Example of work from Yale's Art Program, Quesiton

[TheStranger]

I am very open minded but I would appreciate how one can decipher the importance of such work as the two below I found on the Yale Art website. I want to be enlightened...I am not here to be sarcastic. I am genuinely interested in knowing why this "kind of work" is being produced in Yale's MFA program...a school I am very interested in. Conceptualization? Outsider Art? Etc. I thought this question was most appropriate to be asked here where I would not receive purely sarcastic remarks but remarks which lends to experience in the art world, the higher art education system and contemporary art. I understand Yale is number 1 for their MFA Drawing & Painting program. I understand the top schools in the country generally are very much geared towards conceptual art or art which takes risks and attempts to be Avant-garde. I actually have done enough research to abandon my observed realism approach for a very fresh and much more conceptual and 'interesting' approach I feel certain is appropriate for such conceptual lenses these schools view portfolio submissions with. I feel like realism in schools like Yale seem to be in an extreme minority form my observations (it feels like 10%-20%!). While I love the work I am doing now, I do feel like my love for the observed figure will return once I am in an MFA program and I hope to take my adventurous approaches in my art now to figurative painting later. I suppose the artist below is using figurative art and approaching it in a child-like manner for some kind of statement...but I would imagine the statement would be more than that...seeing how that idea has been done many times before.

My ultimate goal/dream is to get into a top art school (Yale, RISD or Columbia). Part of it is to move from the west coast to the east coast and get a totally different take on things and be in or near New York. My backup schools so far include USC and maybe Hunter. My current belief on my art is that I want it to cross between several genres (drawing, painting, sculpture, digital, installation), be intellectually and conceptually inspired yet retain a good deal of aesthetic value (I do not like conceptual art with a great idea and good essay but a poor visual).

Yale MFA 2nd year student work

[truthbetold]

Well, I will try to offer a little bit of background on "this kind of work":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Painting

http://www.artinamericamagazine.com/features/provisional-painting-raphael-rubinstein/

As far as why it is currently being produced, in a grad program or otherwise, I am not so sure ....A matter of taste, I suppose.

Bad painting, like realism, is also in a minority of 10-20% at Yale, from what I've observed. The only thing that has a majority is abstraction, a giant category which could be broken into further categorie. So, most programs are very diverse -- intentionally.

The idea of Yale being #1 is narrow. And besides, Yale probably shouldn't be at the top of the list if you want to work in several genres. Their discussions are generally medium specific (and those departmental).

I wouldn't consider USC a back up school. it is equally difficult to get into as Yale or Columbia -- about 2-3%.

Hunter is a good backup school, taking about 10% of applicants.

[TheStranger]

Well, I will try to offer a little bit of background on "this kind of work":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Painting

http://www.artinamer...ael-rubinstein/

As far as why it is currently being produced, in a grad program or otherwise, I am not so sure ....A matter of taste, I suppose.

Bad painting, like realism, is also in a minority of 10-20% at Yale, from what I've observed. The only thing that has a majority is abstraction, a giant category which could be broken into further categorie. So, most programs are very diverse -- intentionally.

The idea of Yale being #1 is narrow. And besides, Yale probably shouldn't be at the top of the list if you want to work in several genres. Their discussions are generally medium specific (and those departmental).

I wouldn't consider USC a back up school. it is equally difficult to get into as Yale or Columbia -- about 2-3%.

Hunter is a good backup school, taking about 10% of applicants.

Are the percentages your ballpark estimates based on anything in particular or is there a site that shows the statistics? But yeah I guess it all has to do with diversity in styles...can't explain it beyond that.

[truthbetold]

<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">the percentage i quoted for usc comes from peterson's:

http://www.petersons.com/

select "graduate" then type "mfa yale" "mfa hunter" "mfa roski" etc

then click "admissions"

when i mentioned hunter's rate i was going off their website:

http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/art/MFA/index_faq.htm#howmanyapply

they say 800 apply and 80 are accepted

(so i am not sure why there is a discrepancy w/ petersons.)

info about yale comes from what they say during open house and applied more to painting/sculpture (peterson's includes graphic design in their numbers, which makes the percentage a bit higher).

[TheStranger]

Well I must admit you seem very knowledgeable of graduate programs. For someone who's portfolio will be a hybrid of drawing, painting, digital projection, sculpture and installation...what would you recommend? I am only interested in east coast schools, preferably in New York and with a good name. Thanks for the advice.

