Research experience from a doctoral program vs an MSW or MHC program

[8215S]

Would the research experience you'd gain from the first two years of a school psychology PsyD program be better and more credible than an MSW or MHC program? If you decided to transfer to a clinical psychology PhD program, what would be valued more since graduate schools for the most part prefer that students don't have a masters but extensive research experience?

[SoundofSilence]

Hi there,

The most important aspect is the quality of the research experience. However, given that MSW and MHC are more applied degrees, they offer fewer opportunities and allocate less time for independent research. Depending on the PsyD program, it might be a similar situation. 

The thing is, you generally cannot "transfer into" a PhD program; some may accept a couple of courses but usually you would have to start from the very beginning. 

So if you want to gain admission into a decent PhD program, you do need research experience and you can get that through volunteering or (better yet) working in a research lab (and getting paid for your work). The master's/PsyD route would not be the best. 

On the other hand, if you want to work clinically as a therapist, a master's level degree could be the fastest way to get there. I would not recommend starting a PsyD and leaving after two years - that does not allow you to practice and it's just wasted time and money at that point. 

[8215S]

@SoundofSilence Hey there! For me, I'm not able to take a gap year and my only choices are to do either the MHC, MSW, or PsyD. After two years with the PsyD in School Psychology I'd have my masters to practice as a school counselor. As much as I'd want to work at a research lab for two years and then pursue my PhD I unfortunately don't have that option. I was told that doctoral programs actually prefer not to pick students with masters degrees. My plan is that I can choose the School Psychology PsyD program which does have a strong clinical component to it, but for whatever reason if I end up not liking school psychology then I can use the research I'd gain from that doctoral program which would be more valued than any MSW or MHC program, to transfer into a clinical psychology PhD program, where I may need to start from the beginning. I don't have to best options but considering this situation whaat do you think is the best of the two? What does anyone else also think?

[SoundofSilence]

15 hours ago, 8215S said:

@SoundofSilence Hey there! For me, I'm not able to take a gap year and my only choices are to do either the MHC, MSW, or PsyD. After two years with the PsyD in School Psychology I'd have my masters to practice as a school counselor. As much as I'd want to work at a research lab for two years and then pursue my PhD I unfortunately don't have that option. I was told that doctoral programs actually prefer not to pick students with masters degrees. My plan is that I can choose the School Psychology PsyD program which does have a strong clinical component to it, but for whatever reason if I end up not liking school psychology then I can use the research I'd gain from that doctoral program which would be more valued than any MSW or MHC program, to transfer into a clinical psychology PhD program, where I may need to start from the beginning. I don't have to best options but considering this situation whaat do you think is the best of the two? What does anyone else also think?

I do not know your personal circumstances around not being able to take a "gap year", but I do hope you are also considering the financial implications of each path.

I doubt that the first two years of a PsyD would be much different compared to the master's - you would probably be very busy with lots of courses and practicum, so the time for research is limited. Most students in PsyDs focus on their research later on in the program. I would also keep in mind how that would look to a future admissions committee - they will probably wonder why you matriculated in a doctoral level program and then left. 

Some doctoral programs prefer to train students from the beginning, but I have met many (including me) with outside master's that got an offer. What I think is rarer is someone from a previous doctoral level program (PsyD or PhD) applying for admission. 

If you really want to bolster your research CV, and you can't work during that time, an experimental master's is probably the simplest way. Trying to gain useful experience while you are training in an intensive clinical program is going to be an uphill battle. You can contact some of the faculty at the programs that interest you and inquire about the possibility of being involved in research. That might give you a better sense. But keep in mind it might be difficult to do it all, and you may have to choose one path (clinical training or gaining enough research experience). 

[8215S]

@SoundofSilence I did speak to one of the faculty at the School Psychology PsyD program who seemed a little more transparent compared to the rest and many others I've spoken to at different schools. I did bring up the same concern about leaving a doctoral program to go to another one but he suggested that sometimes people's interests change and that's fine. But he emphasized that whatever research I can do in a doctoral program would hold more value than a masters. It is true that I would need to be doing research on the side of my classes and part-time job. I'll try to get a job that involves research now that I got my foot into the door of a psychology related job with my current job. I wish that I could take a year or two to do research but because of my parent who wanted me to go to grad school right away after undergrad and after already taking a gap year after graduation, she wouldn't allow me to postpone any longer. While I do work, I live in NYC where the cost of living is very high. I could live with a roommate but even that would cost a lot more than how much I'm paying for rent living with my parent. 

