PHD Cognitive Neuropsychology/ Cog. Psych?

[JerryC]

Hello, all. I'm currently a high school student that aspires to a PHd in Cognitive Neuropsychology or Cog. Psych. However, factors I'm worried about:

A) PHD programs - Are they really that hard to get into? I saw the acceptance rates - prevalent stats were about 300 people apply, and only 30 get in. Is it really this cutthroat in comparison to undergraduate admissions at competitive universities?

B.Job Availability- How hard is it to find a job that earns at least $50000/yr? In addition, are there a lot of jobs available/emerging for these fields?

Thanks!

Edited May 10, 2011 by JerryC

[neuropsych76]

Hello, all. I'm currently a high school student that aspires to a PHd in Cognitive Neuropsychology or Cog. Psych. However, factors I'm worried about:

A) PHD programs - Are they really that hard to get into? I saw the acceptance rates - prevalent stats were about 300 people apply, and only 30 get in. Is it really this cutthroat in comparison to undergraduate admissions at competitive universities?

B.Job Availability- How hard is it to find a job that earns at least $50000/yr? In addition, are there a lot of jobs available/emerging for these fields?

Thanks!

Hello, welcome to the forum!!

It's great you are planning ahead for grad school but please remember things can quickly change so try not to be dead set on something before you even start college.

A) yes, phd programs are very competitive. It is much much harder than undergraduate (the school name matters less in grad school also). Keep in mind that PhD programs in the sciences also pay tuition and pay you a decent stipend to live off of. That is why they are so competitive, they pay YOU.

B ) this is more of a tricky question because of the variability and i'm sure others can answer it better. yes, you can make 50k as an assistant professor but the professor track is very competitive (if that's what your into) you could probably find an industry job where you'd be making 50k with a phd.

as a side note, it's important that you realize there really isn't a "cognitive neuropsychology" phd. there is clinical neuropsychology and cognitive neuroscience but those are completely different programs.

just search around the forum and you'll find tons more info, good luck!

Edited May 10, 2011 by neuropsych76

[LJK]

A high school student? You are way more on top of things than I was. PhD programs do have very tough acceptance rates - but if you set yourself up with a great application and apply to lots of schools you will have a good shot (well, at least currently; I don't know what it will be like 4 or 5 years from now). One thing to realize is that there are many people (generally not the people posting to this forum) who don't really know what graduate school is about but feel like they want to go back to school. The people who know what they are getting into and can articulate concrete research interests that align with a potential advisor stand out. There are still many more of these people than slots at any given university, which is why you should apply to a good number.

I don't know if you have chosen a college yet. If not, choose your undergrad university based on having a research program in your desired field. You don't need to find a lab that does what you want to do for the rest of your life. You just want to avoid going to a small liberal arts school that teaches one cognitive psychology course and has professors who teach four courses a semester. Those professors will not have time to do research and you will not get good experience. Research experience is often what makes a candidate really stand out.

If you are a senior and know where you are going next year, figure out what you need to do to qualify as a research assistant. There may be some basic courses that you are supposed to take first. If there is something that really interests you right from the start, email the professor of the lab doing the research or drop by his/her office hours. There is a trade off of younger students knowing less background and having more time to teach them things that they can be doing for the lab for many years. If you are going to a small liberal arts college, start locating and applying to summer research programs (REU) right from the start.

Job wise, I think $50,000 would be do able. What the job market will be like in 10+ years is hard to say, but my feeling is that cognitive technologies are a future direction that industry is going to go it. How can we capitalize on what we know about human cognition to make technology effortless to use and how can technology take advantage of the assumptions our brains make about how the world works? Industry will need trained cognitive scientists to deal with these questions. If there is a greater demand in industry, there may also be an expansion of departments in academia, though that is a slower process.

