Do the MA or wait it out?

[namul]

Hey guys,

This question is similar to a lot of others, but I wanted some more specific feedback for my situation.

Quick summary of my stats:

Boston College '09 - International Studies

3.75 GPA

GRE: 800 V; 780 Q; 5.5 AW

Seeking: PhD in Political Theory

I was rejected from all my PhD programs and offered a consolation MA by NYU. I think most people would just wait until October and reapply, but there are several reasons that I believe I should do the one-year MA (despite the financial burdens):

- I have limited coursework in political science and no previous courses in political theory.

- My GPA for those poli sci classes is around 3.2 (overall GPA is 3.75).

- I have a strong feeling that 2 out of my 3 recommendations were tepid at best.

- I think my personal statement betrays a lack of research experience in political theory.

By doing the MA at NYU, I think I can improve my chances of getting into a good (or any fully-funded) PhD program for next year. By busting my ass, getting A's in political theory classes, getting better recs, and getting help from my professors on my writing sample, I think I might have a chance of getting into a good program.

Anyone here ever tried this before? (Graduates of NYU's MA program especially)

Thanks in advance!!

Edited March 14, 2011 by namul

[adaptations]

It sounds to me like you've already thought this through pretty well and have figured out exactly why the MA will help your cause. Given your strong GPA and test scores, my guess is that you accurately identified your weaknesses and that a strong showing in the MA will improve those areas. My personal experience involved going to U. of Chicago's CIR program, and then reapplying after completing the program (I would recommend completing the first year before reapplying). If you can afford to enroll in the MA, it can certainly strengthen your application and increase your chances for the future. I think an important question to ask yourself is, if you don't do the MA, what will you do in the meantime to improve your application? It is hard to improve LORs and your Poli. Sci. GPA if you're not in school.

[GopherGrad]

I think you're a pretty good candidate for an M.A. program. These are the same factors that have led me to consider it. For other reasons (existing debt) I probably won't unless I get a fair funding offer.

Another course you might consider, depending on your age, impatience and debt aversion is to apply next year to Ph.D.s and a wider range of MAs. Before making a decision, you might want to look at a breakdown of NYU's master's class and their placement. If they are all in your boat (seeking Ph.D. admissions after completion), you will face really tough competition for better letters and personal counseling from faculty.

Ask NYU how they support future placements. While it's essential that you dedicate yourself to learning, be careful how you frame the service your are buying from NYU. If you had to choose between buying a great political science master's education and buying a great service designed to get you admitted to a Ph.D. program, wouldn't you choose the latter? Assuming that your dedication to learning and placement remains steady, choose the schools that will best support your application.

[ElanMorin]

The only thing I would caution you about is the cost and debt level. NYU is an extremely expensive school in a very expensive place to live. Depending on your financial situation, it may not be worth going $50k in the hole for a year, it will seriously hurt your ability to save money and generally have a reasonable lifestyle in your first few years as a AP making $60k a year.

Not sure what state you live in, but might be worth seeing if applications are still being accepted for an in-state MA program near where you live. It might not have the same prestige as NYU, but an MA from a reasonable state program would be a fraction of the cost, especially if you can live at home, and would still give you the opportunity to do the kind of graduate work that would impress admissions committees for next year. Alternately you could just enroll for a handful of graduate courses at a program like that as a nondegree student to get some political theory courses under your belt.

Again, this depends on your personal situation, but I would think long and hard before choosing a course that involves taking on a massive amount of debt to launch a career that won't pay big bucks. I know a lot of people who did so in their early 20s and really regret it in their late 20s/early 30s when it comes time to get married, buy a house, etc.

[GopherGrad]

That was part of what I was after in my reference to debt aversion when discussing applications to MA programs next year. EM covered the topic explicitly and well, so I will just say three things:

1) Debt can be a millstone. I second the idea that you should look at your overall debt load and likely monthly payments before making a decision to accrue it.

2) Some MA programs offer funding. It is more rare. Funding is nice to avoid debt. Also, if you receive funding from a school that prides itself in Ph.D. prep, it might be a signal that the faculty will invest more time with you (both because you are perceived as a good hope for a notch in their placement belt, and because you will be working as an RA/TA).

