Should I Go?

[patda]

OK, so I am in a dilemma. This was my first time applying to grad school, and I admittedly started the process a bit naive. I graduated from Northeastern University, BA International Affairs (3.9 GPA), in May 2010 and decided in about November that I wanted to apply for my PhD to start the following Fall (11). Rushed to take the GRE with about two weeks of prep time, and by the time I had that done it was already mid-December, so my options were limited to where I could apply. Scores were 650V, 650Q, 5AW.

I ended up only applying to three schools. Of those three, I only got into one: Northeastern!

Northeastern has offered me a great package: Teaching Assistantship, health insurance, twice monthly stipend.

I had a great experience as an undergrad at NEU. I took a lot of GREAT polisci classes, with most of my professors coming from the top Ivies. But, I also recognize that NEU's PhD program is not even on the map when looking at the "top schools" in this area. So this is the root of my dilemma... is it "worth it" to get a PhD in Polisci from Northeastern? Will such a degree give me opportunities?

The other side of this equation is that I really DON'T want to wait another 19 months to start my PhD, which would be the case if I were to turn down the offer and reapply to more schools for Fall 12.

Is transferring a realistic possibility in grad school? Even if my credit were not to transfer, might being enrolled in another PhD program while applying to other schools boost my chances of getting in?

If I did not have to think about the potential career ramifications of my decision, I would definitely go to NEU next year, because I personally want to be back in school. But then again, I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by not going to the best possible school I think I would ultimately be capable of getting into.

Any suggestions?

[polisciphd]

Let me just ask, what is your career goal, i.e. what do you want to do with the ph.d? If it is to teach, what kind of job do you want after graduating? If you see yourself teaching at a top 50 research university, then going to NE might not be the smart thing to do. If, however, a directional or a community college is your goal, then a degree from NE wouldn't be so bad.

[Count de Monet]

I would have a very honest discussion with your current undergrad adviser about NE's placement record for graduated PhDs...if it's not very good then maybe you want to think of sitting out another year, but if you are convinced that you can get a job with a PhD from NE then I'd take it and be happy.

[Penelope Higgins]

If you finish the coursework for an MA and do really really well, and get strong letters from faculty at Northeastern, you can apply to programs at that point. Northeastern will understand if you do this, especially if you are an undergrad from there. We have students who do this all the time, and we encourage them to move up to more highly ranked departments after their MA if they are good enough. My current department, more highly ranked than Northeastern but not a place often discussed on these boards, has sent MAs on to multiple top 10 PhD programs in recent years - it is a viable option, but you really need to impress the faculty as a grad student to make it happen.

[patda]

Let me just ask, what is your career goal, i.e. what do you want to do with the ph.d? If it is to teach, what kind of job do you want after graduating? If you see yourself teaching at a top 50 research university, then going to NE might not be the smart thing to do. If, however, a directional or a community college is your goal, then a degree from NE wouldn't be so bad.

Do you think a degree from Northeastern would seriously preclude me from the opportunity to eventually teach at a reputable school? I don't exactly imagine myself teaching at Harvard, but it would be nice to think that I could eventually teach somewhere ranked in the same range with Northeastern.

Also, on that note, I don't definitely plan to go into teaching. It is an interest at this point, but I am also interested in the private sector, such as working with NGOs and that type of thing.

My biggest concern about turning down NU is the time I would face with "nothing" to do (not many places interested in hiring for a 1 year position). Maybe I am just being ridiculously short-sighted though.

Would anyone mind commenting on one possibility: go to NU next year while I reapply to other places for the following year. Would I offend the department by doing that? (That's also where all of my LORs would be from in this scenario...)

I appreciate the comments and insight!

[Penelope Higgins]

With a degree from Northeastern you will have a hard time getting a job in the same range as Northeastern.Look at where their graduates have placed, and note that many of these are not tenure track jobs.

Do you think a degree from Northeastern would seriously preclude me from the opportunity to eventually teach at a reputable school? I don't exactly imagine myself teaching at Harvard, but it would be nice to think that I could eventually teach somewhere ranked in the same range with Northeastern.