[truthbetold]

Well I must admit you seem very knowledgeable of graduate programs. For someone who's portfolio will be a hybrid of drawing, painting, digital projection, sculpture and installation...what would you recommend? I am only interested in east coast schools, preferably in New York and with a good name. Thanks for the advice.

in / near new york, and your best bets based on what you said:

columbia, bard, hunter

near new york and cheap/offer stipend, but not as much of a "good name" as above:

rutgers, tyler

east coast, well worth considering -- especially for sculpture based practices -- despite distance from new york:

vcu

carnegie mellon has an interesting program

and if you're after a good name, why not give yale a shot while you're at it, despite the walls between departments...

Edited July 8, 2011 by truthbetold

[gentlebreeze]

I can't really comment on the linked paintings of that particular artist. But I will suggest you look at Doron Langberg, Kyle Coniglio, Tom Betthauser, Hilary Irons, Didier William. While they are not producing what you would call "Realism" the technical ability is certainly undeniable.

[TheStranger]

in / near new york, and your best bets based on what you said:

columbia, bard, hunter

near new york and cheap/offer stipend, but not as much of a "good name" as above:

rutgers, tyler

east coast, well worth considering -- especially for sculpture based practices -- despite distance from new york:

vcu

carnegie mellon has an interesting program

and if you're after a good name, why not give yale a shot while you're at it, despite the walls between departments...

Thank You. I will look more into rutgers.

[Agradatudent]

those are some terrible paintings

[Arsolo]

I think the main thing to take from this is the following: When you're applying to MFA programs you, as the prospective student, are choosing the school as much as that school is choosing you. There are so many programs out there and each program has different faculty teaching at them. In this sense ranking doesn't matter. I urge everyone applying to really research the programs and find the one's that are going to benefit you the most and the one's that you're going to fit into best. You only get one MFA, you might as well make it the best experience you can.

[losemygrip]

Yes, those are truly some terrible paintings. Laughable. And very much in keeping with what's happening at Yale these days.

I saw the regional MFA show at CAA in New York this year. The Yale work was almost uniformly terrible, along the lines of the above pieces. I strongly discourage prospective students from going to Yale for an MFA. It has nothing going for it but its name and Robert Storr (and for the life of me I can't imagine why he permits this nonsense to be perpetrated under his watch).

If you want to go east coast, try Univ. of Connecticut, VCU, or Tyler. I also saw some really interesting work in the aforementioned MFA show coming out of the new MFA program at Montclair State in New Jersey. If you want to go in NYC itself, it's probably Hunter (although SVA has had some good work in the past).

Columbia's MFA program is somewhat mysterious to me. While they have dynamite faculty (at least reputationally), I rarely see their grads doing anything afterwards. They seem invisible. Maybe that's because they just stay in New York and become absorbed.

I commend you for wanting to go somewhere different. I think the art scene in southern California now is more interesting than in New York, but you are correct in seeing this as an opportunity for growth.

[losemygrip]

Well, I also want to applaud you for having the guts to point out the Emperor has no clothes. Very perceptive of you (and ballsy). The art world needs more of that.

You and the girlfriend need to just apply to a range of schools of varying selectivity, and then make your decisions after you see what you're both offered. Don't go borrowing trouble when you don't even know what your options are.

[Demain]

Tyler is the up and coming star in my opinion. They will press Yale for its spot as the blue blood dilutes.

[truthbetold]

tyler may be on an upswing, and though it may be(come) a strong program, i doubt it will be taking yale's "spot"...

@losemygrip, columbia grads most often remain in nyc (that's where their network is). it does seem that about 50% of them are invisible. but about 50% of them enjoy moderate success (accepted to studio programs, grants, fellowships, etc and group shows in nyc and international galleries) -- which is actually a huge percentage when you compare it to most schools. i think only usc and ucla have comparable success rates. some smaller portion of columbia grads enjoy significant success.

[TheStranger]

http://www.artinamer...ael-rubinstein/

As far as why it is currently being produced, in a grad program or otherwise, I am not so sure ....A matter of taste, I suppose.

I read the article (I missed it before, thinking it was a link to the Wiki site you mentioned). It was a very informative article, distinguishing "Provisional" painting. There seemed to me that there was a difference in the philosophy of art making.

On one side, there is the reasoning that provisional/bad painting is the result of angst of a belated feeling that artists before them left them scrapes to pick from resulting in painting that speaks of this angst that there is nothing left to explore. That masterpieces or painting itself is impossible. The idea to appear amateur and clumsy signifies "Art Risk" which they no longer see attainable by 'normal' methods of big ideas, craftsmanship and detail.

