GRE scores/Application strength

[dhpjectory]

Naturally, as soon as I posted my bit about Duke, I wandered around and discovered something even more interesting... They report a LOT of statistics for their entering grad students (and have the information as far back as 2000). Here's the one for their grad school in general (http://gradschool.du...about/stats.php) and here's the one for religion in particular (http://gradschool.du...cs/admitrel.htm). What you'll notice is that the 760 that I found to be a staggering statistic was, in fact, just an anomaly. Their real average is in the low 700s, a much more reasonable number. The GRE is all messed up, though, since the 95th percentile for math is at 800 while it's at 670 for verbal... but that's topic entirely, I suppose...

Unfortunately, from what I know of admissions committees (my wife sits on one for a grad dept in a different discipline) and despite ETS' admonishment to the practice, there really is a cut-off. Even if it's not a hard and fast rule, in practice, there is one. So, the tired phrase follows that a good score won't guarantee admittance, but a bad score will preclude it.

The only personal issue I have with this aspect of the process is that unless the student makes an effort to get to know the faculty, the faculty do not frequently make much of an effort to get to know the prospective students. Especially for people on a waiting list (as was my experience in 2000-2001 with Duke), it surprises me that more effort isn't made to get to know the students and gauge their "fit" and likelihood for success based on direct conversation with the student as opposed to the admissions committee meetings with only a few papers and numbers.

I would like to let you know that GRE scores generally only matter when you are up against a person with a similarly great fit. At my current institution, the real minimum is 600 verbal. At a school to which I was just accepted (another top school, which was truly a blessing), I was told by faculty who just came from there that the general low for verbal is about 650. But nothing, NOTHING, will matter more than fit. It is important to remember that in these processes, there are human beings making decisions about other human beings (and plenty of people in the study of religion generally aren't jerks). Try as much as humanly possible to establish yourself as someone they would want to work with not only intellectually--you need to come across as a nice person (because this is the equivalent of hiring junior-junior faculty, and they want to make sure they won't have to deal with someone mean or a bit crazy for 5-7 years). You should have recommenders whom you've tried to connect with and who will vouch for you as someone with a passion in your field (and a good temperament for the rigor ahead). Also, I can tell you that Harvard and Princeton value social justice commitments. So if your work will mean something for some community, that must be clear. There are truly nice people at these schools who simply cannot admit everyone they'd like, so they default to people they might know (either as masters students, undergrads in rare cases, or people who've really sparked their interest through email and phone conversations).

This is an ugly process, but I'd wish everyone some serenity and success throughout. I'm glad to know I'm going somewhere.

[plo]

When I met with a graduate director last year, he told me that their applicants "generally have a five or better" on the written section, but that it didn't matter that much since they get a writing sample from the students and a statement of purpose. Personally, I think ETS needs to double the length of the verbal and math sections and eliminate the analytical section altogether. It takes about half of your time at the testing center to write essays that no one really cares much about... then you have half an hour (which may be at the very end of four hours) to answer 28-30 questions which do the most to determine your destiny than almost anything else in your application. And this results in an accuracy of +- 50 points for a section (this is something that ETS officially states in their literature). I was willing to study for about a month for my GRE... I certainly would be willing to spend longer than 30 minutes to get an accurate verbal score since it matters so much!

By the way, if you look at the percentages, a lot of people score a five or better anyway (73rd percentile). So it's really and truly not all that useful to the schools, especially the very competitive programs.

Double the verbal and math? How about just get rid of the exam all together? Seriously, I would think that once one top program dropped the GRE requirement then the rest of them would follow suit. I mean, has anyone on this board ever had a faculty member explain to them WHY the test matters, rather than the simple fact that it helps dismiss a number of applicants? Either get rid of it or, as I suggested, publish the scores of one faculty member every fall.

[Satori]

Double the verbal and math? How about just get rid of the exam all together? Seriously, I would think that once one top program dropped the GRE requirement then the rest of them would follow suit. I mean, has anyone on this board ever had a faculty member explain to them WHY the test matters, rather than the simple fact that it helps dismiss a number of applicants? Either get rid of it or, as I suggested, publish the scores of one faculty member every fall.