3) Working for a year or so has a lot of advantages. Eat better. Take a vacation. Refresh your wardrobe. Save to defray for school costs. Buy yourself a nice toy to sustain a stress-reliving hobby. Generally get your self in position to better weather a few years of austerity without emergencies or temptations.

[lilchinaboy]

Sorry buddy but I can't help with your questions. However, I want to thank you because, based on your qualifications, which are super I think, GRE score is a stellar, GPA is not bad at all, at least I know which schools to avoid when applying.

Edited March 15, 2011 by lilchinaboy

[namul]

Thank you everyone for your feedback. Yeah, lots of things to consider there....

BTW, since I last posted, I have been waitlisted by UCLA, so there is a slight ray of hope for a PhD program this Fall.

Here are some other considerations:

NYU is definitely expensive, but I currently live with my parents in New Jersey, a 45-minute bus ride from NYU. My only expenses for the next year would be tuition. Sorry, Mom and Dad, but I will be eating out of your fridge. My wife is also working full-time and willing to support me until I get into a PhD program (isn't she great?).

I looked into the nearby state school programs, but they either don't have a stand-alone MA, or they don't have political theory. (Rutgers - Newark would have been a good choice, but they only do things like urban policy and American politics.) The only feasible options for MA programs seem to be NYU, Columbia, and New School.

I was thinking of taking three classes this Fall, just to get better grades and LOR, and reapplying in December. At least the admissions committee can see an updated transcript. If I do get in to a PhD program next March, then I don't have to finish my MA do I? If I still don't get in, then I guess I'll finish my MA and reapply again.

I'm also waiting to hear back from the MA programs at Columbia and New School. I know that New School sometimes offers partial scholarships for MA students.

If I do decide to go the Master's route, I will definitely apply for as many outside grants, scholarships, and fellowships as I can find, and NYU does match outside funding. Outside grants is another discussion, but any ideas on good ones to apply for?

[GopherGrad]

I was thinking of taking three classes this Fall, just to get better grades and LOR, and reapplying in December. At least the admissions committee can see an updated transcript. If I do get in to a PhD program next March, then I don't have to finish my MA do I? If I still don't get in, then I guess I'll finish my MA and reapply again.

Adaptations, who had a pretty stellar admissions season, has already counseled against this. I tend to agree with him.

For starters, you'd really only have ten weeks of school under your belt before you'd have to start asking for letters of rec and writing your statements. Are you really going to so impress faculty in that time as to see real improvement in those previously tepid letters? Get so much polisci knowledge that your statement will shine from the pile?

Second, depending upon when your grades post and how fast you can forward on the new transcript, you will submit one semester's worth of grades as the admissions committees are already meeting. Will they see these grades? If the issue with your application currently is a lack of polisci courses, is that semester going to sway the committee?

Third, application forms often ask that you disclose prior application attempts. (Some schools close off applications after three.) I don't know for sure that this is the case, but some ... image problems ... might arise if you apply every year for three years running.

It's pretty clear to me that your application will be heaps stronger during your second year of the program than during your first (when, in my opinion, it will only be marginally better than this year's). Further, most predict that program competitiveness (by the numbers at least) peaked this year and will start sliding. I know it's not clear what you have to lose by applying next year right away (besides money and time), but it's really hard to fathom what you would gain, either.

[lilchinaboy]

Have you ever thought about Seton Hall University, which is also in New Jersey, South Orange, actually. Oh wait they don't offer Political Science Phds...but they do have stand-alone MA programs, mostly in international relations, and diplomacy. It might not fit your interest, oh it's maybe just too professional-oriented. But you can do some research on it.

[Zahar Berkut]

It sounds like you'll be making some considerable sacrifices to do the MA, including depending on your wife for support. Please bear in mind that the political theory job market is abysmal, by far the most competitive in political science. My friends who applied for the PhD this year ONLY considered top 5-10 programs, and were not willing to attend shy of that for fear of being out of a tenure-track job.

