A Tactical Conundrum

[crazedandinfused]

Hey everyone,

I've been lurking around this board for a while and it's finally time to ask the big question which has been bouncing around my head for the last year. I have had a long academic journey and I have finally gotten to the point where I am certain that I want to be a Historian. I am definitely going on to a PHD but my question is mostly tactical regarding the best approach to application.

I have a BA in Anthropology (3.0 GPA) and a Master's degree in International Development (3.4). My Master's is a policy degree that gets you ready to work for the government/UN/aid agencies. I at one point had thought that this might have been a career path which I was interested in, but after one semester I realized it wasn't for me. Instead of dropping out I took as many cross-listed grad courses in econ and poli sci as i could. I also took one graduate seminar in History.

So I have done a significant amount of graduate work, completed a graduate degree, and am familiar with the seminar setting and what graduate work entails. My question is: Given my non-History academic background (This is kind of a misnomer. I have always been a historian. My work up until now has merely contextualized my historical perspective), and my somewhat mediocre grades, would I be better off applying for an MA or a PHD? Above all I want to get in somewhere. I have spent the last 6 months reading the scholarship on the field I am interested in -19th Century US cultural history- and I am going to spend the summer working on my writing sample. I am re-taking the GRE to get a better score and I should have ok LORs ( because at least two will come from non-Historians I am praying that I can get the third from the professor of the grad course that i took in history. He also happens to be department chair.) Recently I have been leaning towards applying for an MA because I would have to get one anyway and I'm terrified of rejection.

If anyone has any advice I would really appreciate it. I can also elaborate on my academic history if necessary. This conundrum keeps me awake some nights..................

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS: I should point out that there is actually much more coherence to my academic career than I let on. My Master's essentially dealt with the development of capitalism and urbanization, as well as touching on some of the socio-cultural ramifications of those developments. I am interested in the history of these same processes in the US and how culture both responded to, and laid the groundwork for, these forces of "modernization". That's where Anthropology fits in.

Edited May 21, 2011 by crazedandinfused

[sacklunch]

Apply to both. More than likely you will need to do an MA. It's hard to say.

[TMP]

Apply to a range. Try not to go into debt if you wind up with only terminal MA programs at the end.

It's possible. You just need to spend some time sitting down and thinking about how your previous coursework and interests led you to your current research questions. Show that you understand the historians' arguments.

Previous history degrees aren't required for the PhD. I connected with a student in a top 20 program who did her MA in German Studies and BA in biology!

[Gaijinhakuryu]

Hi Crazedandinfused,

Apply to a range of programs simply because that's the smart thing to do regardless of your background. I don't know how important the name of the field on your degree is because it seems to vary by program. I got my BA in English literature and my MA in anthropology. During this past admissions season, a top 25 program rejected me for the PhD program (but accepted me into their MA program) because they require a History MA, and a top 10 program accepted me into their first string. I've never actually taken a formal history course at the undergraduate or graduate level. However, my research in other fields has always been historical in approach. (In my statement of purpose, I explained how my experience writing in other fields led me to the conclusion that I was more a historian than something else, and thus I needed formal training in a history program. You should probably address this issue in your statement of purpose too.)

I don't know if my experience is abnormal, but if your statement of purpose intelligently explains why you've come to history at this point in your academic career and your writing sample proves that you're capable of insightful research of a historical nature, you probably have as good a shot as any.

[StrangeLight]

as others have said, apply to a range of MA and PhD programs. avoid at all costs going to any program that is unfunded. consider offers without funding to be really nice rejections, not real options. it's better to wait and reapply the following year than to start an MA program that you pay for yourself. beyond simply hurting your wallet, when you apply for PhD programs and your CV doesn't explain that you were either a teaching assistant, research assistant, or on fellowship during your MA, they'll know you paid out of pocket, and they'll in all likelihood judge you negatively for it. academia is a very hierarchical system, and if no one is going to give you money for an MA, few will be willing to give you money for a PhD, or a national grant, etc.

while i know countless people in history programs that didn't do history BAs (lawyers, "area studies" people, math students!), many programs will ask/insist that at least one of your LORs comes from a historian. since you've only had one history class, and since LORs matter a lot, you should go back to that professor, explain now that you're interested in grad school, and seek his/her advice all throughout your application process. don't ask for the LOR now, just ask him/her about programs, professors they know, if they'll read your statement of purpose, etc. really work on cultivating that one relationship you have right now so that this professor can write you as strong an LOR as possible.

