Chances at MSU, Boston, Claremont, Toronto, etc.

[Zoon Politikon]

I'm a senior preparing to send out applications to graduate programs in political science. I'm particularly interested in schools with good political theory/history of political thought concentrations. Does anyone know about or have any experience with political theory at Toronto in particular? How selective is the program? Are american applicants at an advantage or disadvantage in the admissions process?

I attend St. John's College and will graduate with a double major in philosophy and history of math and science, and a double minor in comparative literature and classics. I currently have a 3.76 (considerably higher if you scrap math and science classes). I'm close with several professors who should be able to write good recs, and I'm using as my writing sample a paper on Plato's Apology that won an award last spring. Also, I've been a part of a political philosophy study group with two professors for the last three years. Don't know that it matters for theory, but I also have a number of practical political internships under my belt. Although they aren't required at toronto, I just took my GRE's and received a 670 on the verbal and a 560 (embarrassingly poor, I know) on the quantitative. How much of a liability will the quantitative score be for someone who is solely interested in theory?

I'm also considering the programs at Boston College, Michigan State, University of North Texas and at the Claremont Graduate University. I'll probably be applying mostly to MA programs. Is an acceptance to any of these places plausible? Thanks in advance for the feedback!

[Zoon Politikon]

Any thoughts?

[polisciphd]

If you don't mind me asking, why do you want to study, or perhaps more importantly what do you intend to do with a MA in political theory?

[Zoon Politikon]

I plan on using the MA as a stepping stone to the PhD. I'm also applying to a couple of direct-entry PhD programs. I'm just not sure if I'll get accepted to any of them at this point. I wouldn't mind taking a few years off after getting the masters and adjuncting or working odd jobs, etc. Right now, I'm mostly interested in furthering my education.

[polisciphd]

In most cases, getting the MA doesn't help you get into ph.d. programs unless your undergrad record is not sufficient to get you there on its own. I would be more concerned about deciding whether a career in academia is something you want. if yes, then forget the MA, and apply for the ph.d. If not, then an MA in political theory is probably not going to help you outside of academia. If the answer is undecided, then don't do either. Instead, take some time off and reevaluate this time next year. That way you wouldn't have wasted your time and money on something that may not be any added benefit, regardless of the career path.

[beebly]

Acceptance into BC's MA is plausible--many St. John's students end up there, as I'm sure you know. Some are then picked up for the PhD program, which is a good opportunity. You should get in touch with these people ASAP to discuss the program with them. All the other places you list will look kindly on your background but there is no reason to apply to the MA. Just apply to the PhD and they will automatically defer you to the MA if they don't accept you for the PhD, so you won't loose out on that opportunity, if you believe that an unfunded MA is an opportunity (this applies to BC as well). Toronto might be a stretch given your unconventional training and non-stellar GREs, but it would depend on who is writing your recs and what they say about you. There is no disadvantage for American applicants as far as I know, which admittedly is not all that far.

Also, allow me to offer the following unsolicited advice: you really focus on your applications to BC and Toronto out of this list. MSU, CGU, and UNT are all great places, but they may not be great assets on the job market. I would also suggest that you add Notre Dame and UT-Austin to your list--these are much stronger programs for your kind of thing in terms of resources, faculty, and other students. Finally, don't pay for an MA. It's not worth it, no matter how much you love Plato.

[Zoon Politikon]

Thanks for the help. At this point allow me to out myself as the amateur that I am. You suggested that I contact BC about the program. Would the goal of this move be simply to make myself known to them? What information should I be groping for? I was actually under the impression that Toronto rarely accepted students directly into the PhD program (thought it was customary in Canada to get the MA first). I also hadn't realized that it was common practice everywhere to automatically consider unsuccessful PhD applicants for the MA program.

I had been planning on applying to Notre Dame and UT Austin but, considering my GRE's, thought it ultimately might be a waste of time. What I haven't yet mentioned is that I am also applying to the PhD program in philosophy at Tulane (not sure if anyone on this forum knows much about this program). BC, Toronto, and Tulane are the schools that I do intend to really aim for. Should probably also mention that one of my recommenders has his PhD from BC and taught for a time at Toronto. Also, my thesis advisor has his PhD from Tulane and has offered to shoot off a personal note on my behalf to the chair of that department. Do these sorts of connections count for much?

Sorry for the sinuous response.

[Zoon Politikon]

Oh, and Toronto doesn't require GRE's.

[eklavya]

i come from science background, and therefore might be considered an outcast in this sub-forum. but hear me out, my experience (in MS) might be of some use.

do your masters if:

a. you get sufficient funding. masters without funding is undesirable, especially if your ultimate goal is to go for a phd

b. your undergrad record was so-so. masters is an awesome platform to gain more research experience, exposure to sub-branches of your field and to mature intellectually.

c. your ultimate goal is academia. having a masters helps a lot, as your recruiting institute/university often looks for your 'linear' growth and advancement at each step.

don't do it if:

a. none of the above are true

b. you simply want to occupy some time (aka result of unemployment)

that all said, doing a masters is a terrific idea. if you have all resources to do it, go for it regardless of your future major and career path. since you will most likely be in your field of choice for the remainder of your life, an extra 2 years of school will benefit you in the long run.