[JerryC]

Thank you! At the moment, I am lost as to whether or not I want to "risk" my college career. In selecting psychology as my major, I know that if I cannot get into grad school, I'm pretty much doomed because the aspects of it in which I am interested by will be unavailable. I'm currently a junior - soon to be senior. I'm a fairly good student, I would say (2000+ SATs , 4.0GPA, etc.) but everyone who applies for a PhD are in the cream of the crop - that's why I'm worried. LJK, you mention not attending a liberal arts college because it would be unfavorable in terms of research experience. Does this apply for all LACs? I really love the liberal arts also... but if it gets in the way of psych, my true passion, I guess I could give it up. I was planning on attending a top LAC such as Amherst, Claremont McKenna, etc. but are they out of the question? Thank you for your time - these are some very timely responses.

[neuropsych76]

Thank you! At the moment, I am lost as to whether or not I want to "risk" my college career. In selecting psychology as my major, I know that if I cannot get into grad school, I'm pretty much doomed because the aspects of it in which I am interested by will be unavailable. I'm currently a junior - soon to be senior. I'm a fairly good student, I would say (2000+ SATs , 4.0GPA, etc.) but everyone who applies for a PhD are in the cream of the crop - that's why I'm worried. LJK, you mention not attending a liberal arts college because it would be unfavorable in terms of research experience. Does this apply for all LACs? I really love the liberal arts also... but if it gets in the way of psych, my true passion, I guess I could give it up. I was planning on attending a top LAC such as Amherst, Claremont McKenna, etc. but are they out of the question? Thank you for your time - these are some very timely responses.

I know you asked LJK about liberal arts colleges but I feel obligated to stand up for liberal arts colleges and research experience. I go to a very small (approx 1600 students) private liberal arts school in the middle of no where and have recieved outstanding research experience. Since there are no grad students here, professors use undergrads to help their research all the time and there is a plethora of projects to work on.

I might be the exception here, but I feel that my small liberal arts school has given me many more research opportunites than big time research schools. I also used my summers to gain research experience elsewhere but was able to get good summer research positions because of my solid school research experience.

So don't exclude a college just because its liberal arts. You could find that the research experiences there are plentiful.

As for being a psych major, yes its tough if you don't get into grad school. But its not all doom and gloom, you can find a job. But if you really want to be a psychologist, you'll make it happen.

[cogneuroforfun]

I know you asked LJK about liberal arts colleges but I feel obligated to stand up for liberal arts colleges and research experience. I go to a very small (approx 1600 students) private liberal arts school in the middle of no where and have recieved outstanding research experience. Since there are no grad students here, professors use undergrads to help their research all the time and there is a plethora of projects to work on.

I might be the exception here, but I feel that my small liberal arts school has given me many more research opportunites than big time research schools. I also used my summers to gain research experience elsewhere but was able to get good summer research positions because of my solid school research experience.

So don't exclude a college just because its liberal arts. You could find that the research experiences there are plentiful.

As for being a psych major, yes its tough if you don't get into grad school. But its not all doom and gloom, you can find a job. But if you really want to be a psychologist, you'll make it happen.

It is definitely true that any particular LAC may have plenty of research going on that is interesting to you. But it is also true that most bigger, research-oriented universities will have more labs working on any particular topic, as well as more diversity in what topics are being researcher. So while it isn't true that you won't be able to get research experience at a LAC, your options may be more restricted. Still, like neuropsych said, you can (and should!) do full-time summer research gigs, whether you end up at a LAC or big research U. If a LAC is the best fit for you and they don't have a lab doing exactly what you're interested in, getting experience in even a loosely-related area still "counts" and will be a huge positive if you do end up applying to PhD programs.

Anecdotally, there are plenty of people in my PhD program that went to LACs, but I think all of them took a year or two after college to get full-time research experience (although many of the people who went to research universities also took time off).

[LJK]

LJK, you mention not attending a liberal arts college because it would be unfavorable in terms of research experience. Does this apply for all LACs? I really love the liberal arts also... but if it gets in the way of psych, my true passion, I guess I could give it up. I was planning on attending a top LAC such as Amherst, Claremont McKenna, etc. but are they out of the question?

