Thoughts on online PHDs in religion/theology

[Dillskyplayer]

Does anyone else get a little offended when seeing "Get a PHD in Religion" or "Get a PHD in Theology" online ad pop up on Google or Facebook?

Knowing what I (and you) know about how freaking hard it is to actually find a job in these disciplines AND how selective many decent tier schools are to get into today (some only take 1-2 persons per discipline a year, at least in Judeo-Christian studies such as ethics/theology/homiletics/Bible (Old and New Testament)) -- it makes my blood boil to think that some people think they can just whiz through what normally requires at least a master's degree to apply for in the first place - in like 2 years! Or - that they can apply without doing any prerequisite work because they think that religion/theology is some sort of hocus-pocus degree. Most of these programs don't offer funding for their students, as they are purely for-profit... and could potentially end up costing one of their victims around 75-100k! Chripes! I'm not saying DL or online education is purely bad. I helped TA a couple online courses through my school, which is a brick-and-mortar school, but I am saying that for a PHD in religion or theology today would be suspect at best.

Any thoughts?

Not trying to sound like a brick-and-mortar snob here btw!

[coffeekid]

My blood boils at these sorts of programs too, but for a very different reason. When most people in top religion/theology phds are not getting jobs, I can't help but feeling mortified at the thought of people getting taken in by something like these programs, which I imagine would tank you much further than $100k when you take into account the opportunity cost of not working during that time. I would by no means become upset at these sorts of things, but rather take compassion on the fact that even bright, hard working people can get sucked into something like this, which totally sucks.

Yeah, a bunch more people will have a Ph.D. on their CV... if you (generally) are getting the degree so people can call you "doctor", then you have your own issues and have room to be pissed off. If you're getting it in hopes of finding a job teaching, then these degree won't make any difference in the challenges you'll face.

[Dillskyplayer]

My blood boils at these sorts of programs too, but for a very different reason. When most people in top religion/theology phds are not getting jobs, I can't help but feeling mortified at the thought of people getting taken in by something like these programs, which I imagine would tank you much further than $100k when you take into account the opportunity cost of not working during that time. I would by no means become upset at these sorts of things, but rather take compassion on the fact that even bright, hard working people can get sucked into something like this, which totally sucks.

Yeah, a bunch more people will have a Ph.D. on their CV... if you (generally) are getting the degree so people can call you "doctor", then you have your own issues and have room to be pissed off. If you're getting it in hopes of finding a job teaching, then these degree won't make any difference in the challenges you'll face.

I was watching an old episode of King of the Hill earlier this afternoon while editing my thesis project, hah! Peggy Hill, Hank Hill's ditz of a wife (who continually lifts up being substitute teacher of the year for 3 years running!), ended up enrolling in an overnight PHD program specifically for getting the title so people take her seriously as an educator--not for the experience of becoming a better teacher/contributing to advancing research in a discipline. Unbelievable, yes -- but I'm certain that some people think that becoming a doctor of X validates their life! Funny stuff, but sad at the same time.

Well, the title of doctor is both an honor and a perk The role of teacher, on the other hand, is something I have wanted to do for almost a decade

But, to be sure, I too worry for "online PHD" people finding jobs after doing their doctoral work. Personally, I do Bible myself -- and with seminaries shutting down around the US, and people holding on to their jobs longer due to economic depression, all I can say is that now would be a really bad time to "test the water" with a new thing, that is, online doctoral work for Bible. Seminaries and Divinity Schools have a "graying" population, but with most of my professors being in their 60s -- and planning on staying for another decade or more.... it doesn't look like jobs will be flooding the market anytime soon (at least for traditional seminaries). I assume that most people will take traditional brick-and-mortar over the virtual doctoral degree, at least for now. Maybe within the decade.

For "online PHDs" to be validated, I assume that brick-and-mortar schools will have to start offering online PHD components.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Dillskyplayer

[JonathanEdwards]

I have taken coursework through distance learning, and found it not equal to residential coursework. There are exceptions, but most online schools are either openly for-profit, or are the budget-balancing arm of a non-profit university. In other words, most online programs are run in the same fashion, with predatory admissions and minimal academic standards.

Even assuming a school is trying to do their best at educating people online (which I think is pretty rare) what does one miss academically by doing it online? No face to face discussion seminars, where one has to internalize the material, articulate one’s thoughts on it, and think quickly to respond to those who disagree. No face to face language classes, where one has an actual speaker who can correct pronunciation and answer questions. No being immersed in a dynamic academic community, where one learns from one’s peers and professors in informal discussions.

Unfortunately, most people doing the online university thing do not have a degree from a solid residential university for a point of comparison, and get very upset when questions are raised about the quality of such an education. In my experience, it’s not an area where much reasoned discourse takes place. The sad thing is that most online schools that hold some kind of recognised accreditation prey upon US students with access to Federal student loans, and encourage them to max their loans for a degree that may be legal, but is absolutely non-competitive.