The School Psychology PsyD program I'm in does offer assistantships that can cover anywhere from 15-18 credits plus a stipend. I applied to a few and now I'm still waiting. Worst case scenario if I don't get one because they already chose their students then I need to fund my education with a part-time job probably 20 hours a week. The tuition for one year would be around $30,000. It's so much and I know this decision is taking the hard way and expensive route but my hands are tied.

Applying for an experimental masters would delay me another year since application season is over and I would need to apply all over again leading to one more "gap year". Chances are I may even like the program I'm in and things work out. But if I don't like school psychology whatsoever then I need to gather any necessary research experience that would make me appealing to Clinical Psychology PhD programs.

Should I have chosen the MSW program instead? The only programs I applied to that are still taking students are the MSW program in a well-known school in NYC where I got into the clinical track. The tuition for the 2 years is also cheap at only $30,000. But I've heard that being a social worker can lead to a high chance of burnout, which any field honestly can. I can become an LCSW but my goal now is to become a doctor. I could go from the MSW to the Clinical Psych PhD but I don't know how much research in social work even if it is mental health related would be valued.

This is a difficult situation and any advice would help. Any thoughts?

[SoundofSilence]

On 6/21/2023 at 9:16 PM, 8215S said:

@SoundofSilence I did speak to one of the faculty at the School Psychology PsyD program who seemed a little more transparent compared to the rest and many others I've spoken to at different schools. I did bring up the same concern about leaving a doctoral program to go to another one but he suggested that sometimes people's interests change and that's fine. But he emphasized that whatever research I can do in a doctoral program would hold more value than a masters. It is true that I would need to be doing research on the side of my classes and part-time job. I'll try to get a job that involves research now that I got my foot into the door of a psychology related job with my current job. I wish that I could take a year or two to do research but because of my parent who wanted me to go to grad school right away after undergrad and after already taking a gap year after graduation, she wouldn't allow me to postpone any longer. While I do work, I live in NYC where the cost of living is very high. I could live with a roommate but even that would cost a lot more than how much I'm paying for rent living with my parent. 

This is of course just my opinion - but is there a way you can convince your parent that rushing this decision will cost you many financial opportunities throughout your lifetime? When thinking about other big life goals that you may have (such as a family, home, travelling, retirement, etc) - one year or so is almost nothing. A heavy debt burden can be a big obstacle for  all those things.

Regarding what the faculty member said - indeed people's interests change. But it's not really great to invest a significant amount of money and then leave. Also they are wrong about the value of "doctoral" level research - you can do high quality research in a master's, or working as an RA, and have serious research products as a result (publications, international conference presentations). Conversely, during your first two years in a doctoral level program you might only have the opportunity to participate minimally in research. It's all about the quality of the experience and the types of things that result from it. Considering you also want to have a part-time job... things get even more complicated. Unless the program is absurdly easy or not training you adequately, it will be difficult to image how you would be able to juggle everything in those two years. I say this as someone who has been a graduate student for quite some time in more than one program. 

On 6/21/2023 at 9:16 PM, 8215S said:

The School Psychology PsyD program I'm in does offer assistantships that can cover anywhere from 15-18 credits plus a stipend. I applied to a few and now I'm still waiting. Worst case scenario if I don't get one because they already chose their students then I need to fund my education with a part-time job probably 20 hours a week. The tuition for one year would be around $30,000. It's so much and I know this decision is taking the hard way and expensive route but my hands are tied.

Having some financial support is a good sign, but again, investing that much money and then leaving is not the best financial decision. If you decide to go this route, it would probably be for the best to just finish the PsyD. This way you can pursue research at your own pace (if you still want) and get licensed to practice at the doctoral level. Remember you can always carve your own "niche" after graduation - just because a lot of school psychologists works in schools, you don't have to. If you start to really enjoy assessments, you might pursue a lucrative career in that area. Or maybe offering support to families? I think there are many interesting opportunities in the field. 

On 6/21/2023 at 9:16 PM, 8215S said:

Applying for an experimental masters would delay me another year since application season is over and I would need to apply all over again leading to one more "gap year". Chances are I may even like the program I'm in and things work out. But if I don't like school psychology whatsoever then I need to gather any necessary research experience that would make me appealing to Clinical Psychology PhD programs.