I in no way meant that all small liberal art colleges do not do research and do not provide good research experiences. I suspect that you will find good research opportunities at many liberal arts colleges. What I actually wrote:

You just want to avoid going to a small liberal arts school that teaches one cognitive psychology course and has professors who teach four courses a semester.

is a statement I stand behind. If you are interested in cognitive psych, make sure that there are courses beyond a single survey/lecture course. Are there upper-level courses on language, memory, cognitive development, cognitive neuroscience, etc. in the course catalogue? Ask how often the courses you are interested in taking are actually taught - sometimes courses are listed but haven't been taught in years. At my current university, the cognitive upper-level classes are usually the least in demand. The department still holds them but a less well staffed department may not. Check to see that the professors in the department are publishing current (within a couple years) work. If you really want to check things out, check the current course schedule and see how many courses the professors in the department are teaching at once. The more time the professors spend teaching, the less time they have for research.

Since there are no grad students here, professors use undergrads to help their research all the time and there is a plethora of projects to work on.

Just as another side of this perspective, graduate students being in a department doesn't mean that there are less opportunities for undergraduates to be involved. In psychology, graduate students often have their own line of research that is distinct from their advisor's rather than being handed a part of a larger project. These experiments need to be run, coded and analyzed just like the professors'. Graduate students often manage their own undergraduate RAs or help manage lab RAs that work on all of the projects in the lab. Graduate students tend to be in the lab more with fewer lab-external responsibilities in comparison to professors. They can be great mentors. Professors can be great mentors too if they are around enough. Basically, you will be able to find the experience you need as long as you attend a school that has an active research program.

One last point - the liberal arts are still found at larger universities, usually within a college of arts and sciences or something similar. I personally ended up choosing a small private research university and in the end was very happy with my choice. The other school that I seriously considered was a second tier liberal arts college (I got into some first tier but they weren't giving me much financial aid). All the admissions materials said that they were active in research but on visiting, the professors were open in saying that that was not true.

Anyway, good luck with your future plans! Remember that there is tons of stuff out there that you haven't even heard of yet, so while planning is good, also take some time to sample things that sound interesting!

[psycspy]

Everyone's advice seems generally on target but... seriously? You're still a teenager. Trying to plan your entire life at this point seems terribly foolish to me. Take courses outside of psychology when you get to college -- you'll never REALLY know that the Pyschology PhD path is right for you until you've also studied topics that *aren't* right for you. As a sidenote, I feel the general atmosphere of the GC forums is "Eat - Sleep - Breathe School and Research 24/7!!!!" but real life is so much more than that. College will be some of the best years of your life (seriously!), and if you're too dead-set on doing every single thing just to get ahead academically, you'll probably feel like you lost out in the end.

[cogneuroforfun]

On the other hand, I wish I had some idea of what I wanted to do earlier than junior year of undergrad. I would have applied to more universities for undergrad, taken some different classes, and generally done more things that I would have enjoyed AND helped further my goals, instead of things that I enjoyed and didn't necessarily help me that much. Its never too early to start thinking about your interests and possible future careers, just know that your interests will likely change.

[Arcadian]

So basically, there are two perspectives on this. On one hand, you might be limiting yourself by specifying the details of your career path as a high school student. On the other hand, you might be better prepared for graduate school than anyone I've ever heard of.

Obviously, since you're considering my field of choice, I will encourage it. Cog neuro is a fascinating and growing field. There are no downsides except the need for 4-6 years of grad school. However, one can't help but wonder if you will discover other, equally fascinating fields during your college experience that are better suited for you. For example, when I started college, I wanted to become a nanophysicist. Nanophysics is also a fascinating and growing field, but it turned out I was less than stellar at physics and calculus, but I performed exceptionally well in psychology and statistics. Not only that, but my interest shifted toward an interest in the brain-mind interaction and research involving human subjects at the biobehaviorial level of analysis. So you need to give your interests time to develop as well.

My advice is to take a wide variety of classes in your first year (or two) of college, and even to wait before declaring your major. This will allow you to experiment with courses from different departments (while taking a handful of core requirements) before you commit to any particular field, but you will still have plenty of time to focus on your concentration for the remaining 2-3 years.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Arcadian