Also, on that note, I don't definitely plan to go into teaching. It is an interest at this point, but I am also interested in the private sector, such as working with NGOs and that type of thing.

My biggest concern about turning down NU is the time I would face with "nothing" to do (not many places interested in hiring for a 1 year position). Maybe I am just being ridiculously short-sighted though.

Would anyone mind commenting on one possibility: go to NU next year while I reapply to other places for the following year. Would I offend the department by doing that? (That's also where all of my LORs would be from in this scenario...)

I appreciate the comments and insight!

[Tufnel]

My vote is for a redo. If you invested in your applications and Northeastern is what you ended up getting in return, I'd say go. But let's be serious, one month of total prep time is not enough for PhD applications. You're spending 5 years at this place, a few months to maximize your options is time well spent.

Read more journal articles in your field. Write a fantastic SOP. Do some research. Invest more time in the GRE.

But those placements Penelope Higgins posted are not very good. You even noted in your first post that most of the profs at Northeastern come from "top Ivies." That should tell you something about what kind of school you need to go to if you want to teach somewhere like Northeastern. Personally, I think a tenure track position at Northeastern is a solid placement for any school. It's a big PhD granting department in a great city filled with tons of great universities (and thus tons of scholars with which one may collaborate). If that's the kind of job you want, I'd say you definitely should take the mulligan.

Here's a list of placements provided by Northwestern:

http://www.polisci.northwestern.edu/graduate/placements.html

A job at Northeastern would be better than half of the placements listed. In addition, that list is likely incomplete. Add to that list a number of PhDs that didn't receive academic jobs and Northeastern becomes an impressive placement.

That's all to say that the job market is rough.

FYI - I am not in a grad program, so treat my thoughts accordingly.

[Curlygrrl]

Top schools have in many cases little to offer in regards to real teaching experience and while faculty might be token experts in their field they might not have the time to be able to mentor you in your work and push to publish, present etc. Smaller programs provide more opportunity to build up your teaching experience and prowess and often have faculty that will advise and push you within your research area.

I have been told by a number of professors that I admire that it's not so much the school you graduate from but what you do while in your program. In terms of getting jobs, and then getting promoted, what I think matters is, first, the fit between your work and the particular department you apply to, and second, your productivity in whatever terms the hiring department measures/values that.

[patda]

Thanks for all of the excellent responses. I think that the writing is on the wall considering what the best decision is here. It looks like it's now time to wait it out and start working on a better app for next year, and to start choosing some programs to target.

Any suggestions on a well reputed program for political development & sub saharan africa?

[slacktivist]

My vote is for a redo. If you invested in your applications and Northeastern is what you ended up getting in return, I'd say go. But let's be serious, one month of total prep time is not enough for PhD applications. You're spending 5 years at this place, a few months to maximize your options is time well spent.

Read more journal articles in your field. Write a fantastic SOP. Do some research. Invest more time in the GRE.

But those placements Penelope Higgins posted are not very good. You even noted in your first post that most of the profs at Northeastern come from "top Ivies." That should tell you something about what kind of school you need to go to if you want to teach somewhere like Northeastern. Personally, I think a tenure track position at Northeastern is a solid placement for any school. It's a big PhD granting department in a great city filled with tons of great universities (and thus tons of scholars with which one may collaborate). If that's the kind of job you want, I'd say you definitely should take the mulligan.

Here's a list of placements provided by Northwestern:

http://www.polisci.n...placements.html

A job at Northeastern would be better than half of the placements listed. In addition, that list is likely incomplete. Add to that list a number of PhDs that didn't receive academic jobs and Northeastern becomes an impressive placement.

That's all to say that the job market is rough.

FYI - I am not in a grad program, so treat my thoughts accordingly.

Co-sign all of this. It's really great advice.

I'd say to retake the GRE and give yourself a month of prep time; I studied about 15-20 hours per week for a month and thought I improved considerably. Additionally, I would suggest writing a conference paper if you haven't done so already. It is very helpful in giving you a strong writing sample, but it also does a lot to focus your SOP and better figure out which universities fit with your research interests.

I will add Tufnel's FYI to qualify my thoughts on this, as well.

