Help: Choosing between Chicago and Columbia

[danmark]

Need help to choose between two MA programs: Committee on International Relations at Chicago and Political Science at Columbia. Both one-year( Chicago has a second-year specialization program, but competitive), and no funding. Objective in the future: PhD in Political Science, major interests in Chinese politics and foreign relations, international politics, etc.

Advantages of Columbia: three pois Andrew Nathan, Robert Jervis, Jack Snyder, all great scholars and friendly. New York has good location, rich rescources, and wonderful personal ties. Columbia is my dream school and I may impress the faculty in MA studies.

Disadvantages of Columbia: one year passes very quickly and may not fully prepared for future doctoral application. No MA thesis. My most favored professor Nathan, though happy to be my advisor, will not offer nay class in the fall semester, and only one big lecture in the spring semester. Besides, he is almost seventy. Jervis is always busy. Columbia does not encourage its students apply for its own PhD program.

Advantages of Chicago: also pois like Measheimer, Dali Yang, Guy Allitto, and Bruce Cumings. Three quarters and nine courses for one year, seem more solid. The chances of second-year specialization, which provides more time and space for PhD application. MA thesis required. An inter-disciplinary program with courses in departments like Political Science, History, Sociology, etc. Cost is lower than NY.

Disadvantages of Chicago: Location, resource, and personal network not that satisfactory. Mearsheimer's offensive realism may not match my emphasis on idea and culture. I am not sure whether I could succeed in the fierce competition and heavy burden in Chicago. Guy Allitto and Bruce Cumings are both historians and their recommendations may not be as strong as a political sicentist.

Above is my personal feelings while some points come form insiders. I want to ask for help which one will better prepare me for future PhD application. If anyone has any information or advice, please let me know. Thanks for your help!

[Junyan]

Why does Chicago has a disadvantage in 'resources' ? And what is the 'personal network' you are trying to dig out of Columbia?

[s58]

If your eventual aim is getting into a PhD admission, you might be better off doing a program that requires a thesis as opposed to one that does not. Graduate coursework can only signal abilities to an extent and with all the grade inflation that happens in graduate courses, that's not the best indicator. A thesis will not only help you articulate your research interests better, it'll also make you realize whether you do actually want to carry on further research on that topic or not. Most importantly, it'll be a great writing sample for your applications.

Also, don't just choose a program keeping in mind the big names. Most of them pay attention to only PhD students and even if they consent to being your MA advisor, it doesn't guarantee that they'll provide you a stellar letter of recommendation, simply because they never knew you that well. Sometimes, lesser known names can be more suitable for your needs and might be a greater help with both your thesis and your PhD applications.

Also, I second what Junyan says: What resources are lacking in Chicago?

Finally, "I am not sure whether I could succeed in the fierce competition and heavy burden in Chicago" - if you can't do that, then a PhD program might not be the best thing for you.

[Zahar Berkut]

I echo the above commenters: Chicago and Columbia should be comparable in terms of resources, personal networks, and competitiveness. You'll want to weigh the faculty you'll potentially work with, and possibly the quality of advising/ relative treatment of the MA students in the program. Don't worry about seeing eye-to-eye with faculty in a one year program, just find one or two people you think you can build a strong relationship. Writing samples will matter, so consider the CIR thesis part carefully.

[danmark]

Thanks for your reply and it helps a lot!

Currently I intend to apply for PhD, though things may change when I start graduate studies in the States. By resources I mean New York may have more international organizations and institutions which may enlarge my eyesight as a student in international relations. More chances to know what really suits me best.

Your saying about recommendation is useful.

Both programs are one year. Do you think the second-year specialization at Chicago will enchance my future PhD application? If one year, I may go on to apply late in this year as most PhD programs are due on December.

Or, do you think I could first take the Columbia MA, and then re-apply to Chicago CIR? This plan will also take me two years, with a MA thesis, and recommendations from two schools?

Hope to hear your further advice.

If your eventual aim is getting into a PhD admission, you might be better off doing a program that requires a thesis as opposed to one that does not. Graduate coursework can only signal abilities to an extent and with all the grade inflation that happens in graduate courses, that's not the best indicator. A thesis will not only help you articulate your research interests better, it'll also make you realize whether you do actually want to carry on further research on that topic or not. Most importantly, it'll be a great writing sample for your applications.