It's basically an intelligence test... so I don't see them getting rid of it. It'd just be nice if it were more accuracte and less subject to a few lucky or unlucky guesses.

[peppermint.beatnik]

It's basically an intelligence test... so I don't see them getting rid of it. It'd just be nice if it were more accuracte and less subject to a few lucky or unlucky guesses.

So, people who write it once, and get a good score, are higher on the intelligence continuum than those who have to write it three times to get a good score?

I think that says more about test prep than innate intelligence.

Good thing you didn't post that in the psych forum!

[Satori]

So, people who write it once, and get a good score, are higher on the intelligence continuum than those who have to write it three times to get a good score?

I think that says more about test prep than innate intelligence.

Good thing you didn't post that in the psych forum!

No, that doesn't follow... it's like any other intelligence test. There's some variability in the scores, but ultimately, it's hard to raise your score above a certain mark no matter how much you prepare for any given person. This is why they say it's unlikely that you'll see an increase of over 100 points... because that would make your two scores statistically different. And that's unlikely for an individual.

There's actually a lot of literature out there about this... I'm not just guessing or making it up. The analogy and reading comp questions are perfect examples of the type of questions you'd see on traditional intelligence tests. It's no coincidence that you see the same thing on the GRE. And what is the best overall indicator of intelligence with language? Vocabulary. So that's a big component too. Sure, you can study for it. And you'll improve. But the colleges like this too since that measures intelligence + motivation... which is also a key characteristic. So it's a win-win for them.

I don't know about you, but I've taken the SAT, ACT, GRE and GMAT at various times in my career. And my scores are very close.. varying to about, well, the delta that I mentioned above for the GRE.

[plo]

So, people who write it once, and get a good score, are higher on the intelligence continuum than those who have to write it three times to get a good score?

I think that says more about test prep than innate intelligence.

Good thing you didn't post that in the psych forum!

I agree -- whatever 'intelligence' the GRE measures I'm more than happy to have in only above average amounts. The only thing I can imagine departments really respecting from those who have astronomically high scores is the sort of endurance and perseverance when asked to do absurd tasks that could, possibly, at times, under certain conditions, on alternative Mondays and Wednesdays, translate into the grit you need to get through languages/comps/a dissertation.

[mamastudent]

This looks like a good place to vent..... Venting begins:

I know some of us are naturally gifted at standardized testing. The rest of us have to take prep courses. And buy books. And make multiple attempts at getting the other-than-hard-science long reading section.

I know a lot of folks who were quite successful on the GRE with all these steps taken even after bombing the GRE first time around. So is it just a toll you have to pay? And what if you can't fork over $1000 for the course and $450 for 3 attempts? Makes me a little suspicious about who is being kept out.

Speaking of those kept out: first ever African-American woman was admitted to the Duke PhD in ethics this year.

[wcl]

Like many of us applying this year, I am wondering how strong my application is. I feel like I have at least a competitive shot, except my GRE is low. Here are my stats:

2 master's degrees in theology: 4.0 in each

Religion BA

German/Greek languages

very solid Recommendation letters

publications: 1 article in Heythrop Journal and a couple of book reviews.

GRE V: 670

Q: 640

A: TBD

Now, I also have considered at length my 'fit' with each school I am applying to. With all of this in mind, should I consider my GRE a bit under the cut for programs like UVA, Chicago, UC-Santa Barbara, Duke, Columbia and Fordham? Should I think about even trying to squeeze one more test in early December and rush it to the schools? I'm feeling very nervous, so any straight talk would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all

Hi- I would just like to say that I got a V 680 on the GRE and have so far been accepted in Religious Ethics at both University of Chicago and Emory, so I don't think that they put too much stock in the GRE. It is clearly not the strongest indicator of future academic success! If you have that strong of an application in all other areas, you will be just fine.

[anp22fab]

This looks like a good place to vent..... Venting begins:

I know some of us are naturally gifted at standardized testing. The rest of us have to take prep courses. And buy books. And make multiple attempts at getting the other-than-hard-science long reading section.