[atlas]

I'd just go if I had full funding. What else are you going to do this year? Plus how do you know you'll get into a better school? If you already sent out a bunch of applications, one more year doesn't necessarily mean you'll be better off. Plus in the mean time you'll be half way through with a master's degree. That actually will make your application look better...with teaching experience, stuff like that. Most of the time you can transfer those units to another PhD program anyway...so it's not like if you stopped at the master's level you'd loose much.

But I agree you do need to decide your career plans. I'm in a PhD program and I now know that my goal is a third tear school. The reason is that the higher up schools are intense. You have to publish like crazy and work, work, work, and still make what like $70-80,000 a year. The professors will tell you this. So I'd rather work at a smaller liberal arts school or lower teared school so I can have a life. It's not a given that you will want to work at the highest ranked schools in the country. That's a lifestyle decision really.

[patda]

I'd just go if I had full funding. What else are you going to do this year? Plus how do you know you'll get into a better school? If you already sent out a bunch of applications, one more year doesn't necessarily mean you'll be better off. Plus in the mean time you'll be half way through with a master's degree. That actually will make your application look better...with teaching experience, stuff like that. Most of the time you can transfer those units to another PhD program anyway...so it's not like if you stopped at the master's level you'd loose much.

This is an interesting perspective. Certainly something I have thought about. Realistically, I think I can improve my GREs a bit (but not drastically, say 650 -> 700 best case), and craft a more concise SOP. However, my application is not necessarily going to be loads better: I won't have any new work or research experience to speak of by the time apps are due, and my LORs will be from the same professors. Basically, I would be broadening the net of where I apply.

Plus, considering that I'm a bit flimsy in my career goals, there is the chance that if I decide to hold out for a better program, even if I do get it, I'll discover it's not for me after squandering a year!

Maybe the best option is to go into the NU program and complete coursework for an MA; if I feel at that point that I have the ambition for a top program, I can make a more concerted effort in that direction, or if my goals are lining up with NU's program, I stick with it. My application after completing an MA would certainly be far and away better than at any time in the upcoming year.

Personally, I have to say that I understand what atlas is saying about wanting to "have a life." I know enough professors at NU who spend every waking minute doing research and getting paper's published, and while certainly impressive, I truly question if I have that type of intensity. In my life, other things have often come before "career" on my priority list -- perhaps that's why this is such a hard decision for me!

Tufnel and slacktavist, I would love to get your thoughts on this.

[hupr]

Basically, I would be broadening the net of where I apply.

Don't underestimate how big of a difference this can make on your application season. You may not be aiming for Harvard or Yale the second time around, but there are plenty of good schools with really respectable placement that you could apply to. An additional year will help you improve your GREs, improve your SoP and come up with a new writing sample that may help you better focus your search of where you'd like to apply. In the meantime, you could also try to find some work or at least an internship that would be relevant to your application while giving you another letter writer.

You also shouldn't underestimate the severity of the job market, which is really, really competitive these days and is likely to get worse. Go have a look at the people who are teaching at the smaller liberal arts schools and where they got their degrees from. I think you'll find that many, if not most, of them got their degrees from top-25 schools. So don't ask yourself if you're willing to settle for not teaching at Harvard; ask yourself if you'd like to be teaching at the schools listed in NE's placement record, keeping in mind that those are the best the department has to showcase and that other graduates may not have been able to find academic work at all.

At the end of the day, if you're not even sure that teaching, research and publishing papers is what you'd like to do, you might want to reconsider doing a PhD.

Edited March 6, 2011 by humanprovince

[patda]

Don't underestimate how big of a difference this can make on your application season. You may not be aiming for Harvard or Yale the second time around, but there are plenty of good schools with really respectable placement that you could apply to. An additional year will help you improve your GREs, improve your SoP and come up with a new writing sample that may help you better focus your search of where you'd like to apply. In the meantime, you could also try to find some work or at least an internship that would be relevant to your application while giving you another letter writer.

