MS in Biostatistics/Statistics Chances without Undergrad Major

[Hanyuye]

Hi all,

I've been reading the forums here for the past two months. I graduated from a CUNY college with a BA in English Literature. However, my whole life revolved around science and math until college ( unfortunately, I went to the wrong college). Two math bee championships,City Math Olympiad finalist, etc.

Further on, I took AP Calculus in High School, Intermediate Calculus 2, and Graph Theory in college. I got A- in all of them. As of statistics, I only took Applied Statistics 201, got a B+ on that.

I'm going to Hunter College this fall to enroll in Calculus 3, Math Proof, and Matrix Algebra. ( I want to take Linear Algebra also, but is Calculus is a FUNDAMENTAL part of Linear and Matrix Algebra?) Could I get a good grade, I'm damn good at Math again, without remembering all of my calculus?

So then with those courses done by Christmas, I'm going to apply for MS in Statistics/Biostatistics at many schools. Schools including Mcgill, U of T, Johns Hopkins, BU, UNC Chapel Hill, Duke, UCLA, UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UC, and a lot of 'safety' colleges.

And in the spring, I will take Differential Equations, Vector Analysis, Discrete Probability, and Data Analysis.

I'm asking if anybody was in a similar situation or has sincere advice about my chances of getting into a MS program without completing the major or actually graduating with the Undergrad degree.

[abbasfarnas]

I know the pain of going to the wrong major and trying to correct the mistake. I also know the pain of having to wait days & days for someone to post their opinion about your chances (As you can clearly see from my 0 replies thread that I keep checking on). That's why I will try to answer you as best as I can

Getting into masters is easier than Phd's, since you're paying for the education. You can probably get into one of the average schools after completing a good number of courses. However, you want to apply after taking only those 3 courses in the fall?? Furthermore you have listed schools like Berkeley, Toronto, Mcgil etc. These schools are very selective. I'm sorry but there's just no way any of these will accept you in your current condition. I'm just letting you know so you don't waste money on application fees. If you really want a realistic chance, take at least one extra year filled with relevant courses and apply to a whole bunch of safety schools.

I really hope someone more knowledgeable than me can come here and help you.

[ktel]

Most Master's programs in Canada are funded. And at U of T unless it's classified as a self-funded program you don't even get in without funding.

[Hanyuye]

I know the pain of going to the wrong major and trying to correct the mistake. I also know the pain of having to wait days & days for someone to post their opinion about your chances (As you can clearly see from my 0 replies thread that I keep checking on). That's why I will try to answer you as best as I can

Getting into masters is easier than Phd's, since you're paying for the education. You can probably get into one of the average schools after completing a good number of courses. However, you want to apply after taking only those 3 courses in the fall?? Furthermore you have listed schools like Berkeley, Toronto, Mcgil etc. These schools are very selective. I'm sorry but there's just no way any of these will accept you in your current condition. I'm just letting you know so you don't waste money on application fees. If you really want a realistic chance, take at least one extra year filled with relevant courses and apply to a whole bunch of safety schools.

I really hope someone more knowledgeable than me can come here and help you.

That pain is excruciating and has an everlasting affliction.

Well, it's 3 plus the 3 I had from my previous college. So it's 6 total. And I'm hoping they will consider my courses in the spring semester. Or maybe as in U of T and Mcgill, I can apply for the Winter semester after taking Spring 2012 courses. That way I'd have 10 or so courses under my belt.

As I said, I will apply for safety schools. My main goal is McGill/JH, but of course I can settle for second-tier schools as long they have a reputable biostats department.

Also, from my reading of the forums; it seems like a MS in Biostats/Stats is very limited in the career-ladder. I wouldn't mind entering a MS program, work a few years, then go back for a PH.D. But seems like EVERYONE is saying why not enter the Ph.D program at first..

More to update

[kash]

That pain is excruciating and has an everlasting affliction.

Well, it's 3 plus the 3 I had from my previous college. So it's 6 total. And I'm hoping they will consider my courses in the spring semester. Or maybe as in U of T and Mcgill, I can apply for the Winter semester after taking Spring 2012 courses. That way I'd have 10 or so courses under my belt.