Also, don't just choose a program keeping in mind the big names. Most of them pay attention to only PhD students and even if they consent to being your MA advisor, it doesn't guarantee that they'll provide you a stellar letter of recommendation, simply because they never knew you that well. Sometimes, lesser known names can be more suitable for your needs and might be a greater help with both your thesis and your PhD applications.

Also, I second what Junyan says: What resources are lacking in Chicago?

Finally, "I am not sure whether I could succeed in the fierce competition and heavy burden in Chicago" - if you can't do that, then a PhD program might not be the best thing for you.

[danmark]

Thanks for your advice. Faculty in both programs are attractive and most of them are approachable. I will continue to contact them and see whether they have interest in me. Again, what do you think about my plan: I could first take the Columbia MA, and, upon graduation, re-apply to Chicago CIR. By doing so I may enjoy the resources at both universities, recommendations from schools, which may enchance my potential competitiveness in the future.

I echo the above commenters: Chicago and Columbia should be comparable in terms of resources, personal networks, and competitiveness. You'll want to weigh the faculty you'll potentially work with, and possibly the quality of advising/ relative treatment of the MA students in the program. Don't worry about seeing eye-to-eye with faculty in a one year program, just find one or two people you think you can build a strong relationship. Writing samples will matter, so consider the CIR thesis part carefully.

[Junyan]

Plz do due diligence on OPT (Optional Practical Training)

Also, keep in mind: Single simple, double trouble

Thanks for your advice. Faculty in both programs are attractive and most of them are approachable. I will continue to contact them and see whether they have interest in me. Again, what do you think about my plan: I could first take the Columbia MA, and, upon graduation, re-apply to Chicago CIR. By doing so I may enjoy the resources at both universities, recommendations from schools, which may enchance my potential competitiveness in the future.

[s58]

Yes, consider doing the OPT. Doing 2 MAs sounds like a waste of time and money. And if you want to make the most of this opportunity, don't apply for Fall 2012- you still won't have any part of your thesis as a writing sample, no grades and no real connections with your professors who would be able to write you good letters after knowing you just for 2-3 months.

I would suggest picking a program, giving it your best, doing the OPT (if you really want to stay in the States after graduating) and then applying for PhD programs (if you still want to) for Fall 2013.

[danmark]

Thanks very much! This is the first time that I heard the word "OPT". Do you mean finding a job after MA graduation, then apply for PhD program in the next year?

Plz do due diligence on OPT (Optional Practical Training)

Also, keep in mind: Single simple, double trouble

[oasis]

Try to identify more people at each place that you might be interested in working with, not just the famous scholars.

You don't have a lot of time to form these relationships if you apply for Fall 2012. Seriously consider Fall 2013.

You may also want to consider other career options available to you if you decide later that you don't want to apply for PhD programs. Columbia may be better in that regard, but I don't know for sure what their MA placement is like.

[danmark]

Yeah, you are right. Famous scholars may be too busy to pay any attention to my work. 2012 is also too tight. If I choose Chicago in the end, I may have the chance to participate in the second year program, which may offer more time for application preparations. I am trying to figure out which program, Chicago CIR and Columbia PS MA, has better reputation and placement, but find it difficult as insiders say that individual is much more important than program itself. Placements are diverse in both.

Try to identify more people at each place that you might be interested in working with, not just the famous scholars.

You don't have a lot of time to form these relationships if you apply for Fall 2012. Seriously consider Fall 2013.

You may also want to consider other career options available to you if you decide later that you don't want to apply for PhD programs. Columbia may be better in that regard, but I don't know for sure what their MA placement is like.

[Zahar Berkut]

Last I checked, CIR's placement record section on their site was outdated, but if MAPSS is a good indication, they place well. If you are very interested in the second year specialization, ask CIR directly about the chances of going on to that. If you have the time and inclination, it can be a good way to build depth and stay in grad school while doing PhD applications for the following fall.

Yeah, you are right. Famous scholars may be too busy to pay any attention to my work. 2012 is also too tight. If I choose Chicago in the end, I may have the chance to participate in the second year program, which may offer more time for application preparations. I am trying to figure out which program, Chicago CIR and Columbia PS MA, has better reputation and placement, but find it difficult as insiders say that individual is much more important than program itself. Placements are diverse in both.

[expatbayern]

I was at CIR and while I didn't work with Mearsheimer (since I do formal and quantitative IPE, there wasn't really much call to), I had multiple friends who had him as their advisor on their MA theses.