I know a lot of folks who were quite successful on the GRE with all these steps taken even after bombing the GRE first time around. So is it just a toll you have to pay? And what if you can't fork over $1000 for the course and $450 for 3 attempts? Makes me a little suspicious about who is being kept out.

Speaking of those kept out: first ever African-American woman was admitted to the Duke PhD in ethics this year.

Venting some more (thanks mama student)

The GRE has been horrible for me. I panic during these tests. I have taken it twice (with less than stellar results) but have been able to get an offer of admission for Ph.D. work and as a fellow Duke student (and African American female), I am so proud of my fellow sister who has been admitted to the Duke PhD in ethics!!!

[KSEE]

I just thought I'd throw this out there to anyone who is worried about their GRE scores:

I took the GRE twice, the first time I failed abysmally. The second time I got a 5 on the writing, 560 on the Verbal, and 630 on the Quantitative. I got into Emory's MPH program. Call me the wild card, the long-shot, whatever- but I got in, and I was crossing my fingers for any prospect at all. I hope you find this to be encouraging

[Tsuroyu]

I applied to phds this last cycle, not in religion, but in philosophy. 13 schools, 0 acceptances.

So, in preparation for trying again next time around (and it will be mostly in religious studies programs, this time), I've been talking to the chair of my current department about where I went wrong. She said some discouraging things.

For one, although I thought I could just keep my GRE score, she disagreed. I had a 640 V, 780 Q, 5.5 writing. I knew the verbal was low, although not... extremely low. I thought maybe the high quant (high, at least, for us liberal arts types) might demonstrate my analytical reasoning abilities to such an extent as to offset the low verbal. Apparently, no such luck.

One of the schools I'm looking at for next cycle (one of the few phil programs I'll apply to) is SUNY Stony Brook, where my dept chair has some friends. They tell her that they literally do not even look at applications that have lower than 700s in both. So, after having forgotten about the GRE months ago, I'm brushing up on vocabulary again, although I'm not sure I can make a gain of >60 on my verbal. So I'm pretty much terribly worried about this, myself. One big worry I have is that, even if I improve my verbal significantly, my math will drop, resulting in a lower score overall. I wonder if anyone has thoughts about that issue?

The other thing she said was, of course, fit. Since my BA is in philosophy & religion, despite my MA in philosophy, a very very sizable chunk of my coursework has been in topics at least closely related to religion. So while I had wanted to study religion from within a philosophy department, I'm told I'll make a much more attractive candidate for religious studies (which I hope is really the case). So make sure to keep your eye out for good fit!

[Satori]

Wow... with scores and academic interests similar to mine, this is interesting to read indeed!

Your 0 for 13 record makes me think that you may've applied to all the Ivys... In addition to all of the criteria mentioned so far, it sure doesn't hurt to come from an undergrad school with a big name. I've spoken wtih representatives from several departments over the years (like UVA) that enjoy getting Ivy league undergrads to the extent that they make a point of mentioning it. This is a real blood boiler for me since I went to a state school with a small group of people who all had SATs in the 1500s.... and to think that we're at a disadvantage because we didn't pay > $100,000 for our undergrad degrees is more than a little infuriating. Unfortunately, the liberal arts Ph.D. programs tend to be somewhat elitist.

If you're applying to religion, I'd say that the math probably doesn't matter much anyway and I'd go ahead and retake the test. Besides, since you already hit 780 Q, you may get that last question right and score 800. Stupid mistakes are the only real thorny part of the quant section anyway...

I applied to phds this last cycle, not in religion, but in philosophy. 13 schools, 0 acceptances.

So, in preparation for trying again next time around (and it will be mostly in religious studies programs, this time), I've been talking to the chair of my current department about where I went wrong. She said some discouraging things.

For one, although I thought I could just keep my GRE score, she disagreed. I had a 640 V, 780 Q, 5.5 writing. I knew the verbal was low, although not... extremely low. I thought maybe the high quant (high, at least, for us liberal arts types) might demonstrate my analytical reasoning abilities to such an extent as to offset the low verbal. Apparently, no such luck.