[beebly]

Thanks for the help. At this point allow me to out myself as the amateur that I am. You suggested that I contact BC about the program. Would the goal of this move be simply to make myself known to them? What information should I be groping for? I was actually under the impression that Toronto rarely accepted students directly into the PhD program (thought it was customary in Canada to get the MA first). I also hadn't realized that it was common practice everywhere to automatically consider unsuccessful PhD applicants for the MA program.

I had been planning on applying to Notre Dame and UT Austin but, considering my GRE's, thought it ultimately might be a waste of time. What I haven't yet mentioned is that I am also applying to the PhD program in philosophy at Tulane (not sure if anyone on this forum knows much about this program). BC, Toronto, and Tulane are the schools that I do intend to really aim for. Should probably also mention that one of my recommenders has his PhD from BC and taught for a time at Toronto. Also, my thesis advisor has his PhD from Tulane and has offered to shoot off a personal note on my behalf to the chair of that department. Do these sorts of connections count for much?

Sorry for the sinuous response.

No, I meant get in touch with the St. John's alumni currently at BC. They will have good and specific advice for you. Many people also recommend getting touch with faculty you would like to work with, but I haven't found that this strategy actually helps anyone get in, and moreover, it's awkward for you and sometimes annoying for the faculty on the receiving end. I would recommend getting in touch with faculty only if you have very specific, otherwise unanswerable questions for them.

I don't know anything about philosophy at Tulane, sorry. But yes, personal connections between professors can help, or at least can't hurt. As for Toronto, you're right about no direct PhD admission. That's fine. But everywhere else, aim higher than the MA. And I wouldn't write off UT or ND; they (especially ND) are friendly to your background and may excuse your GREs.

Also, you might consider re-taking your GREs if you have time.

[alexisde]

I'm a senior preparing to send out applications to graduate programs in political science. I'm particularly interested in schools with good political theory/history of political thought concentrations. Does anyone know about or have any experience with political theory at Toronto in particular? How selective is the program? Are american applicants at an advantage or disadvantage in the admissions process?

I attend St. John's College and will graduate with a double major in philosophy and history of math and science, and a double minor in comparative literature and classics. I currently have a 3.76 (considerably higher if you scrap math and science classes). I'm close with several professors who should be able to write good recs, and I'm using as my writing sample a paper on Plato's Apology that won an award last spring. Also, I've been a part of a political philosophy study group with two professors for the last three years. Don't know that it matters for theory, but I also have a number of practical political internships under my belt. Although they aren't required at toronto, I just took my GRE's and received a 670 on the verbal and a 560 (embarrassingly poor, I know) on the quantitative. How much of a liability will the quantitative score be for someone who is solely interested in theory?

I'm also considering the programs at Boston College, Michigan State, University of North Texas and at the Claremont Graduate University. I'll probably be applying mostly to MA programs. Is an acceptance to any of these places plausible? Thanks in advance for the feedback!

If you don't mind my asking, have you heard from MSU and Claremont yet? I saw your post on the BC thread-- I applied for the PhD program too, but was only offered a spot in the MA program.

[paleostraussian]

I would highly recommend Baylor and the University of Dallas. I understand they've admitted a number of Johnnies in the past couple years and that they really like it there. Good to know that such an excellent old program may be experiencing a comeback. They have a couple of really fantastic professors, and a terrific curriculum. Baylor's a great up and coming program, run by the great Mary Nichols.

[Zoon Politikon]

Alexisde- I received an email just last Thursday from Claremont notifying me that I had been accepted into the PhD program. I ended up tweaking my list of schools since I started this thread last fall--I ended up not applying to MSU or UNT and, instead, applied to Notre Dame (still haven't heard a word). Do you think you might consider the MA at BC? It really is tempting considering the excellent theory faculty.

Paleo- Mary Nichols really is great and, in retrospect, I probably should have shot an application off to Baylor. I've had a few professors who studied under her at Fordham and CUA. All speak very highly of her. I hear great things about Jonathan Culp at Dallas, although Thomas West is not my favorite.

Where else did both of you apply? Any luck?

[Count de Monet]

nooooo!! Straussians everywhere!!! Run away!!!!!!!

[alexisde]

Alexisde- I received an email just last Thursday from Claremont notifying me that I had been accepted into the PhD program. I ended up tweaking my list of schools since I started this thread last fall--I ended up not applying to MSU or UNT and, instead, applied to Notre Dame (still haven't heard a word). Do you think you might consider the MA at BC? It really is tempting considering the excellent theory faculty.

Where else did both of you apply? Any luck?