As I said, I will apply for safety schools. My main goal is McGill/JH, but of course I can settle for second-tier schools as long they have a reputable biostats department.

Also, from my reading of the forums; it seems like a MS in Biostats/Stats is very limited in the career-ladder. I wouldn't mind entering a MS program, work a few years, then go back for a PH.D. But seems like EVERYONE is saying why not enter the Ph.D program at first..

More to update

For University of Toronto, which is a very competitive program especially for international students, they posted their recommended background for their MS statistics program. Its safe to say you don't even come halfway to meeting their requirements. As for the other top programs you mention such as Berkeley (and by UC do you mean University of Chicago), what you are missing are courses in probability (calculus based not discrete) and statistics, specifically mathematical statistics before you apply. Matrix algebra is not linear algebra and the schools know that as well so keep that in mind. As to your question why not enter the PhD program first, well because you dont have the background right now to enter a good PhD program, acquiring an MS can help your profile when you are applying to PhD programs.

Here is the link for the UToronto recommended profile.

http://www.utstat.ut....php?pageid=195

Edited June 30, 2011 by kash

[Hanyuye]

For University of Toronto, which is a very competitive program especially for international students, they posted their recommended background for their MS statistics program. Its safe to say you don't even come halfway to meeting their requirements. As for the other top programs you mention such as Berkeley (and by UC do you mean University of Chicago), what you are missing are courses in probability (calculus based not discrete) and statistics, specifically mathematical statistics before you apply. Matrix algebra is not linear algebra and the schools know that as well so keep that in mind. As to your question why not enter the PhD program first, well because you dont have the background right now to enter a good PhD program, acquiring an MS can help your profile when you are applying to PhD programs.

Here is the link for the UToronto recommended profile.

http://www.utstat.ut....php?pageid=195

Thanks for the link!

I'm not going to apply to the top 10 schools anymore. As of this semester, I'll also be taking linear algebra. I'm positive applying for the MS is better than PHD obviously. No wasted effort and application fees there. I will apply to second-tier schools in case I get fortunate to start an MS and the school will demand I take more math courses before enrollment. I'll retake the GRE as I got a 750 in Q, but did poorly in Verbal. I'm sure I can get a better score now.

[Matt W]

Hi all,

I've been reading the forums here for the past two months. I graduated from a CUNY college with a BA in English Literature. However, my whole life revolved around science and math until college ( unfortunately, I went to the wrong college). Two math bee championships,City Math Olympiad finalist, etc.

Further on, I took AP Calculus in High School, Intermediate Calculus 2, and Graph Theory in college. I got A- in all of them. As of statistics, I only took Applied Statistics 201, got a B+ on that.

I'm going to Hunter College this fall to enroll in Calculus 3, Math Proof, and Matrix Algebra. ( I want to take Linear Algebra also, but is Calculus is a FUNDAMENTAL part of Linear and Matrix Algebra?) Could I get a good grade, I'm damn good at Math again, without remembering all of my calculus?

So then with those courses done by Christmas, I'm going to apply for MS in Statistics/Biostatistics at many schools. Schools including Mcgill, U of T, Johns Hopkins, BU, UNC Chapel Hill, Duke, UCLA, UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UC, and a lot of 'safety' colleges.

And in the spring, I will take Differential Equations, Vector Analysis, Discrete Probability, and Data Analysis.

I'm asking if anybody was in a similar situation or has sincere advice about my chances of getting into a MS program without completing the major or actually graduating with the Undergrad degree.

Hi Hanyuye,

A few people have mentioned this, but I wanted to stress it again: the US is not the same as Canada. Masters degrees are usually seen as remedial degrees or for people changing fields in the US, and are generally unfunded. This is not the case in Canada. Schools won't admit you into a PhD program without a masters degree in Canada, and masters degrees are fully funded. Being accepted to a masters degree program in Canada is as difficult as being admitted to a PhD program in the US.

Also, you don't need Calculus for linear algebra. They just stick it as a requirement to ensure mathematical maturity. Differential equations and vector analysis probably aren't too important for statistics. If possible, I would recommend taking some of mathematical statistics, probability theory, or real analysis instead.