for your other LORs, they need to attest to your ability and potential as a researcher, so seek out profs that have seen you perform some type of research. if no one is coming to mind that fits this bill, find the two academics that know (and like) your class work the best. also start talking to them now about history grad school to demonstrate that you're serious about it. tell them about what you're thinking of working on. show them you're interested in research, so they can at the very least write that into your LOR. this is strictly inferior to an LOR from someone that has actually seen you perform research or read the end result of research, but if it's your only option, work it as much as you can. it's also best to get your LORs from academics that do research themselves. a political scientist that publishes frequently on new research is better than one that works in a thinktank or advises on policy.

it's too late to do anything about your GPA now (which you know) and the GRE doesn't matter as much as we all think it does (break 600 on the verbal, don't embarrass yourself on the math, and that's pretty much where the score ceases to be a factor). spend this time talking to your LOR writers, working on your statement of purpose (get as many professors to read/edit it as possible), and preparing your WRITING SAMPLE.

really, really, really work on your writing sample. this is where you'll demonstrate to adcoms that, even though you don't have a history degree or many history classes, you CAN do history. your writing sample should be a historical research paper that uses primary sources. if you have a terrible research paper but an amazing class term paper, the research paper is still better. rewrite it until it isn't terrible (with the help of that history prof you want an LOR from). if you don't have any historical research papers yet, write one this summer. ask the history prof if he/she will informally supervise you and guide you through the paper, explaining that it's for your grad applications. ask your other LOR writers (if they're poli sci or econ profs) if they'll also look it over, but get the most input and guidance from a historian. THAT (and writing the SOP) is where you should devote your attention, not the GRE or a way to explain your GPA.

Edited May 22, 2011 by StrangeLight

[crazedandinfused]

Ok! Great thanks to everyone who has responded. I really needed some guidance as to how to best approach this. What I'll probably do is apply to MA programs at schools where I'm a long shot, and apply to PhD programs at schools where I have a better chance.......

Strangelight, thank you for your comment regarding how it would be perceived if were to pay for an MA out of pocket. Those are exactly the sort of inside-baseball tips that I need.

To anyone that may be a 19th century US historian:

I've been trying to hone in on a topic that will make for a paper which is original and substantive, but finding a gap in the historiography has been really difficult. If anyone has any tips about recent trends in antebellum history (particularly cultural history and it's relation to the economic changes of the time) I would REALLY appreciate some help. I'm interested in the way in which immigrants and freedmen (basically the people who were left out of Chants Democratic) saw their role in economic changes, and how shifting perceptions of status and class were represented in expressive culture. The eternal problem is that the groups I want to study are under-represented in the culture of the time. I've thought about using popular song but I haven't had much luck finding anything....... Am I overreaching by trying to write a innovative paper? This is pretty much exactly why I need to enroll in a history program!!!!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[TMP]

Ok! Great thanks to everyone who has responded. I really needed some guidance as to how to best approach this. What I'll probably do is apply to MA programs at schools where I'm a long shot, and apply to PhD programs at schools where I have a better chance.......

Strangelight, thank you for your comment regarding how it would be perceived if were to pay for an MA out of pocket. Those are exactly the sort of inside-baseball tips that I need.

To anyone that may be a 19th century US historian:

I've been trying to hone in on a topic that will make for a paper which is original and substantive, but finding a gap in the historiography has been really difficult. If anyone has any tips about recent trends in antebellum history (particularly cultural history and it's relation to the economic changes of the time) I would REALLY appreciate some help. I'm interested in the way in which immigrants and freedmen (basically the people who were left out of Chants Democratic) saw their role in economic changes, and how shifting perceptions of status and class were represented in expressive culture. The eternal problem is that the groups I want to study are under-represented in the culture of the time. I've thought about using popular song but I haven't had much luck finding anything....... Am I overreaching by trying to write a innovative paper? This is pretty much exactly why I need to enroll in a history program!!!!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Just make sure that whatever MA programs you get in offers SOME kind of funding opportunities, like a summer grant for research that you can throw on your CV for PhD. Everyone knows that MA students have to pay out of their pockets one way or another.

Do you or anyone you know have access to online journals? There is usually a "state of the field" article every now and then so you will need to do some searching to see what is going on in relevant journals. In my field, the best way to track trends, as it seems as of late, is to pay attention to edited books on specific issue, which contain articles by various contributors. These articles, usually, are the basis for their future research. The articles themselves ask critical questions, which opens up avenues for others to explore. I actually like these books better than journals because articles are tied to one central theme/problem/question and makes it easier to compare views and they're published at the same time, with the latest research available (as opposed to comparing journal articles on similar topics published at various times, with the most recent ones being much more sophisticated than the earlier ones).

[crazedandinfused]

Your point about MA funding is really useful.

