Studying in the US vs Europe for PhD

[downrabbithole]

Hey everyone.

So here's my question. I'm planning on studying the Holocaust in Mass Media, a topic that is really not very popular here in the USA yet. I've spoken to several top universities in Europe (who, according to world ranking are in the same level of schools I was looking at in the US) who are interested in my work and would like me to enroll as a student there. I am very excited, as the school I'm really considering has set up their program with their government and are really working hard to make a well-rounded program. Very few programs in the US seem to be interested in my approach, as it is very interdisciplinary.

The schools I'm looking at are well-known and I've looked at a few conferences at the schools that have professors from the top Holocaust Departments in the USA. It seems like this section of academia is so small and specific that people know one on another on both sides of the pond--if that makes sense. The professors I would like to work under have been educated at either top schools in their countries or the US (many from Harvard).

I haven't made a concrete decision whether or not I want to "settle" forever in Europe or the US. I could see myself working in both places and would love to develop history programs on this subject with European institutions/work with the governments to implement programs like the one at University of Amsterdam. The whole situation will depend largely on where I am in life when I finish, who I will marry, etc., but let's just say that I'm open to the idea of living and working in the US OR Europe (or even Canada).

The issue is that I've seen a lot of people online (never in person) who act as though a foreign PhD is academic suicide. But to me, it seems bizarre to go to Los Angeles to study an event that happened in Europe.... I've also spent time abroad studying at a couple of European institutions, and they seemed very good.

What do you guys think? Is it academic suicide to get a PhD in Europe for Holocaust history? Does it matter? Again, I'm not married to the idea of living in the US OR Europe...

[hupr]

If you plan on teaching in the US, you should probably do an American doctorate. Also there's the question of funding. I'm only really familiar with France and the UK (the former much more than the latter), but there's nothing even close to the institutional support that one gets at a good doctoral program in the US. If you're American and plan on doing a PhD in Europe without being independently wealthy, start looking for outside funding, take out a ton of loans, or plan on working full time and doing your best to get around labor laws. The only advantage I can think of is that in theory, you can be in and out in about 3 years, but that's generally not very realistic if you have to work to survive.

Edited March 4, 2011 by humanprovince

[downrabbithole]

Money isn't an issue...I'm just speaking about everything else.

[db2290]

My impression, as a British graduate who is going to a Ph.D in the States (I also am currently a student at UCL was offered a Ph.D there too, as I see from your signature) is that there are fairly significant differences between doctorates in the two countries, although this may be field specific.

Certainly in my field (Psychology/Education), the British doctorates are much more specific and less learning focused (by this I mean that you don't really take ANY classes and just concentrate on the project at hand). However, they are also about half the length of time!

Someone mentioned foreign Ph.Ds being looked down upon; as someone who is doing one abroad and planning on living back in Europe afterward, I don't think, and certainly hope, this isn't the case. I think different, international perspectives are quite highly regarded in academia and I don't see how this would be anything but a benefit.

[hupr]

Someone mentioned foreign Ph.Ds being looked down upon; as someone who is doing one abroad and planning on living back in Europe afterward, I don't think, and certainly hope, this isn't the case. I think different, international perspectives are quite highly regarded in academia and I don't see how this would be anything but a benefit.

I think it really depends on the department and the country, but in many fields in the US, those with Canadian or European doctorates are at a real disadvantage on the job market. Likewise, if not moreso, in France. Things may be different in the UK, although I'd imagine there's likely a preference there for British degrees, too. That said (and again with the caveat that it depends on the field), I feel like an American PhD has more cachet in Europe than the other way around.

Edited March 5, 2011 by humanprovince

[Zouzax]

i'm actually interested in the money part. I have been considering University of Amsterdam and a school in Paris for my Master's ... in terms of tuition, the school in Paris is no problem, just 400 euros a year, but since I'm not from a EU country (I'm already so sick of hearing that line) the tuition fee at Uva is over 10,000 euro .... are there no scholarships/ grants for foreign MA students? I was planning to apply for the program (deadline is April 1) but if there's no possibility of my getting funding I won't waste my time or money (100 euro app fee)...