He absolutely does really work with "mere MA students"--ie they had regular meetings, he read their drafts, gave intensely detailed feedback, pushed them on their logic and argumentation, etc. I also think you'd find he isn't just looking for people who agree with him; he's happy to advise people who do things completely at odds with offensive realism as long as their arguments are novel, well-formed, and compelling.

I can't speak for everyone else on the faculty--there were a couple professors who looked down their noses at MA students, but this tended to be junior people, not the real "big names" in the department (who I always found accessible).

[danmark]

Thanks for sharing the information. I have several questions about CIR and you might be the best one to answer.

First, what about the placemnets of CIR graduates? Have they been accepted by top schools?

Second, do you think 2012 fall application is a too tight schedule? Professors may know me for only two or three months upon the deadline. Besides, I may not have had any solid academic work in the proposed field.

Third, how competitive is the second year program at CIR?

Fourth, if I want to apply for PhD in Political Science, will references from historians like Guy Allito and Bruce Cumings take effects?

Fifth, I heard that economic and quantitive background are important for PhD applicants in political science whichever subfield he will do. What about the statisctics and game theory classes at CIR?

Sorry about so many questions. Look forward to your reply.

I was at CIR and while I didn't work with Mearsheimer (since I do formal and quantitative IPE, there wasn't really much call to), I had multiple friends who had him as their advisor on their MA theses.

He absolutely does really work with "mere MA students"--ie they had regular meetings, he read their drafts, gave intensely detailed feedback, pushed them on their logic and argumentation, etc. I also think you'd find he isn't just looking for people who agree with him; he's happy to advise people who do things completely at odds with offensive realism as long as their arguments are novel, well-formed, and compelling.

I can't speak for everyone else on the faculty--there were a couple professors who looked down their noses at MA students, but this tended to be junior people, not the real "big names" in the department (who I always found accessible).

[s58]

"First, what about the placemnets of CIR graduates? Have they been accepted by top schools?"

Only 7-8 people out of the entire cohort applied for Ph.D. programs and everyone's been accepted good programs, with a majority of them getting into the top 10-15 programs. Except for two people who applied 2-3 months after joining CIR(and even they got into good programs), the rest of the people applied after they had done CIR. CIR's website lists some schools which alums get into, and that's a pretty indicative list.

"how competitive is the second year program at CIR? "

Only 3-4 people are accepted for the second year. Competitiveness varies each year as anything from 4-8 people might want to do a second year.

I know there are quantitative, data analysis and game theory classes offered, but I never took any of them, so I'm not the best person to answer about those.

Edited March 29, 2011 by s58

[expatbayern]

I know there are quantitative, data analysis and game theory classes offered, but I never took any of them, so I'm not the best person to answer about those.

I took two formal modeling/game theory courses down at the Harris School while I was at Chicago. One of them was automatically on the approved list of courses that fulfilled CIR requirements; one of them I had to get permission (but this was pro forma, as long as you have a good justification for it, they won't stop you from doing what you want to do).

I didn't know anyone in my cohort who took them, but the methods sequence in the Department is on the approved list.

As to the questions about application timing, only one person from my cohort applied to PhD programs that first fall: he's at OSU now. The others of us who waited to apply until we were finished are at similar- to higher-ranked places.

[danmark]

Thanks for your reply. Are you in the second year porgam now? Or take a OPT?

I took two formal modeling/game theory courses down at the Harris School while I was at Chicago. One of them was automatically on the approved list of courses that fulfilled CIR requirements; one of them I had to get permission (but this was pro forma, as long as you have a good justification for it, they won't stop you from doing what you want to do).

I didn't know anyone in my cohort who took them, but the methods sequence in the Department is on the approved list.

As to the questions about application timing, only one person from my cohort applied to PhD programs that first fall: he's at OSU now. The others of us who waited to apply until we were finished are at similar- to higher-ranked places.

[expatbayern]

Thanks for your reply. Are you in the second year porgam now? Or take a OPT?

I was at Chicago 07-08; I did not apply for a second-year and don't remember anyone else from my cohort doing so (I did know people doing a two-year dual-degree MA from CIR and MPP from Harris). I am now in my second year at Rochester.

[hupr]

If money is a concern, as it is for most of us, you might want to keep in mind that the cost of living is a lot lower in Chicago than it is in New York...