I am not saying don't do it, but you must have very strong reasons for believing a paid master's will sufficiently boost your application to a top program. Your GRE scores are stellar, of course, so it's definitely possible. Be sure, though, that you'll get strong letters from reputable (and reliable) faculty, develop a quality writing sample that will be of interest to admissions committees, and have a strong enough record to show you've got the chops for theory. You might also ask the department directly about the "placement" record of their MA grads into theory programs.

Have you looked into MAPPS at U Chicago? I know at least one person doing theory there. Since it's not exclusively a polisci program, your low PS GPA may not count against you as much. They can also offer some funding, so if the amount exceeds your savings from living at home in NJ, it might be worth consideration. But then, maybe you also want to stay close to your wife and family.

Finally, can I ask what your area of interest is in theory? As an international studies major, you've piqued my interest. You can PM it to me.

Thank you everyone for your feedback. Yeah, lots of things to consider there....

BTW, since I last posted, I have been waitlisted by UCLA, so there is a slight ray of hope for a PhD program this Fall.

Here are some other considerations:

NYU is definitely expensive, but I currently live with my parents in New Jersey, a 45-minute bus ride from NYU. My only expenses for the next year would be tuition. Sorry, Mom and Dad, but I will be eating out of your fridge. My wife is also working full-time and willing to support me until I get into a PhD program (isn't she great?).

I looked into the nearby state school programs, but they either don't have a stand-alone MA, or they don't have political theory. (Rutgers - Newark would have been a good choice, but they only do things like urban policy and American politics.) The only feasible options for MA programs seem to be NYU, Columbia, and New School.

I was thinking of taking three classes this Fall, just to get better grades and LOR, and reapplying in December. At least the admissions committee can see an updated transcript. If I do get in to a PhD program next March, then I don't have to finish my MA do I? If I still don't get in, then I guess I'll finish my MA and reapply again.

I'm also waiting to hear back from the MA programs at Columbia and New School. I know that New School sometimes offers partial scholarships for MA students.

If I do decide to go the Master's route, I will definitely apply for as many outside grants, scholarships, and fellowships as I can find, and NYU does match outside funding. Outside grants is another discussion, but any ideas on good ones to apply for?

[namul]

Adaptations, who had a pretty stellar admissions season, has already counseled against this. I tend to agree with him.

For starters, you'd really only have ten weeks of school under your belt before you'd have to start asking for letters of rec and writing your statements. Are you really going to so impress faculty in that time as to see real improvement in those previously tepid letters? Get so much polisci knowledge that your statement will shine from the pile?

Second, depending upon when your grades post and how fast you can forward on the new transcript, you will submit one semester's worth of grades as the admissions committees are already meeting. Will they see these grades? If the issue with your application currently is a lack of polisci courses, is that semester going to sway the committee?

Third, application forms often ask that you disclose prior application attempts. (Some schools close off applications after three.) I don't know for sure that this is the case, but some ... image problems ... might arise if you apply every year for three years running.

It's pretty clear to me that your application will be heaps stronger during your second year of the program than during your first (when, in my opinion, it will only be marginally better than this year's). Further, most predict that program competitiveness (by the numbers at least) peaked this year and will start sliding. I know it's not clear what you have to lose by applying next year right away (besides money and time), but it's really hard to fathom what you would gain, either.

Those are some really good points that you bring up about waiting until I complete a full year of the MA program. I guess I could have more patience instead of trying to push everything through this year.

Also, I had not thought about possible limits on re-applications. I think that would be the key factor for me in deciding whether or not to apply for the next cycle. I know that my application may not be much stronger by this December, but my reasoning was: "I have nothing to lose, right?" Do you know if that is widespread among top 10 programs? I did read something about that on Columbia's website, but I don't think I saw anything about limits when I was researching programs like Princeton and Harvard.

[namul]

It sounds like you'll be making some considerable sacrifices to do the MA, including depending on your wife for support. Please bear in mind that the political theory job market is abysmal, by far the most competitive in political science. My friends who applied for the PhD this year ONLY considered top 5-10 programs, and were not willing to attend shy of that for fear of being out of a tenure-track job.