Yes delaying and applying to an experimental master's doesn't seem to match your goals. I think I suggested that based on the fact that you are not able to take a paid role and had to do a degree. I agree that chances are very likely that you would enjoy the PsyD. 

On 6/21/2023 at 9:16 PM, 8215S said:

Should I have chosen the MSW program instead? The only programs I applied to that are still taking students are the MSW program in a well-known school in NYC where I got into the clinical track. The tuition for the 2 years is also cheap at only $30,000. But I've heard that being a social worker can lead to a high chance of burnout, which any field honestly can. I can become an LCSW but my goal now is to become a doctor. I could go from the MSW to the Clinical Psych PhD but I don't know how much research in social work even if it is mental health related would be valued.

If you do want to go through another application cycle, an MSW may be a good idea in the sense that it opens up opportunities faster and you get licensed sooner. The financial impact is also lower than a PsyD. All fields can lead to burnout. Having the "doctor" title doesn't really help when you get to that point. My worry is that you may place so much pressure on yourself to do all those things during the two years, and arrive at burnout before even finishing your degree. I think it would be a good idea to talk to some of the PsyD students and ask them about workload, work-life balance, time to do paid roles or research, etc. This way you get a better sense of how the workload in the program looks. 

On 6/21/2023 at 9:16 PM, 8215S said:

This is a difficult situation and any advice would help. Any thoughts?

It sounds like a difficulty situation, I am sorry I cannot offer a clear-cut suggestion. 

There are no easy answers. 

I think what would be best is to prioritize. What do you want from your future in 5-10 years? To work in a clinical role (therapist/ assessment)? To do research? Advocacy? To have financial freedom? Just to be called a "doctor"? Do you see yourself working (or never working) with children? Choosing based on priorities may help you figure out what is the best option out of these less-than-ideal doors you have open now.

[psychowannabee]

I echo what @SoundofSilence have said. A lot of your plans of "transferring" into a clinical program after a year or two of psy.d and "working on the side" to beef up your research experience are a tad bit unrealistic and simplistic. In reality, those are extremely rare to happen and you can't put all your eggs on tha basket and hope that it works out. Doctoral programs requires a lot of work as you are balancing multiple things at once ( as a student, TA, clinician, researcher, the list goes on). There's a reason why most APA/CPA accredited programs limit their students to working 20 hrs a week outside of their academic duties as it can be extremely difficult to do all of those while prioritizing your research as a doctoral student. 

 

As it has been mentioned, doctoral supervisors do look up your past academic history and taking a program (the psy.d) with the sole purpose of leaving it in 2 years as a stepping stone for a phd is a huge red flag. You can imagine what kind of letter of rec you can get from your potential psy.d supervisor if you intended to leave their lab in the first place. The idea of transferring to an insitution is not as easy as you make it seem to be. You will be reassesed just like everyone else (under grad, people with MA), and it doesn't give you an advantage to apply as a previously admitted psy.d student (in fact it might hurt) unless you came out with tangible, quality experience (pubs, etc.).

 

Also, unless you're going to be coming out of a masters thesis after your year 2 in the program, then your "doctoral research experience" doesn't really hold any more value than any other research experience that you gain in a post-bac or an experimental thesis. 

 

 

It seems like your parent does have a big control over how you make your academic decisions. I'll be honest, from the sounds of it, they don't seem to have a good grasp of how competitive this field is (which is understandable, many families of clinical/counselling phd applicant's don't, even mine). "Just get in" to grad school right after undergrad is just an unrealistic expectation for anyone who wants to go into this career trajectory. If you haven't already, I would clearly highlight what it takes to get in. In essence, they are essentially forcing you to make academically unwise decisions and brute-forcing you to programs, despite you needing more experience to actually get in. 

As harsh as it sounds, the clinical/counselling phd admissions process is like an extreme version of Hunger Games. Your situation is similar to someone getting sent to the games with only an army knife in your pocket (and being expected to win it all and take home the prize) while everyone else you're competing with has a full set of weapon/armoury and years of training . All odds are against your favour. 