You also shouldn't underestimate the severity of the job market, which is really, really competitive these days and is likely to get worse. Go have a look at the people who are teaching at the smaller liberal arts schools and where they got their degrees from. I think you'll find that many, if not most, of them got their degrees from top-25 schools. So don't ask yourself if you're willing to settle for not teaching at Harvard; ask yourself if you'd like to be teaching at the schools listed in NE's placement record, keeping in mind that those are the best the department has to showcase and that other graduates may not have been able to find academic work at all.

At the end of the day, if you're not even sure that teaching, research and publishing papers is what you'd like to do, you might want to reconsider doing a PhD.

Yes, I understand what you're saying; but wouldn't you agree that I would become a much more competitive applicant for a top 25 program with an MA under my belt, plus two years of additional academic experience as a TA. Presumably at this point I'd be able to craft an even better SOP and have stronger LORs then if I spent all of next year on it.

It seems to make a lot of sense to me to invest two years in making my application a LOT better, while also gaining substantive experience and an MA, than to spend one year trying to puff up my current app with some relatively insubstantial improvements.

[Tufnel]

What were the other two schools to which you applied? You applied to three. That's far too small a sample size to conclude that NE is realistically the best you could do.

A PhD is not something to do if you're not going to be 100% committed. At least, I don't think so. You either do it and commit or you don't do it at all. It's too much time and the opportunity cost is too great. Bail if you want something else. One professor advised that I only get a PhD if academia is the only lifestyle in which I foresee a content Tufnel. It's a time sink with lots of associated BS.

If your year off makes you reconsider your commitment to the PhD, then you should count yourself lucky. Better to know before starting than one year into the program.

As far as the "go to Northeastern first" option, do you realize you won't just walk away seamlessly with an MA? If you enroll at NE, you're enrolling in a PhD program. If you want to go elsewhere, you're a transfer. You'll need the support of your professors, support they likely won't give unless you're obviously capable of a much better program. If they don't support your transfer, you're kind of screwed. The potential transfer school will want to see support and letters from your present faculty.

If you want to do an MA first, do a terminal MA. If you're 100% certain that you'll be content with a Northeastern PhD, then go and try to transfer when the time arises. In the event that your attempt is less than successful, you'll still be happy with the result (a PhD from NE). But going with the mindset that you'll simply transfer is a bit unrealistic.

You mentioned at one point wanting to teach at a school like Northeastern. But then the comment about the workload (something you apparently already knew) made you question that ambition. A good starting point is probably "Why am I doing this? What do I want from my PhD?" You have a very good GPA from a decent school. Every remaining piece of your app is still alterable. The GRE can be learned, LORs can be improved, research can be done. Presently, there's no scar on your app that prevents you from consideration at any school in the country. You did well on the only determined factors, the rest has yet to be finalized.

My advice. Take a few weeks and forget about applications, grad school, your future, etc. Do whatever you like to do. Get really drunk and make some cool stories. Road trip. Whatever. Then re-evaluate. If you still want to go to Northeastern and are completely content with the realistic exit options that await, then accept their offer. I'll be going to school in Boston and will buy you a beer when I get there (I'd actually appreciate housing advice). If you want to reapply, then commit and go all in. If you're doing this because you don't know what else to do, then do something else. Teach English in Chile or something.

Either way, best of luck. Sincerely. If all else fails, I've had good luck with Magic 8-Balls.

And again, I have no first-hand experience with any of this. You're probably better off seeking advice from professors than anonymous people on an message board. I could be a smelly 40 year-old that lives in my mom's basement and enjoys elaborate trolling attempts on grad school message boards. In which case you probably shouldn't take me up on the beer.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Tufnel

[Penelope Higgins]

The first two paragraphs of the quote below are absolutely right. Don't do this unless you are sure you want to commit yourself to a life of research and teaching. But the third isn't quite right: finishing an MA and re-applying is a pretty seamless option. Nobody at Northeastern will be surprised - in fact if you do really well, and they have your best interests in mind, they should encourage you to leave. My department, again not one that gets a lot of discussion on these boards, just did admissions. Over half of our admits - and the top candidates who received preferential funding - came in with MA degrees from lower-ranked places. We do expect them to do coursework here and to pass our exams, but we do NOT treat them as transfer students.