I am not saying don't do it, but you must have very strong reasons for believing a paid master's will sufficiently boost your application to a top program. Your GRE scores are stellar, of course, so it's definitely possible. Be sure, though, that you'll get strong letters from reputable (and reliable) faculty, develop a quality writing sample that will be of interest to admissions committees, and have a strong enough record to show you've got the chops for theory. You might also ask the department directly about the "placement" record of their MA grads into theory programs.

Have you looked into MAPPS at U Chicago? I know at least one person doing theory there. Since it's not exclusively a polisci program, your low PS GPA may not count against you as much. They can also offer some funding, so if the amount exceeds your savings from living at home in NJ, it might be worth consideration. But then, maybe you also want to stay close to your wife and family.

Finally, can I ask what your area of interest is in theory? As an international studies major, you've piqued my interest. You can PM it to me.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I really appreciate all of the feedback on this thread.

Definitely true about the political theory job market. Sometimes I wish I was an IR or political economy guy, but it's just not for me. My undergrad adviser also gave me a look of pity when I told him I wanted to go into theory and reminded me about my chances of landing a decent academic job. That's why I only applied to top 20 schools instead of Rutgers (which is right in my backyard).

I've heard others mention MAPPS, but I will have to look into it since you say they offer some funding. It may be worth dragging my wife out to the Midwest if they accept me with funding.

[adaptations]

Those are some really good points that you bring up about waiting until I complete a full year of the MA program. I guess I could have more patience instead of trying to push everything through this year.

Also, I had not thought about possible limits on re-applications. I think that would be the key factor for me in deciding whether or not to apply for the next cycle. I know that my application may not be much stronger by this December, but my reasoning was: "I have nothing to lose, right?" Do you know if that is widespread among top 10 programs? I did read something about that on Columbia's website, but I don't think I saw anything about limits when I was researching programs like Princeton and Harvard.

You asked whether there is anything to loose by applying next year, and I think there actually is. First, you use another reapplication, which may be limited (I don't think this is a big loss - hopefully you won't be applying more than three times). More importantly, your application will have only improved marginally, which means you may get in somewhere, but the chance of significantly improving your choices is slim. So lets say that you do get a funded offer applying next year - of course you'll take it and you'll be on to your PhD. Congrats! There is nothing wrong with this, however, if you wait to significantly improve your application you are much more likely to have the best options possible. If you're going to put in the effort to enroll in an MA program, you might as well get the most out of it (also - I am not sure how schools would evaluate your application if you applied with the intention of quiting the MA, or if they would require you to complete the degree before enrolling. That's open to speculation). By waiting to apply, your application should be significantly better and with any luck you'll have numerous funded options, allowing you to choose what is really the best program for you. My argument is that by waiting another year, you maximize your return on the MA, while also positioning yourself to attend the best program possible.

(I've been through this, so if you want more info PM me.)

Edit - Harvard definitely has a three application maximum policy: "It is Graduate School policy that an individual may submit no more than three applications during the course of his or her academic career."

http://www.gsas.harvard.edu/prospective_students/application_instructions_and_information.php

Edited March 17, 2011 by adaptations

[Zahar Berkut]

MAPSS offers full tuition funding to something like the top 5 percent of applicants (on the basis of some sort of voodoo calculation). With your GRE's and overall GPA, you might be competitive. I don't know if my friend who is there now got funded, but she is boosting her theory credentials and loving it. You have the assurance of working directly with big name professors and you can usually work with them on the required master's thesis. Given that Chicago has a stronger rep in theory than NYU, you might look into it.

[camcgee97]

MAPSS offers full tuition funding to something like the top 5 percent of applicants (on the basis of some sort of voodoo calculation). With your GRE's and overall GPA, you might be competitive. I don't know if my friend who is there now got funded, but she is boosting her theory credentials and loving it. You have the assurance of working directly with big name professors and you can usually work with them on the required master's thesis. Given that Chicago has a stronger rep in theory than NYU, you might look into it.

