inflicted the trauma.

That's part of the tension between seminary/divinity schools and religious studies in general. The classroom (and student-teacher relationships) have the capacity for beautiful life-building but also profound trauma. If you're going to be a teacher within this field, part of you needs to be pastoral. You certainly don't need to be confessional, you could very easily be atheistic and an amazing teacher, but you have to carry the weight well that your words and how you use them can kill someone's soul.

Edited March 30, 2023 by xypathos

[Teddy Bear]

18 minutes ago, xypathos said:

Vandy was good about shaking up people's faiths and challenging them to think bigger and better. That said, they were really bad with the rebuilding that came afterward. The dean at the time was even emphatic in saying that's not their job. I did hate that part of VDS while there and I disagreed with it. I disagree with it a little less, because I better recognize that rebuilding is 1) personal work I need to do, 2) takes time, and 3) sometimes it must be a different community than the one that inflicted the trauma.

 

Thank you for replying. I don't know whether to feel challenged by your answer or afraid! I "don't want to lose my Jesus".

If context matters (and I'm sure it does) is it more pronounced in divinity schools [exit with no faith] or confessional schools [exit with an unquestioned faith where growth hasn't happened]? Maybe that's what you mean by the "tension between seminary/divinity schools and religious studies".

I've been talking to student advisors at a theological seminary in my state about their MDiv program. Choosing a school is one I never expected to be so difficult. The program is well structured (90 hrs including languages and fieldwork), has a staff of pastor-theologians (they are accountable for what they research), the school is close enough to home such that I won't have to uproot my family (and put anyone through job searches and school changes just before the country goes into recession), they're offering me a full scholarship. And I want to study at a school that believes in the three I's of scripture (infallible, inerrant, inspired), and most times that comes in a "conservative" packing. 

BUT there are things about their doctrinal statement that scare me: a belief in total depravity, dispensationalism, and pretrib. I understand these are increasingly common in nondenom.churches but as someone coming from a classical protestant background (Episcopalian), who is, after much soul-searching, at home in my denomination, I'm afraid that the "profound trauma" it will leave me with, will affect my ability to be effective in my denomination. Of course, the school says it has many denominations enrolled and that as long as I can justify my positions, they will be respected.

So the Pros:
close to home;
well-structured curriculum;
biblical inerrancy;
professors who both research and pastor themselves; and
scholarship funding

The Cons:
concerns over imbibing doctrine I don't want.

Maybe it's not possible to find the perfect seminary. Perhaps trade-offs have to be made. Maybe exposure to another world view will help solidify my own? - IDK???

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sacklunch]

I have a somewhat different experience, but broadly speaking I fully support xypathos's words. Coming from the religious studies side of things and having no "religion" to speak of myself (some days agnostic, on my best days atheistic), I think there are more shared between these fields (religious studies and seminary) than not, within and outside the classroom. Nearly all religious studies scholars studying Judaism and Christian are themselves part of the tradition they study and many of them have some kind of seminary/divinity degree (e.g. I have an MTS and PhD in Religion). So it is common in my experience to find this "pastoral" element within religious studies classrooms. Perhaps it shouldn't be present, but it often is. Of course it is considered required for seminary, which creates a different dynamic between student/teacher. 

To the other point, my experience is that nearly everyone who completes an MDiv stays within the Christian tradition. It's very rare for people to leave, though many swap one tradition for another (e.g. classic move going from Protestant to Eastern Orthodox). Most people in seminary are not even open to the possibility of leaving Christianity entirely, which is strange I think, only in that such an attitude is rarely found in other disciplines (economics?). It's an exclusive environment designed, I think, to let you fall, get back up again, over and over; but by design you're rarely, if ever encouraged to consider whether or not you should abandon your faith. Some people on here might say they have/did consider the possibility, but having been around divinity students for over a decade now and teaching some in that environment I just don't think most ever truly consider leaving. While I do think this is problematic situated within the methodologies/theories/practices as found in graduate education at most universities, I understand the reasons. 

[Teddy Bear]

12 hours ago, sacklunch said:

 It's an exclusive environment designed, I think, to let you fall, get back up again, over and over... While I do think this is pproblematic situated within the methodologies/theories/practices as found in graduate education at most universities, I understand the reasons. 

