School or Subject? UK and US?

[Folly]

Hello everyone, I am an international student with a BA in English Literature in Asia. I have applied for MA/PhD in the UK and the US this year,

but my BA in an non-English speaking country doesn't help much. English lit is very competitive and I was rejected by all the universities

(about 10) I've applied for in the US. Fortunately (or not), I got an offer from the English department at UCL (University College London), but

I am still unsure if this is a good choice. My ultimate goal is to do a PhD in the US and if possible, with scholarship, right now I only

have an offer from UCL. I have several questions:

1. If my ultimate goal is to do a Ph.D in the US, does a degree from UCL help? (Or, if I want to go back to the US system, does an MA

in the UK system helps? )

UCL's English department seems to be prestigious and it is ranked top 1 (Cambridge 2, Oxford 3) by Guardian UK this year. I doubt the

credibility of these evaluations, but it indicates that UCL is no worse than Oxbridge.

2. I'm also thinking about applying for less competitive subjects in better universities, such as theology (no offense), but I am not sure it is worth it.

Some say that the general name/prestige of a university matters more than a good department in a less famous university,

but some say that the subject matters more than the prestige of a school. My professor said "if you plan on further study after the

MA the school doesn't matter as much as the subject, in my opinion." I assume that a "more" prestigious MA (say, in Oxbridge) will help me

more than an MA in UCL when I apply for a PhD in English lit in the US - but I am not sure.

Here is "Good University Guide" from Guardian: Subject ranking matters more than where you study

http://www.timesonli...icle7137237.ece

I wonder how you think? Please help! I am the one who champions the subject over the school, but most people don't seem to agree with me and I started to doubt if I made a wrong decision...

Thanks a lot and any opinion will be appreciated!

[calmflare]

Hi there

Just my two cents:

1) A degree from UCL would open many doors, but it also depends on how well you do and the writing sample you generate while you're there. And you're right, UCL is highly prestigious and is generally regarded as one of the best, most diverse institutions in the world. Congratulations on your offer!

2) Theology is actually very competitive, especially at Oxbridge. What do you want to do your PhD in? If you're doing your Masters just to to get a qualification from a good school, I'd recommend you re-evaluate your priorities and goals... English and Theology are quite different. Remember, when applying for PhD programmes, it's important to show you have an idea of what you're interested in, and motivation is an important factor. A relevant Masters programme may be useful in helping you design your research topic for PhD level. You're going to be spending years on this, so you're the best person to decide.

3) I believe the quality of the department should be a very important factor. As a graduate student, you would be spending time with members of that department and highly-rated departments generally have world leaders in your specific field of study - people who write the stuff in your reading lists, etc. Of course, overall reputation is important, too... but between a uni that's ranked twelth in the world with a top-ranked English department and a uni that's ranked fourth with a lower-ranked department, I'd choose the former. But of course, if the former uni was ranked twentieth, I'd take the one ranked fourth... also, I'd prefer a uni with a diverse range of subjects and specialties so that cross-pollination of ideas can occur.

Hope this helped!

Hello everyone, I am an international student with a BA in English Literature in Asia. I have applied for MA/PhD in the UK and the US this year,

but my BA in an non-English speaking country doesn't help much. English lit is very competitive and I was rejected by all the universities

(about 10) I've applied for in the US. Fortunately (or not), I got an offer from the English department at UCL (University College London), but

I am still unsure if this is a good choice. My ultimate goal is to do a PhD in the US and if possible, with scholarship, right now I only

have an offer from UCL. I have several questions:

1. If my ultimate goal is to do a Ph.D in the US, does a degree from UCL help? (Or, if I want to go back to the US system, does an MA

in the UK system helps? )

UCL's English department seems to be prestigious and it is ranked top 1 (Cambridge 2, Oxford 3) by Guardian UK this year. I doubt the

credibility of these evaluations, but it indicates that UCL is no worse than Oxbridge.

2. I'm also thinking about applying for less competitive subjects in better universities, such as theology (no offense), but I am not sure it is worth it.

Some say that the general name/prestige of a university matters more than a good department in a less famous university,

but some say that the subject matters more than the prestige of a school. My professor said "if you plan on further study after the

MA the school doesn't matter as much as the subject, in my opinion." I assume that a "more" prestigious MA (say, in Oxbridge) will help me

more than an MA in UCL when I apply for a PhD in English lit in the US - but I am not sure.

Here is "Good University Guide" from Guardian: Subject ranking matters more than where you study

http://www.timesonli...icle7137237.ece

I wonder how you think? Please help! I am the one who champions the subject over the school, but most people don't seem to agree with me and I started to doubt if I made a wrong decision...

Thanks a lot and any opinion will be appreciated!

[Folly]

Hi Calmflare,

Thanks for your rick reply! Let me reply point-by-point:

2) I want to focus on English literature for my Phd, so that's why I only applied for English Departments when I applied for my MAs this year. What happened was (at least from my perspective, no offense to anyone): some students applied for different MA that are not in English literature and got in. They also intended to do a PhD in English lit, but their theory is that, since international students are generally less competitive at an MA level when applying for English straight from college, it is easier to take a "detour" or "short cut" by applying for a less competitive MA degree in Oxbridge or Ivy League first, then transfer and apply for an English lit PhD, with the prestige of the MA schools. For example, asian studies, english teaching as second language, comp lit, gender studies..