One of the schools I'm looking at for next cycle (one of the few phil programs I'll apply to) is SUNY Stony Brook, where my dept chair has some friends. They tell her that they literally do not even look at applications that have lower than 700s in both. So, after having forgotten about the GRE months ago, I'm brushing up on vocabulary again, although I'm not sure I can make a gain of >60 on my verbal. So I'm pretty much terribly worried about this, myself. One big worry I have is that, even if I improve my verbal significantly, my math will drop, resulting in a lower score overall. I wonder if anyone has thoughts about that issue?

The other thing she said was, of course, fit. Since my BA is in philosophy & religion, despite my MA in philosophy, a very very sizable chunk of my coursework has been in topics at least closely related to religion. So while I had wanted to study religion from within a philosophy department, I'm told I'll make a much more attractive candidate for religious studies (which I hope is really the case). So make sure to keep your eye out for good fit!

[peppermint.beatnik]

Just wondering if someone could provide me with the range of a competitive GRE score for Emory (GDR not divinity). Trying to decide if I will apply.

[coffeekid]

Tsuroyu,

I had a similar situation first time around in terms of phil/relst applications and GRE scores (Really high math, decently above average verbal). Got rejected from all six philosophy PhDs and my consolation prize was a decent religion masters at vandy where I can at least take courses in the philosophy grad dept in the meantime.

The only thing I have to add is to not worry about your math score going down. I don't doubt that you heard the "both scores need to be above 700" about SUNY, but I've spoken to faculty on the admissions committee at Vanderbilt and Villanova who said that verbal needs to be high, but they don't even look at the math. I'm guessing this is true at most continental philosophy and relst programs.

I don't think this is anything new to you. Assuming that you're applying to continental programs, I would focus as much of your time on verbal as possible (98%?). Barring a focus on logic, I think phil/relst programs are looking to see that you are capable of calculating your own GPA without having to ask the registrar. Not exactly sure where this line gets drawn, but I really doubt it is as high as 700 for most places. In fact, I know of at least a handful of people in well-known programs (Vanderbilt, Loyola Chicago, Villanova) who had math scores sub 650, even in the 500s. Of course, this is not to say aim low for math.

I wish you a 750 in both!

[GRE stings]

It's basically an intelligence test... so I don't see them getting rid of it. It'd just be nice if it were more accuracte and less subject to a few lucky or unlucky guesses.

First and foremost, GRE is NOT an intelligence test. If that was true, people wouldn't have "improved" with more practice for two months, or coaching classes would have been of no use. What can drastically affect your score is your state of mind while giving the test, especially on verbal. It is impossible to keep track of RC or the sentence if you are very anxious. I got anxious during Verbal and got a 450 but was very relaxed and comfortable during Quant and got a 790. Though I am taking it again, but it is the most unpredictable test I have ever come across. Nevertheless, I still dont fully understand "What" they measure.. :-)

[redreverend]

Here is the average GRE scores in order from highest to lowest of these 20 schools according to the new NRC 2010 rankings:

1-3 Duke University Religion 718.0

1-3 Harvard University The Study of Religion 717.0

3-5 Yale University Religious Studies 709.0

1-9 Brown University Religious Studies 707.0

4-7 Fordham University Theology 704.0

1-10 Syracuse University Religion 701.0

5-8 University of Chicago Divinity 700.0

5-9 University of Notre Dame Theology 699.0

9-11 Boston University Religious Studies 680.0

9-15 Columbia University in the City of New York Religion 675.0

10-14 Boston College Theology 673.0

8-19 Indiana University-Bloomington Religious Studies 673.0

11-15 Southern Methodist University Religious Studies 671.0

12-17 Princeton University Religion 666.0

11-19 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Religious Studies 664.0

12-21 Baylor University Religion 658.0

16-19 Emory University Graduate Division of Religion 658.0

9-25 Stanford University Religious Studies 657.0

16-20 Vanderbilt University Religion 656.0

18-22 University of Virginia-Main Campus Religious Studies 646.0

These may or may not be good indicators of the range you need to be in to get accepted. These are just averages, so some people scored higher and some scored lower at each school.

I can tell you for Fordham at least, I have heard professors say around 710-720 is what they look for

http://graduate-school.phds.org/rankings/religion/rank/______________v__M____________________________vv______vv_vvvP___U