Then a related question arises about the utility of accreditation of seminaries/divinity schools. Some seminaries tend to be echo chambers simply reinforcing (especially the conservative ones) the students already held beliefs without concern for what others are writing. Others subject their curriculum to such critical analysis that they can cause what xypathos says is "profound trauma" that can lead to "killing one's soul".

Yet both types of institutions are accredited (often by the same regulator)! If outcomes are so vastly different then accreditation means simply a useless expense passed on in student tuition fees.

[Thulcandran]

I agree with @xypathos about seminary experience- if you don't get your cage rattled, you're doing it wrong. 

I think seminaries will often tell you in coded terms what they are really about just via their websites. A quick search shows that TEDS is 'entrusted with the gospel...the world desperately needs the gospel and a boldly evangelical training ground." (from the front page of their website.) On a different note, Princeton Seminary 'provides a residential community of worship and learning where a sense of calling is tested and defined, where Scripture and the Christian tradition are appropriated critically, where faith and intellect mature [it goes on]..." (from the about section of their website.) You can determine a lot about a place just by reading between the lines. (Those are just the first two schools that came to mind.)

For whatever it's worth, I came from an evangelical background and went to a mainline seminary, and it was often hard. My faith changed a lot, but I think it was for the better. In that process, I moved from the evangelical church to a pretty progressive mainline church, for a bunch of reasons. I'm really thankful for the experience and wouldn't change it if I could. I look back on my Mdiv with a ton on fondness. I agree again with xypathos that a big part of that experience (for me) was learning to think better and more deeply.  However, I do remember something very vividly from orientation- a student counselor remarked to our group that the thing students tended to struggle with most was going home and feeling different from their original faith context- in other words, that their faith had changed and that felt really hard. I think that rings true and people should be frank about that to potential applicants. 

A sibling of mine went to an evangelical seminary and we've often enjoyed comparing notes on our experiences. He has said that his school was pretty up front about trying to train mostly pastors- the classes were very laid out, the framing in most classes was about future congregational ministry, etc. My school was not like that at all- languages not required, lots of people there trying to do academic theology, people interested in doing all sorts of stuff after graduation. I think one way to think about finding the right environment for you depends not only on your theological framework but also how much structure you think you'll need to succeed in a Mdiv. Is it helpful to have mostly laid out, with a large majority of people studying toward the same goals? Or being in a space with a variety of traditions, perspectives, and outcomes? Knowing what you need to succeed pedagogically (along with theology) might go a long way toward helping you find your right environment. 

[Teddy Bear]

13 hours ago, Thulcandran said:

 think one way to think about finding the right environment for you depends not only on your theological framework but also on how much structure you think you'll need to succeed in a Mdiv. Is it helpful to have mostly laid out, with a large majority of people studying toward the same goals? Or being in a space with a variety of traditions, perspectives, and outcomes? Knowing what you need to succeed pedagogically (along with theology) might go a long way toward helping you find your right environment. 

A friend went off to seminary and came out with a MDiv and his faith was very much intact. He ascribes this to the fact that classes were fast-paced. You had to read the prescribed text and readings and there wasn't much time for anything else. He kept a list of the books he'd like to read once he graduated. Research papers generally came after the prescribed reading and so any research was filtered through the material already covered which was quite orthodox. So there was little time to read heretical theologians' musings that Paul and Timothy were homosexual lovers etc. Maybe they were, he would read that kind of thing after he graduated... lol

[xypathos]

On 3/30/2023 at 5:54 PM, Teddy Bear said:

If context matters (and I'm sure it does) is it more pronounced in divinity schools [exit with no faith] or confessional schools [exit with an unquestioned faith where growth hasn't happened]? Maybe that's what you mean by the "tension between seminary/divinity schools and religious studies".

I agree with @sacklunch in that very few seem to leave the Christian faith. Denomination hopping definitely happens!

Per the tension - divinity schools and seminaries generally start from the basis that "God exists." If they belong to a denomination/movement they might get more specific. Religious Studies departments are a bit more historical and cultural analysis, so you're looking at this "Other" and talking about what they believe/do (over simplication).

I entered VDS intending to be an academic (go get a PhD and be a professor) but my MDiv pushed me to ordination with The Episcopal Church. I did eventually go get a PhD and teach some, but it's church work that pays the bills.