Good Luck,

Matt

[Hanyuye]

Hi Hanyuye,

A few people have mentioned this, but I wanted to stress it again: the US is not the same as Canada. Masters degrees are usually seen as remedial degrees or for people changing fields in the US, and are generally unfunded. This is not the case in Canada. Schools won't admit you into a PhD program without a masters degree in Canada, and masters degrees are fully funded. Being accepted to a masters degree program in Canada is as difficult as being admitted to a PhD program in the US.

Also, you don't need Calculus for linear algebra. They just stick it as a requirement to ensure mathematical maturity. Differential equations and vector analysis probably aren't too important for statistics. If possible, I would recommend taking some of mathematical statistics, probability theory, or real analysis instead.

Good Luck,

Matt

Thank you very much Matt!

That info is invaluable. The courses that I"m taking is being taken ONLY because it fits my work schedule. In fact, I had to beg my boss to switch to the evening shift to take the 3-4 math courses. The sad thing is, the college does have mathematical statistics, probability theory, and real analysis BUT the those class' times are EXACTLY in the 2 hour time slot that encompasses both shifts at work. So I'm hoping I can apply for the winter session at some Canadian colleges during the Spring and take those courses. I won't shoot for a PHD, like a said, waste of time in my situation.

[yg7s7]

Thank you very much Matt!

That info is invaluable. The courses that I"m taking is being taken ONLY because it fits my work schedule. In fact, I had to beg my boss to switch to the evening shift to take the 3-4 math courses. The sad thing is, the college does have mathematical statistics, probability theory, and real analysis BUT the those class' times are EXACTLY in the 2 hour time slot that encompasses both shifts at work. So I'm hoping I can apply for the winter session at some Canadian colleges during the Spring and take those courses. I won't shoot for a PHD, like a said, waste of time in my situation.

I have a question for Hanyuye. Sorry for the stupid question, but what is your status at Hunter? Are you an undergrad student with a major? If not, what is it? I ask this because I'm in a same boat and planning to do something similar.

[Hanyuye]

I have a question for Hanyuye. Sorry for the stupid question, but what is your status at Hunter? Are you an undergrad student with a major? If not, what is it? I ask this because I'm in a same boat and planning to do something similar.

HI YG7, I'm a graduate from Baruch College and taking undergrad at Hunter. I'm an upper junior status at Hunter. I declared my major in STatistics. Right now , it's not going so good because Hunter notified me of a missing immunization form!! At the last second!! So far, Matrix Algebra, and Math Proof works are filled; I'm only registered for Calc 3 right now, and Linear Algebra is still open. I'm going to give them my immunization form Monday morning. Hopefully, it gets settled by the same night. If not, I'll call the professors/registrar's office to get permission from them.

[yg7s7]

HI YG7, I'm a graduate from Baruch College and taking undergrad at Hunter. I'm an upper junior status at Hunter. I declared my major in STatistics. Right now , it's not going so good because Hunter notified me of a missing immunization form!! At the last second!! So far, Matrix Algebra, and Math Proof works are filled; I'm only registered for Calc 3 right now, and Linear Algebra is still open. I'm going to give them my immunization form Monday morning. Hopefully, it gets settled by the same night. If not, I'll call the professors/registrar's office to get permission from them.

Ahh so I guess it's a second Bachelor's degree? Anyway good luck with your studies!

[Hanyuye]

And yourself yg7? What progarms are you interested in exactly?

[yg7s7]

I'm interested in getting M.S in Statistics. My undergrad major wasn't in Statistics and my GPA is very bad so I'm thinking about taking a couple of classes at some local college as a non-degree student while working full-time, if that's a good idea. I also think this way I will find out if I'm truly into Statistics.

[Hanyuye]

BUMP!

So, another question for you accepted and experienced folks.

How much more competitive is it applying as an undergrad for a PHD program in Biostatistics/Statistics?

I'm looking at the CMU dual PHD/MS program. ( I really want to apply for these programs, any school in Biostatistics/Statistics with the dual program; let me know!)