On the other side, (I'm on this side) I see this merely as a visual way for these provisional/bad painters to showcase the whole psychology that painting is dead...which has been the chant for decades and yet people still paint and people still see the value and importance in painting, image making and art. Marcel Duchamp claimed the "end game" of art and sought to abolish it as it was unnecessary--- since the 1960s.

It seems because Yale prides itself in pushing limits and risk taking and moving art beyond its definition, provisional/bad painting can be seen as such....rationally so. They claim it is not about painting the last paintings and so they must mean it is just another movement in art of today. So how strong of a statement or method is provisional or bad painting? I feel this is the real question. And I would say the statement is already old. What are your thoughts on this? How would one who does seek meaning, ideas craftsmanship and detail in their work state their case in contemporary art in terms of risk taking?

...Also, in conjunction with the topic about the purging of faculty in Yale, do you think Yale will lean furthermore towards provisional painting and such types of art? Or will more types of painting (with perhaps the opposite philosophies that provisional painting has) be more recognized as long as it speaks of our time and engages the viewer?

Edited September 14, 2011 by TheStranger

[ol'spice]

All I'll say is I LOVE those two paintings...

[BKCHICAGO]

All I'll say is I LOVE those two paintings...

agreed.

[losemygrip]

Well, there you go. Then you should apply at Yale.

[Sugartree]

I am genuinely interested in knowing why this "kind of work" is being produced in Yale's MFA program...a school I am very interested in.

Hey, man. Who can say? Their application and interview may have had little in common with the sort of work you're posting up here. But rather than focus on a minority of "bad work" could you tell us who at Yale, faculty or graduates, have excited you? You seem interested in the prestige of their school of art, and the weight an MFA might carry when it comes time to face the "politics of hiring," but what has the school generated that really gets you going?

You also mention that you've heard interesting work is coming out of the West Coast. But what work interests you? Where are the artists you admire and how can you plug yourself in to work with them?

I don't think that the faculty and reviewers at any top schools want to hear that your aim with an MFA is to teach. Even if it's the truth, deep down. These programs are looking for students interested in spending a few years (or a lifetime, really) with an absolute focus on their art.

[TheStranger]

When i wrote that 3-4 months ago I compiled a list of schools I wanted to research more based on their standing in ranks. After doing research I will not be applying to Yale. I asked myself those same questions which made the choice easier. As with anyone applying towards a grad program, prestige of the school is a factor...I suppose it was easier to find schools I liked based on their name and location and then narrow it down based on further research.

I really like the professors teaching at UCLA and USC and think they have phenomenal programs and I also personally enjoy the work being produced there. I have compiled lists of professors I really like and plan on contacting them soon.

I absolutely agree that NO grad program wants to hear that you want to teach...which is rightfully so as well as ironically hilarious: First off, as a grad program you want to take in artists, not aspiring art teachers. Secondly, The only way to teach college level courses for the most part is to have an MFA unless you have a really good name in the art world. But as we all know, it is perfectly normal for someone to enjoy the act and role of a professor as well as be a serious artist...I see quite a few individuals just like that. (I even think the act of teaching benefits personal growth).

I will say that I have learned A LOT so far about grad schools and applying. I've done on and off research for the past year on applying to grad school. Now that I have a solid understanding of things this year (my direction and the school's direction) I will apply by next year this time while I continue to micro-research schools I've narrowed down, visit them, converse with professors I like, etc.

Good luck guys!

[TheStranger]

There is an interesting article written by a Yale graduate in "Artillery" magazine this month titled "Yale Graduates: Where Art Thou Now?" He basically says Yale is unorganized, has no aesthetic and does little to develop who you are as an artist. He says that the only thing you get is more unstable artists and maybe sort-of get into the art world...so I suppose he did not appreciate his alumni status. He wrote this article describing what happened to all his classmates after ten years in retrospect.

[brown06]

I think to disregard one type of art over another is "laughable". Go Yale.

[stofo]

those paintings are really bad. but, a lot of an mfa program is about talking about your work, if these paintings are framed in a certain kind of language then they might be on to something, but whatever that something is, i don't personally care because at the end of the day, i am still looking at an ugly painting.

[nimda]

I can only imagine that if you are working like this now, that your work will change a lot in grad school. Maybe its good to look for a program that will let you work in a couple of different ways, rather than just being in a painting department.

[sharethewealth]

There is an interesting article written by a Yale graduate in "Artillery" magazine this month titled "Yale Graduates: Where Art Thou Now?"

@TheStrange, any chance you could scan and post?