I have read an anthology from 2005 which directly addresses the my topic of interest and describes it as essentially a wide open field. So I have an idea of where I want to go, I guess I'm just grappling with how big a subject I should tackle. I don't want to try to tackle a dissertation sized subject in an article, but I also want to say something important. Parsimony can be so elusive.

Just make sure that whatever MA programs you get in offers SOME kind of funding opportunities, like a summer grant for research that you can throw on your CV for PhD. Everyone knows that MA students have to pay out of their pockets one way or another.

Do you or anyone you know have access to online journals? There is usually a "state of the field" article every now and then so you will need to do some searching to see what is going on in relevant journals. In my field, the best way to track trends, as it seems as of late, is to pay attention to edited books on specific issue, which contain articles by various contributors. These articles, usually, are the basis for their future research. The articles themselves ask critical questions, which opens up avenues for others to explore. I actually like these books better than journals because articles are tied to one central theme/problem/question and makes it easier to compare views and they're published at the same time, with the latest research available (as opposed to comparing journal articles on similar topics published at various times, with the most recent ones being much more sophisticated than the earlier ones).

Edited May 22, 2011 by crazedandinfused

[qbtacoma]

Ok! Great thanks to everyone who has responded. I really needed some guidance as to how to best approach this. What I'll probably do is apply to MA programs at schools where I'm a long shot, and apply to PhD programs at schools where I have a better chance.......

Strangelight, thank you for your comment regarding how it would be perceived if were to pay for an MA out of pocket. Those are exactly the sort of inside-baseball tips that I need.

To anyone that may be a 19th century US historian:

I've been trying to hone in on a topic that will make for a paper which is original and substantive, but finding a gap in the historiography has been really difficult. If anyone has any tips about recent trends in antebellum history (particularly cultural history and it's relation to the economic changes of the time) I would REALLY appreciate some help. I'm interested in the way in which immigrants and freedmen (basically the people who were left out of Chants Democratic) saw their role in economic changes, and how shifting perceptions of status and class were represented in expressive culture. The eternal problem is that the groups I want to study are under-represented in the culture of the time. I've thought about using popular song but I haven't had much luck finding anything....... Am I overreaching by trying to write a innovative paper? This is pretty much exactly why I need to enroll in a history program!!!!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I've said this elsewhere, but the same advice applies here: go local. Unless you are in, like, Philadelphia, it is very likely that your local area will be understudied. Often local libraries or government agencies will have collections of old newspapers, city council meeting minutes, diaries, etc. I think it would be somewhat easier to find scholarship gaps by identifing a group of primary sources or an event, then checking the secondary literature to see how much work has been done, rather than divining the gap by reading secondary literature. For sure take tickle's advice on reading the literature too.

[crazedandinfused]

I've said this elsewhere, but the same advice applies here: go local. Unless you are in, like, Philadelphia, it is very likely that your local area will be understudied. Often local libraries or government agencies will have collections of old newspapers, city council meeting minutes, diaries, etc. I think it would be somewhat easier to find scholarship gaps by identifing a group of primary sources or an event, then checking the secondary literature to see how much work has been done, rather than divining the gap by reading secondary literature. For sure take tickle's advice on reading the literature too.

Ok, great thanks. I think I'm on to something. I had really been trying to write a dissertation when all I need (I THINK) is an article which shows that I can use primary sources to address a historical question/thesis. Am I correct in thinking this?

Also, if anyone has any tips on getting LORs without irritating professors I would really appreciate it. I feel like every time I've gotten a letter I was pulling teeth. Was that just professorial crankiness?

Edited May 25, 2011 by crazedandinfused

[StrangeLight]

it's part of a professor's job to write LORs. if they're cranky, it could just be their personality. or you might not be giving them everything they need. are you giving them copies of your transcript, a few old papers from their past classes (so they remember you), your SOP, your writing sample? they should get all of that information at some point after they agree to write the letter so they can actually say something specific. vague LORs are the kiss of death.

if you really do have to pull teeth to get them to agree to write the letter, it's probably because they don't want to write one for you. ask them if they can write you a STRONG LOR. if they say no, thank them and ask someone else.

[modern]

You should not limit your PhD applications to places where "you have a shot" if it means not applying to the best / most competitive schools. While you should apply to the broadest range of programs that you can, you should also aim as high as you can. If your research interests and proposals have a great fit with those of faculty at places like Harvard, Yale or Stanford and your application is stromng overall, you might beat supposedly stronger candidates (as in having better grades or a more narrowly historical formation), and they might pick you while less reputable places do not.