Congrats on your great news from CGU. As for BC, I'm not going to accept their MA offer. I already have a fully funded PhD offer on the table and I'm nearly done with a Masters degree already (government). But you're right- BC theory is outstanding, and if I didn't already have a MA on the way, it would be a more tempting prospect.

As for my applications: I applied to the PhD programs at MSU, BC, UDallas, Claremont, Catholic, and Georgetown. I considered Baylor, but decided living in Waco, TX for five years wasn't for me. I've heard from MSU (accepted with funding), BC (as previously discussed), and I'm still waiting on the rest. I had to retake the GREs, so my applications were not considered complete until a few weeks ago.

What are your thoughts on the BC MA? Claremont?

[paleostraussian]

Paleo- Mary Nichols really is great and, in retrospect, I probably should have shot an application off to Baylor. I've had a few professors who studied under her at Fordham and CUA. All speak very highly of her. I hear great things about Jonathan Culp at Dallas, although Thomas West is not my favorite.

Where else did both of you apply? Any luck?

Took a class with Culp in undergrad - not my cup of tea. I respect West as a teacher, but can't say I agree with him. Leo Paul de Alvarez was my mentor, so I'm a bit of a fan.

Still waiting to hear back from Baylor and Notre Dame, I understand they've sent out their first round so I'm hoping for good luck in the second.

[paleostraussian]

nooooo!! Straussians everywhere!!! Run away!!!!!!!

You're the one who applied to Claremont!

[Zoon Politikon]

Alexisde-Congratulations to you on Michigan State! It sounds like a great program. At this point, I'm leaning towards getting the MA at BC. Apparently I can transfer most of those credits to the PhD program at Claremont if I decide to matriculate there in a couple of years. I got some funding at CGU but not enough to make it an unambiguously good move. I'm still waiting on Notre Dame (long shot), Toronto (not the most desirable), and Tulane which is the only philosophy program that I applied to and, owing to Ronna Burger and Richard Velkley, it's a possibility that I'm really holding out hope for.

Where are you getting your MA? Having nearly finished, what are your thoughts about these sorts of MA programs in general? Has it been worthwhile? Thanks and good luck!

[Count de Monet]

Alexisde-Congratulations to you on Michigan State! It sounds like a great program. At this point, I'm leaning towards getting the MA at BC. Apparently I can transfer most of those credits to the PhD program at Claremont if I decide to matriculate there in a couple of years. I got some funding at CGU but not enough to make it an unambiguously good move. I'm still waiting on Notre Dame (long shot), Toronto (not the most desirable), and Tulane which is the only philosophy program that I applied to and, owing to Ronna Burger and Richard Velkley, it's a possibility that I'm really holding out hope for.

Where are you getting your MA? Having nearly finished, what are your thoughts about these sorts of MA programs in general? Has it been worthwhile? Thanks and good luck!

What's wrong with Toronto? Cliff Orwin is there and despite the Poli-Sci department having gone from one dominated by Bloom-Orwin-Pangle to one that is much more diverse he still is the big fish there. I did my MA there and the students in the department are wonderful, as are the professors. I took a class with Orwin, he's brilliant (even though I didn't agree with everything he said), and a wonderfully kind person who is always there for students when they need him.

[Zoon Politikon]

Oh no, you're completely right. Orwin is really an impressive guy. I had heard a rumor that he is retiring. Not true?

[Count de Monet]

Oh no, you're completely right. Orwin is really an impressive guy. I had heard a rumor that he is retiring. Not true?

He's not that old...I don't know if he's thinking of retiring but I know last year there was a good group of new PhDs who came in to work with him. Also I know people doing their PhD with him...so I'd assume he wouldn't retire while he still has students...but I don't have any real insider info.

[athenianstranger]

I heard from a few grad students at Toronto that Orwin has altered his research focus over the past few years. He now does Old Testament and Jewish thought almost exclusively (Jerusalem over Athens for my Straussian friends out there).

[Zahar Berkut]

I met Orwin once, and he's as personable as he is talented. One of the concerns raised by a friend considering applying for theory at Toronto is that too much would depend on just working with him, and he seems to be teaching a lighter load now. No idea about the retirement rumor, but as a rule there should be at least two professors in a department you'd like to study with, or at least others you'd be happy to work with should any shake-up's happen in the future. Fortune is a river, you know.

Oh no, you're completely right. Orwin is really an impressive guy. I had heard a rumor that he is retiring. Not true?

[Count de Monet]

I heard from a few grad students at Toronto that Orwin has altered his research focus over the past few years. He now does Old Testament and Jewish thought almost exclusively (Jerusalem over Athens for my Straussian friends out there).

He taught a course last year on the politics of the book of Genesis, which I took. He also told me he wrote an article about the Book of Esther, so he is doing work on religion. I know he has a book coming out on Rousseau which he spoke of so I don't know if it's a full switch or he's simply doing a few different things because he has the opportunity to.

[Zoon Politikon]

So Orwin is beginning to occupy Kenneth Green's niche? Or, does Green do much research outside of Jewish thought?