I would encourage you to seriously consider going to Northeastern, since it is a funded offer, and to use the two years to figure out whether you want to commit to academia long-term. But like Tufnel I could just be a message board troll...

A PhD is not something to do if you're not going to be 100% committed. At least, I don't think so. You either do it and commit or you don't do it at all. It's too much time and the opportunity cost is too great. Bail if you want something else. One professor advised that I only get a PhD if academia is the only lifestyle in which I foresee a content Tufnel. It's a time sink with lots of associated BS.

If your year off makes you reconsider your commitment to the PhD, then you should count yourself lucky. Better to know before starting than one year into the program.

As far as the "go to Northeastern first" option, do you realize you won't just walk away seamlessly with an MA? If you enroll at NE, you're enrolling in a PhD program. If you want to go elsewhere, you're a transfer. You'll need the support of your professors, support they likely won't give unless you're obviously capable of a much better program. If they don't support your transfer, you're kind of screwed. The potential transfer school will want to see support and letters from your present faculty.

If you want to do an MA first, do a terminal MA. If you're 100% certain that you'll be content with a Northeastern PhD, then go and try to transfer when the time arises. In the event that your attempt is less than successful, you'll still be happy with the result (a PhD from NE). But going with the mindset that you'll simply transfer is a bit unrealistic.

You mentioned at one point wanting to teach at a school like Northeastern. But then the comment about the workload (something you apparently already knew) made you question that ambition. A good starting point is probably "Why am I doing this? What do I want from my PhD?" You have a very good GPA from a decent school. Every remaining piece of your app is still alterable. The GRE can be learned, LORs can be improved, research can be done. Presently, there's no scar on your app that prevents you from consideration at any school in the country. You did well on the only determined factors, the rest has yet to be finalized.

My advice. Take a few weeks and forget about applications, grad school, your future, etc. Do whatever you like to do. Get really drunk and make some cool stories. Road trip. Whatever. Then re-evaluate. If you still want to go to Northeastern and are completely content with the realistic exit options that await, then accept their offer. I'll be going to school in Boston and will buy you a beer when I get there (I'd actually appreciate housing advice). If you want to reapply, then commit and go all in. If you're doing this because you don't know what else to do, then do something else. Teach English in Chile or something.

Either way, best of luck. Sincerely. If all else fails, I've had good luck with Magic 8-Balls.

And again, I have no first-hand experience with any of this. You're probably better off seeking advice from professors than anonymous people on an anonymous message board. I could be a smelly 40 year-old that lives in my mom's basement and enjoys elaborate trolling attempts on grad school message boards.

[Tufnel]

Penelope Higgins, thanks for weighing in. I apparently misunderstood.

Patda - this is why you shouldn't take advice from a smelly 40 year-old that still lives at home.

[patda]

@tufnel and penelope higgins: Useful points on both fronts. Don't worry, I certainly won't be making a decision like this based just on anonymous discussion board posts. I've already scheduled meetings with NU faculty.

finishing an MA and re-applying is a pretty seamless option. Nobody at Northeastern will be surprised - in fact if you do really well, and they have your best interests in mind, they should encourage you to leave.

My best insight is that Penelope is correct about this (in this situation, anyway). The professors who wrote my LORs the first time around were also really helpful in encouraging me to apply to higher ranked programs. I have no doubt they would support me in a transfer up the ladder (assuming I do well enough to warrant one).

[alphazeta]

I'd just go if I had full funding. What else are you going to do this year? Plus how do you know you'll get into a better school? If you already sent out a bunch of applications, one more year doesn't necessarily mean you'll be better off. Plus in the mean time you'll be half way through with a master's degree. That actually will make your application look better...with teaching experience, stuff like that. Most of the time you can transfer those units to another PhD program anyway...so it's not like if you stopped at the master's level you'd loose much.

I think this is spot on. Be honest with yourself, what would you do in a year off, particularly given that its already March? If you have some high-quality private sector opportunity, that's one thing, but otherwise you might find yourself just working a cruddy, boring job that does nothing to improve your situation. Spending more time learning and studying at Northeastern will prep you better for good programs, and it gives you the opportunity to find out if you actually can/want to handle graduate school.