While I understand the worry about "not getting in", I also agree with those that advice you not to pay for an MA, and most MA terminal programs require you to do so. In some cases, also, you can apply for the PhD but they might offer you a spot for the MA, funded or, more usually, unfunded. Ask.

[Iknownothing]

I would disagree slightly with StrangeLight's argument that a PhD program won't take you seriously if you don't get a funded MA. While I too would generally advise against going into debt, I did my MA unfunded (for several complicated, long-winded reasons) and it wasn't too bad financially since I relied on Pell Grants for my undergrad.

Long story short, I was accepted into 5 different PhD programs - including two top tier schools. During all of my visits, professors told me over and over that my determination and dedication to getting my MA was a very real factor in all of my acceptances.

[crazedandinfused]

You should not limit your PhD applications to places where "you have a shot" if it means not applying to the best / most competitive schools. While you should apply to the broadest range of programs that you can, you should also aim as high as you can. If your research interests and proposals have a great fit with those of faculty at places like Harvard, Yale or Stanford and your application is stromng overall, you might beat supposedly stronger candidates (as in having better grades or a more narrowly historical formation), and they might pick you while less reputable places do not.

While I understand the worry about "not getting in", I also agree with those that advice you not to pay for an MA, and most MA terminal programs require you to do so. In some cases, also, you can apply for the PhD but they might offer you a spot for the MA, funded or, more usually, unfunded. Ask.

Very interesting. I would love to go to Yale and I think my interests do really fit in there. I guess I have yet another question about "aligned research interests". I assume that there is some latitude; that if a professor has published on, say, 19th century intellectual history, then he or she would be willing to work on the cultural dynamics/modes of expression of black abolitionist thought... Obviously the closer the fit the better, but am I correct in my assumption that they will crawl out of their comfort zones a little?

(Thanks to everyone for their help. It's really great to finally know what I want to do with my career, and any advice to guide me through the complicated process of applying is much appreciated.)

Edited May 26, 2011 by crazedandinfused

[modern]

Very interesting. I would love to go to Yale and I think my interests do really fit in there. I guess I have yet another question about "aligned research interests". I assume that there is some latitude; that if a professor has published on, say, 19th century intellectual history, then he or she would be willing to work on the cultural dynamics/modes of expression of black abolitionist thought... Obviously the closer the fit the better, but am I correct in my assumption that they will crawl out of their comfort zones a little?

(Thanks to everyone for their help. It's really great to finally know what I want to do with my career, and any advice to guide me through the complicated process of applying is much appreciated.)

Exactly. The "fit" doesn't have to be perfect and there are many ways to look at it. It can be region and period, but also theme or methodological approach. A historian of gender in Eighteenth Century Africa wouldmost likely be interested in a good application about gender in Nineteenth Century Africa, or in issues not related to gender in Eighteenth Century Africa. I got accepted to several programs and in none of them is there an historian working on the particular region I want to work, but some were urban historians of the field (Latin America), others were into modernization processes in Twentieth Century Latin America, environmnetal stuff, etc. and others probably just liked what I sent on the application, or what the letters of recommendation said (and who sent them) and felt good chemistry with me when we met some months before the application process.

The perfect secenario is one where all these factors and the grades and test scores work together for you. Of course, the closer fit the better, but you will rarely find someone doing exactly what you want to do. It's not a bad idea to talk (or write) to some of the potential advisers in advance, so you'll know if they are interested. And mentioning them, and why you'd like to work with them, in you Statement of Purpose.

[crazedandinfused]

I'm now thinking about taking a full semester of undergraduate history classes in the fall as a way to boost my application. I definitely want to take the undergrad writing seminar in order to fine-tune my writing sample and level the playing field somewhat with applicants who have a BA in history. Would this help? Or would taking undergraduate classes once I already have an advanced degree look bad or like I was trying too hard? Is there even such a thing as trying too hard?

[TMP]

Graduate courses in history are much better. They'll show that you CAN do graduate-level work. We really do a bit more reading than what our syllabus says.

[natsteel]

On "fit," it is not something that has to be an exact match. The period and subfield should be relatively similar or complementary. For example, I do colonial U.S. political culture and my new advisor does early national U.S. political culture. Then again, each professor will have a different notion of "fit."

And, I agree with ticklemepink. If you want to take classes, take a graduate seminar or two. Don't waste your time with undergraduate classes if you already have an advanced degree. A graduate school in my city will allow you to take 1 or 2 classes without being matriculated. I doubt that it is a unique policy. Check nearby schools with graduate programs to see if you can take (not just audit) a graduate-level seminar.

And, just for the record, I second (or third or fourth) the warnings against taking out too much debt for an MA and applying widely.