[Ennue]

Hello Zouzax,

I see you're from Turkey. I'm from the Netherlands and I've been looking at grants for doing a PhD in the USA for myself, but I've also seen some grants from students coming to the Netherlands. Most of them are for students from either Europe or developing countries, though.

You could try the Huygens scholarship, but the application for fall 2011 was this February: http://www.nuffic.nl/international-students/scholarships/scholarships-administered-by-nuffic/huygens-scholarship-programme

I'm not sure about this one, but you could take a look: http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/erasmus_mundus/results_compendia/selected_projects_action_1_master_courses_en.php

The most useful resource is this website: http://www.grantfinder.nl/content/index.asp It lets you search pretty much all grants that exist in the Netherlands, filtering based on some basic information (country of origin, etc.).

I hope this helps!

In the Netherlands, getting a PhD is more like a job than like being a student. So there is less focus on the learning aspect than in the USA - but you do usually take a few classes. A major upside is that you're paid a salary. I'm not sure how that works for international students though (although I know that many of the people getting a PhD in the Netherlands are international). As far as I can tell, you get more responsibility as a Dutch PhD student and you are kind of treated as an American post-doc.

In my field, as far as I can tell, getting a foreign PhD is not academic suicide if you want to work in the Netherlands - however, that's not because an American PhD is seen as particularly prestigious, but because getting international experience and broadening your horizons is seen as a positive thing.

Good luck to both of you on your decisions!

[Zouzax]

Hello Zouzax,

I see you're from Turkey. I'm from the Netherlands and I've been looking at grants for doing a PhD in the USA for myself, but I've also seen some grants from students coming to the Netherlands. Most of them are for students from either Europe or developing countries, though.

You could try the Huygens scholarship, but the application for fall 2011 was this February: http://www.nuffic.nl...rship-programme

I'm not sure about this one, but you could take a look: http://eacea.ec.euro..._courses_en.php

The most useful resource is this website: http://www.grantfind...ntent/index.asp It lets you search pretty much all grants that exist in the Netherlands, filtering based on some basic information (country of origin, etc.).

I hope this helps!

In the Netherlands, getting a PhD is more like a job than like being a student. So there is less focus on the learning aspect than in the USA - but you do usually take a few classes. A major upside is that you're paid a salary. I'm not sure how that works for international students though (although I know that many of the people getting a PhD in the Netherlands are international). As far as I can tell, you get more responsibility as a Dutch PhD student and you are kind of treated as an American post-doc.

In my field, as far as I can tell, getting a foreign PhD is not academic suicide if you want to work in the Netherlands - however, that's not because an American PhD is seen as particularly prestigious, but because getting international experience and broadening your horizons is seen as a positive thing.

Good luck to both of you on your decisions!

Thank you so much for this, it was really helpful. I found two promising grants for Uva; i can't apply for them myself, I have to be nominated by the school after I submit my application. So I guess I should just bite the bullet & pay the application fee. Who knows, maybe Ill qualify for something.

Actually, I'm going to apply to a Research Master's there. I already have a Master's but I'm trying to increase my knowledge base and experience before applying to a Ph.d program again (I applied this year but was told by one prof that he thought I needed more experience. Ive taken this advice to heart). And I would love to experience a new country. Let's see what happens! Thanks again.

[downrabbithole]

Thanks everyone!

From a global perspective, it seems like many of these people know one another through conferences. It seems to be the same professors from the same schools (these included) that go every year and they're all from the USA and Europe. It doesn't seem like Americans would be all that excited about doing conferences with European schools if they think their school systems are "a joke" (as I've actually heard people refer to European degrees). Plus, I've been trolling my alma mater and local schools to see where faculty earned their PhDs...each school has at least 2 European PhDs, some have as many as 7 or 8.