 

 

If you want a true opinion. If I were in your case. I would go for a post-bac 1-2 years position or an experimental masters (with a thesis) and milk those experiences as much as possible. Get the most quality research experience that you can so that you become competitive in fully funded PHD programs where you won't have to rely on your parent to fund your education and hold you back from making wise academic decisions.

Edited June 23, 2023 by psychowannabee

[8215S]

@SoundofSilence @psychowannabee Thank you so much! I really can't thank you both enough for being so transparent with me. It's true that doing research will be a lot to juggle with classes and part-time work and I don't want to burn out. I'll do what I'm capable of doing and I'll try to make the best out of this program. It does have a strong clinical component to it and it is very competitive for internships despite being a School Psychology PsyD. Plus the main reason I even considered this program was because of the assistantships they offer which can cover a large number of credits' tuition plus a stipend. Many of the schools even a PhD program in Counseling Psychology that I looked at wasn't offering something like that. Even if I don't get the assistantship during my first year I can cover it with my current job and gain one more year working there so I don't lose anything. The next year and the years after that I would be very competitive for it because students in my program are very liked. I wouldn't be going through the admission cycle again to go for an MSW. I can do it right now because like I mentioned before I was admitted to a well-known MSW program that is cheap in tuition too. I want as many career opportunities as possible and both the PsyD and MSW can give that to me in their own way. But in the long-term I think the PsyD program would be best because if I turn out to like it or even finish it and carve my own niche like you mentioned. I'm talking with a few more students in the PsyD program now and have before who are helping me answer a lot of questions about their experience in it.

It's true that my parent put me in a difficult position that could potentially hurt my career, but I need to make the best of it and make smarter decisions. If I choose to not go to grad school now after already taking a gap year after finishing my undergrad, I'll live an even unhappier life because she'll always tell me how much time I've wasted and how stupid I was to give up such good schools, as cruel as it is. Leaving after 2 years in the PsyD program is the very last resort. I would only hate that if I'm actually hating the program so much, which I don't really see it because I work with school psychologists and have seen a lot of the testing that they do. If I finish this program I can finally be free and live my own life with a more than stable income and a job always in demand no matter where I live.

I wanted to do therapy, a little bit of assessment, maybe research, and maybe even work full time as a professor in the long term. I could see myself working with adolescents and young adults, maybe kids. Having an LCSW after getting my MSW from a social work program can let me become a supervisor which is also rewarding. I still have a little bit of time to change my decision to the MSW program in the clinical track I was admitted to which has a little more focus on mental health since that's where my interest lies. So based on what I've said and what you all know what should I do? I'm not asking for anyone to make the decision for me, but any insight to help me make my own decision is great help! Thank you so much everyone.

Edited June 24, 2023 by 8215S

[SoundofSilence]

Going after the goals you listed (therapy, assessment, maybe research and teaching), the PsyD seems like the better choice, since you would still have those options in the future. The advantage of the MSW is less time in grad school and gaining independence faster, but probably splitting your time between the clinical and social work activities. 

With both career paths you can supervise in the future and do meaningful work. 

You just have to weigh both and see which one would work best for you. A pro/con list may help with this. 

My take is that finalizing the PsyD, with as minimal debt as possible, gives you the best options for the future. 

[8215S]

@SoundofSilence I've thought about this too and listed out the pros and the cons. They are about the same but the main reason why I'm choosing to the PsyD is because they offer assistantships, which can minimize debt. It's true that the MSW is quicker since it's only 2 years and you can earn money while working 3 years towards becoming an LCSW. I would finally be free. But I'm thinking of the future and the flexibility that I would have career wise. Both offer lots of flexibility but I think my interests align a bit more with the PsyD. As for getting independence, I can try to do that even sometime in between my PsyD if I just want to separate from my parent. I'll try making meaningful connections and I hope that things will work out. At least in NYC, the School Psychology PsyD is more likely to get me a higher salary and the job is in demand. If I become an LCSW, I'll also be earning about 10-15 thousand less than a school psychologist roughly, but that isn't a big deal to me because both career paths have very good salary prospects. Knowing how I am, if I get an MSW then I will either go for the LCSW afterwards or a Clinical Psychology PhD. My interests may still be rooted in mental health and I'll want to become an expert in the field or a doctor. So either way, I'd probably end up going the doctorate route. I hope that this is the right decision and I wanted to thank you again SoundofSilence for being so honest and responsive. It helps to know that there are people who understand and are there to offer support. Thank you!!