I emailed a few grad advisors, CMU replied to me stating that if someone is rejected for the PHD program, they are not considered for the MS program. Also, any programs with the dual PHD/MS and where the application for the PHD is rejected and considered for the MS.

[Hanyuye]

Anyone? Also, would anyone know the reputation of UIC Biostatistics MS Program? I'm applying there as a safety school.

[Bruin123]

BUMP!

So, another question for you accepted and experienced folks.

How much more competitive is it applying as an undergrad for a PHD program in Biostatistics/Statistics?

I'm looking at the CMU dual PHD/MS program. ( I really want to apply for these programs, any school in Biostatistics/Statistics with the dual program; let me know!)

I emailed a few grad advisors, CMU replied to me stating that if someone is rejected for the PHD program, they are not considered for the MS program. Also, any programs with the dual PHD/MS and where the application for the PHD is rejected and considered for the MS.

Personally, I don't know much about CMU's program, but other programs have a tendency to vary about how they do their admissions. I know for a fact that at UCLA, for example, the committee may accept students into the MS program even though they applied to the PhD program because they need further training. I have also heard of other schools doing the same. You can still go into a PhD program with an MS; in fact many institutions accept a number of PhD students from their MS programs. And for Biostats, there are plenty of MS programs that will provide TA/RA positions that can cover the cost of tuition plus some $ on the side, and then you can save your guaranteed funding from a PhD program for your later years of education.

The competition to get accepted to a PhD program in Biostatistics also varies by institution, with higher caliber programs and more famous institutions receiving more applications. From my professors who have served on admissions committees, a strong math and applied background is important, but strong oral and written communication skills are crucial as well. You can definitely boost your chances of acceptance if you do well on the Verbal and Analytical Writing GRE and construct strong supporting essays for your application. Majoring in math is great and all, but not required.

[outliers1]

Hi Hanyuye,

just joined, this is actually my first post.

just wanna say that i really admire your determination. I also want to get in MSc Biostats / Stats and I’m actually working in a biostats company (very junior position and company name to be kept nameless) in Canada.

My undergrad major was in Microbiology and Economics. I took some econ courses which were math related, but most admissions would not consider those. Now I am going back to school to take some undergrad math courses, hopefully they will waive me for some of the pre-requisite courses and let me take the senior courses because if I get a choice, I don't want to start from year 1 again. It will cost me a lot of time and a fortune, and I'm working full time now.

I don’t know if I am as determined as you are, but I’m glad to hear from someone in a similar situation, and see that I am not alone.

[Hanyuye]

Hi Hanyuye,

just joined, this is actually my first post.

just wanna say that i really admire your determination. I also want to get in MSc Biostats / Stats and I’m actually working in a biostats company (very junior position and company name to be kept nameless) in Canada.

My undergrad major was in Microbiology and Economics. I took some econ courses which were math related, but most admissions would not consider those. Now I am going back to school to take some undergrad math courses, hopefully they will waive me for some of the pre-requisite courses and let me take the senior courses because if I get a choice, I don't want to start from year 1 again. It will cost me a lot of time and a fortune, and I'm working full time now.

I don’t know if I am as determined as you are, but I’m glad to hear from someone in a similar situation, and see that I am not alone.

Thank You Outliers, there are many of us on the same path; just seems like this path is shrouded in fog and we can not see each other.

So I believe you aren't taking any math courses at this moment? Hoping to start the undergrad courses in the spring?

How is working in Biostatistics as a junior? I'm guessing you have Ph.D managers telling you to pursue an MS/Ph.D for advancement? Or is this based on your interests alone?

[outliers1]

I am not taking any courses now, but I have enrolled in Spring at a local uni for a couple courses. If I take 2 courses every semester, I might get just enough credits to submit a MS application within a year, (granted that I performed well in these courses) So I guess you are one year ahead of me.

As a junior, I am learning it slowly. The reason I’m trying to pursue the MS is because I want to do more interesting things. Currently, the work is not the most exciting or intellectually stimulating, and it seems that I am not getting anywhere w/o a MS degree.

Anyways, good luck with your applications. With that determination you displayed, I'm sure you will end up at a good program