The key to that non-competitiveness isn’t really even the (lame) mode through which the learning is done, but that the programs are not offered by the high-quality schools (and for good reason). Most of the US schools offering online doctorates in religion are either non-accredited, or have accreditation but not much academic respect. There are a number of decent British, Australian, and South African universities that offer their research degrees through a modified format, where one doesn’t live near campus, but usually has to come there every year in the summer. Still, they’re not following the current online model anyway, just allowing you to do your thesis research in other libraries. I am thankful that the US Association of Theological Schools mandates that only a portion (1/3, I think) of one’s degree at an ATS-accredited school can be comprised of non-residential coursework.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Westcott

[Dillskyplayer]

I have taken coursework through distance learning, and found it not equal to residential coursework. There are exceptions, but most online schools are either openly for-profit, or are the budget-balancing arm of a non-profit university. In other words, most online programs are run in the same fashion, with predatory admissions and minimal academic standards.

Even assuming a school is trying to do their best at educating people online (which I think is pretty rare) what does one miss academically by doing it online? No face to face discussion seminars, where one has to internalize the material, articulate one’s thoughts on it, and think quickly to respond to those who disagree. No face to face language classes, where one has an actual speaker who can correct pronunciation and answer questions. No being immersed in a dynamic academic community, where one learns from one’s peers and professors in informal discussions.

Unfortunately, most people doing the online university thing do not have a degree from a solid residential university for a point of comparison, and get very upset when questions are raised about the quality of such an education. In my experience, it’s not an area where much reasoned discourse takes place. The sad thing is that most online schools that hold some kind of recognised accreditation prey upon US students with access to Federal student loans, and encourage them to max their loans for a degree that may be legal, but is absolutely non-competitive.

The key to that non-competitiveness isn’t really even the (lame) mode through which the learning is done, but that the programs are not offered by the high-quality schools (and for good reason). Most of the US schools offering online doctorates in religion are either non-accredited, or have accreditation but not much academic respect. There are a number of decent British, Australian, and South African universities that offer their research degrees through a modified format, where one doesn’t live near campus, but usually has to come there every year in the summer. Still, they’re not following the current online model anyway, just allowing you to do your thesis research in other libraries. I am thankful that the US Association of Theological Schools mandates that only a portion (1/3, I think) of one’s degree at an ATS-accredited school can be comprised of non-residential coursework.

Thank you for the insight. I always try to be somewhat gingerly with my opinions about online education, not only because a lot of people are doing it these days, but because people become, well, pretty upset (butt-hurt) if you aren't sensitive about it. I think DL is not a bad thing. One of my Hebrew students is a DL learner, she listens along in the classroom via Skype while we lecture. But yes, there is something about being immersed in a community, having access to flesh-and-blood people AND books (though e-books are OK). I also find that in online communities, at least in the classes that I have TA'd -- we have a lot of regurgitation on message forums. One person, as the vanguard, leads the pack. The rest post in slightly rehashed, watered down versions of the original persons post. Yikes!

[JonathanEdwards]

Does anyone else get a little offended when seeing "Get a PHD in Religion" or "Get a PHD in Theology" online ad pop up on Google or Facebook?

Ironically, I just noticed that one of the unaccredited online outfits that offers the PhD (Newburgh Seminary) advertises in the banner ads at the top of on this website.

I realize that anyone frequenting The Grad Cafe is likely to only apply to competitive programs, but you may come across people considering one of these 'schools.' Since some of them claim home-grown accreditation from unrecognized bodies, a good site to direct potential victims to is the US Department of Education accreditation database: http://ope.ed.gov/ac...ion/Search.aspx.

[ddsdevil]

What's everyone's thoughts on doing a PhD overseas without relocating? Many reputable schools like Manchester, London School of Theology, Durham, Exeter, and others allow students to do PhD's part-time while only visiting campus once or twice a year (though most require you to be near a good library). I know that they don't compare with 1st tier schools, but could they be competitive with the Evangelical seminaries PhD grads?

[JonathanEdwards]

I know that they don't compare with 1st tier schools, but could they be competitive with the Evangelical seminaries PhD grads?

Hi DDSDevil,

That’s a good question. After giving it some thought, I think such programs are usually not going to be as competitive. That’s not so much an indictment of them, as it is recognition of the historic hiring pattern at American evangelical seminaries, which predominantly hire PhD’s from top-ranked residential programs or from programs within their own narrow niche.

What's everyone's thoughts on doing a PhD overseas without relocating?

Doing a limited-residency program with a British, Scottish, South African, or Australian research university directly (more on that caveat in a moment), may provide access to the best scholar to supervise your research, although not the immersive experience of being there during the academic year and the access to resources that comes with it. Still, if the scholar who is the best choice to supervise your research and help you produce a terrific thesis does happen to be at one of these universities, then it’s worth your consideration.

For people not familiar with the UK scene, many of the limited residency opportunities are indirect, via independent schools like London School of Theology that have ‘validation’ arrangements with royally-chartered universities that are able to issue the degrees. While the better of these non-chartered schools are reputable in their own right, graduates will have to explain to a hiring panel the validation arrangement as well as the lack of residency. Unfortunately for prospective students, the concept of validation itself is currently under fire in the UK, due to one entrepreneurial University’s scandalous validation of some bogus foreign schools.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Westcott