[danmark]

After careful consideration, I plan to take Columbia Political Science MA... It's a hard decision, and sad to give up the CIR program which is really wonderful. Following lie the reasons:

1 I sincerely desire to work with Nathan, Jervis, and Snyder. Though he will not offer seminars, Nathan's works on Chinese foreign policy have impressed me. Besides, he is my role model!

2 Mearsheimer will not offer class in the coming academic year, while Jervis and Snyder will both offer seminars in the fall 2011;

3 Placement of Columbia MA students seems to be comparable with that of CIR, though may not be as amazing;

4 PhD may not be the only ultimate goal. OPT is also a good choice. And New York is a great place for OPT;

5 Chicago orders me to re-take TOEFL as my sepaking does not meet the minimum demand. I hate TOEFL! (Seem like an excuse for my lasiness)

6 Columbia is the mother school of many respected Chinese intellectuals;

...

I am not sure whether this is the best choice. But, whatever the future may be, I will never regret.

[beaverish]

After careful consideration, I plan to take Columbia Political Science MA... It's a hard decision, and sad to give up the CIR program which is really wonderful. Following lie the reasons:

1 I sincerely desire to work with Nathan, Jervis, and Snyder. Though he will not offer seminars, Nathan's works on Chinese foreign policy have impressed me. Besides, he is my role model!

2 Mearsheimer will not offer class in the coming academic year, while Jervis and Snyder will both offer seminars in the fall 2011;

3 Placement of Columbia MA students seems to be comparable with that of CIR, though may not be as amazing;

4 PhD may not be the only ultimate goal. OPT is also a good choice. And New York is a great place for OPT;

5 Chicago orders me to re-take TOEFL as my sepaking does not meet the minimum demand. I hate TOEFL! (Seem like an excuse for my lasiness)

6 Columbia is the mother school of many respected Chinese intellectuals;

...

I am not sure whether this is the best choice. But, whatever the future may be, I will never regret.

eh, you're into chicago and columbia, you can't possibly go too far wrong with either one.

[Junyan]

After careful consideration, I plan to take Columbia Political Science MA... It's a hard decision, and sad to give up the CIR program which is really wonderful. Following lie the reasons:

1 I sincerely desire to work with Nathan, Jervis, and Snyder. Though he will not offer seminars, Nathan's works on Chinese foreign policy have impressed me. Besides, he is my role model!

2 Mearsheimer will not offer class in the coming academic year, while Jervis and Snyder will both offer seminars in the fall 2011;

3 Placement of Columbia MA students seems to be comparable with that of CIR, though may not be as amazing;

4 PhD may not be the only ultimate goal. OPT is also a good choice. And New York is a great place for OPT;

5 Chicago orders me to re-take TOEFL as my sepaking does not meet the minimum demand. I hate TOEFL! (Seem like an excuse for my lasiness)

6 Columbia is the mother school of many respected Chinese intellectuals;

...

I am not sure whether this is the best choice. But, whatever the future may be, I will never regret.

As far as I can tell, the real reason is No.5.

[danmark]

No.5 is an important reason. I will re-take TOEFL at April 23rd and the result will come out in May 7th. No idea about the result. No time to take it again in mid-May due to final thesis. The i-20 form and visa appointment are also in urgent need.

Another equally important reason is some information from insiders at Columbia. Though a cash-generating program, it will provide solid trainings in IR theory, quantitive and qualitive methods.

Dali is an interesting scholar, but I has not much interest in Chinese political economy. What interests me most is Chinese foreign policy. That's why I favor Professor Andrew Nathan even though he is very, very old.

I will make my final decision after my TOEFL result comes out. Still welcome your further advice!

As far as I can tell, the real reason is No.5.

[danmark]

It is a hard decision.

eh, you're into chicago and columbia, you can't possibly go too far wrong with either one.

[Junyan]

This is your own choice, so no need to explain to us. Honestly I think very few people on this board would really care about your decision. As long as it makes to you, it should be fine.

No.5 is an important reason. I will re-take TOEFL at April 23rd and the result will come out in May 7th. No idea about the result. No time to take it again in mid-May due to final thesis. The i-20 form and visa appointment are also in urgent need.

Another equally important reason is some information from insiders at Columbia. Though a cash-generating program, it will provide solid trainings in IR theory, quantitive and qualitive methods.

Dali is an interesting scholar, but I has not much interest in Chinese political economy. What interests me most is Chinese foreign policy. That's why I favor Professor Andrew Nathan even though he is very, very old.

I will make my final decision after my TOEFL result comes out. Still welcome your further advice!