I'm also contemplating going the MA route and studying theory. I got into MAPSS at Chicago with 1/3 funding, but that would still leave me borrowing around $30k. If I were just coming out of school or still at my undergrad, I would take advantage of the opportunity to go to Chicago at the drop of a hat. But since I'm 4 years into a career in politics in DC already, it's a little hard to justify taking a year off, losing my contacts at work, and losing my salary.

Edited March 17, 2011 by camcgee97

[oasis]

My impression is that admissions in theory is probably much more LOR based than any other subfield.

[namul]

You asked whether there is anything to loose by applying next year, and I think there actually is. First, you use another reapplication, which may be limited (I don't think this is a big loss - hopefully you won't be applying more than three times). More importantly, your application will have only improved marginally, which means you may get in somewhere, but the chance of significantly improving your choices is slim. So lets say that you do get a funded offer applying next year - of course you'll take it and you'll be on to your PhD. Congrats! There is nothing wrong with this, however, if you wait to significantly improve your application you are much more likely to have the best options possible. If you're going to put in the effort to enroll in an MA program, you might as well get the most out of it (also - I am not sure how schools would evaluate your application if you applied with the intention of quiting the MA, or if they would require you to complete the degree before enrolling. That's open to speculation). By waiting to apply, your application should be significantly better and with any luck you'll have numerous funded options, allowing you to choose what is really the best program for you. My argument is that by waiting another year, you maximize your return on the MA, while also positioning yourself to attend the best program possible.

Great point. I never thought of it that way.

[namul]

My impression is that admissions in theory is probably much more LOR based than any other subfield.

Where do you get that impression from? Is there a reason that the LOR should play a bigger role in theory?

[ElanMorin]

Where do you get that impression from? Is there a reason that the LOR should play a bigger role in theory?

I don't have any inside knowledge here, but I would imagine that its because its fairly easy to tell someone's aptitude for say, quantitative work, by looking at GRE scores, grades in math/stats/methods classes, etc. But for theory the question is, can this person think critically about political theory to the level required to do a PhD dissertation. Whether a person can do so is better attributed to by a professor who has gotten to know the student, worked with them on a research project, had out of class conversations on the subject, etc, as compared to that student having gotten an A in the one theory class they had as an undergrad (or none in your case).

Edited March 18, 2011 by ElanMorin

[IRdreams]

Sorry buddy but I can't help with your questions. However, I want to thank you because, based on your qualifications, which are super I think, GRE score is a stellar, GPA is not bad at all, at least I know which schools to avoid when applying.

I would caution you against drawing conclusions about your own application potential from the results of another individual. There are a lot of variables at play when it comes to admission beyond the numbers. In fact, generally admissions committees just use the numbers to determine whether your file should be read or go in circular storage. GRE and GPA start mattering a lot less though once the file get opened for serious consideration. LOR, SOP, research experience, and relevance of research experience than dominate the decision making process.

Why is this the case? These softer aspects of the application are designed to prove two things. First, that you are a shooing to be someone's knew favorite student if they let you in. Second, that you can hack a career of research. There are substantial differences between being a good student (which GPA and GREs measure) and being a good graduate student and future researcher, though they are obviously not unconnected from the perspective that committees tend to believe that people who weren't good students also wouldn't be good graduate students.

Edited March 19, 2011 by IRdreams

[oasis]

I don't have any inside knowledge here, but I would imagine that its because its fairly easy to tell someone's aptitude for say, quantitative work, by looking at GRE scores, grades in math/stats/methods classes, etc. But for theory the question is, can this person think critically about political theory to the level required to do a PhD dissertation. Whether a person can do so is better attributed to by a professor who has gotten to know the student, worked with them on a research project, had out of class conversations on the subject, etc, as compared to that student having gotten an A in the one theory class they had as an undergrad (or none in your case).

I would also add that LORs are perhaps the least meritocratic criteria, since pretty much everyone has glowing letters from people that think the world of their students, and thus are all heavily discounted unless the writer is well known to the adcom.

That is why I would caution against taking up the MA to apply in the next round (F'12). Assuming you don't already have great connections at BC, you wouldn't even have one semester to make those connections at NYU. If you want to develop them within that timeframe, you have to start Right Now somehow. If not you may have to wait another cycle.