This is what I didn't do. I agree with you that a consistent interest and focus is important. But I was looked down upon by my friend, who thinks that a non-English

lit degree in a top university carries more weight than an English MA at a lesser school. I am scared and frustrated. I don't know if I could get in any of those other MAs, but I would have given it a try had I knew this is what people think... Somehow I can't totally agree with my friend. I can understand that international students have marginal advantage when competing with students in the UK and the US, but if everyone takes a detour then this is just bizarre. I can't believe that this

strategic maneuver will work out..... Or am I wrong?

1) 3) Thanks for your help! You have good attitude and I should learn from you. I guess I can only work harder at my MA level! Although I don't know how the British system works. Are you also studying in the UK? From what I've heard and experienced UK values independent thinking... which means that profs don't give students enough supervision time and you are on your own. I don't know if I can survive. I've read some other topics in this forum and people talked about getting a distinction. Looks like I should set some goals and goad myself...

Thanks! I will definitely come back again and read your reply. Any comments are welcome.

Hi there

Just my two cents:

1) A degree from UCL would open many doors, but it also depends on how well you do and the writing sample you generate while you're there. And you're right, UCL is highly prestigious and is generally regarded as one of the best, most diverse institutions in the world. Congratulations on your offer!

2) Theology is actually very competitive, especially at Oxbridge. What do you want to do your PhD in? If you're doing your Masters just to to get a qualification from a good school, I'd recommend you re-evaluate your priorities and goals... English and Theology are quite different. Remember, when applying for PhD programmes, it's important to show you have an idea of what you're interested in, and motivation is an important factor. A relevant Masters programme may be useful in helping you design your research topic for PhD level. You're going to be spending years on this, so you're the best person to decide.

3) I believe the quality of the department should be a very important factor. As a graduate student, you would be spending time with members of that department and highly-rated departments generally have world leaders in your specific field of study - people who write the stuff in your reading lists, etc. Of course, overall reputation is important, too... but between a uni that's ranked twelth in the world with a top-ranked English department and a uni that's ranked fourth with a lower-ranked department, I'd choose the former. But of course, if the former uni was ranked twentieth, I'd take the one ranked fourth... also, I'd prefer a uni with a diverse range of subjects and specialties so that cross-pollination of ideas can occur.

Hope this helped!

Edited July 11, 2011 by Shibaboop

[juilletmercredi]

I'm not in English, but I would think that this

since international students are generally less competitive at an MA level when applying for English straight from college, it is easier to take a "detour" or "short cut" by applying for a less competitive MA degree in Oxbridge or Ivy League first, then transfer and apply for an English lit PhD, with the prestige of the MA schools. For example, asian studies, english teaching as second language, comp lit, gender studies..

Would not necessarily be the case. It would depend on how it was done. I don't think that an MA in Asian studies would help in an English literature program, unless you were studying Asian American literature there and planned that to be your focus in grad school. The rest of those degrees can all be conceivably linked to doing an English literature program. For example, someone interested in women's narratives could study gender studies; comparative literature is related to English lit; and even ESL could be related to perhaps looking at second-language learners' writings and pieces. But theology? That's not at all related to English literature (unless you wanted to study liturgical/theological lit...) and could actually hinder you by making you look disorganized unless you have a clear relationship to why theology followed by an English lit degree makes sense.

I would imagine that getting an MA from a more prestigious school with a top-ranked department in your field (so not just Ivy Leagues, but whatever's high-ranked in English lit in the U.S.) would definitely have a big impact on admissions. I'd also imagine that getting an MA in English lit from a mid-ranked American school would be better than getting an MA in theology from a top-ranked American or British school, if the goal is English lit in the U.S. But like I said, I'm not in English; this is simply from observations of the large number of English lit PhD students and hopefuls I know online.

[runonsentence]

I completely agree with the previous two posters' advice.

If you decide to do a degree outside of English and then start applying to English lit PhDs, you'll need to provide a narrative in your SoP indicating why you did it and how you see it relating to your intended area of study. Going outside of English just to get into a master's program won't help you with your future career goals; it may even hinder your English PhD aspirations. Will your theology instructors be able to write strong LoRs, indicating your potential as an English student, for example? Will coursework in an entirely different subject area help to develop and clarify your research interests and scholarly identity (both of which are absolutely critical to writing a strong SoP and getting into a program with a good fit)?

I don't see how studying at UCL would hurt your future applications. In my own experience, a master's degree from a solid state school was incredibly helpful in making me a competitive PhD applicant: I had a much clearer idea of my own scholarly identity, actually found a new subfield that I'm really excited about (i.e., I've abandoned lit for rhetoric and composition), and I came out of the degree with stronger writing, thinking, and research skills that surely strengthened my application packet.

I say go for the master's program at UCL, and don't worry so much about "prestige." It is the materials in your application packet that will matter when you apply for PhDs, and if you have the money and willingness to pay for a master's degree at UCL, it will surely help you in your future endeavors.

Edited July 17, 2011 by runonsentence

[calmflare]

Hey Shibaboop!

Sorry for the late reply!

I'm not studying in the UK, but I have loads of friends who do. UCL is a dream school and as a university it's actually ranked higher than some Ivys, and even Oxford (in the QS ranking). Sure, rankings fluctuate, but UCL is firmly established as steadily being around the top 20, worldwide. Many of its students make it to Oxbridge and the Ivys (this is based on published and anecdotal evidence). These links may help:

1) http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2010-2011/top-200.html

2) http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011/subject-rankings/arts-humanities/english

3) http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011/subject-rankings/arts-humanities/english

4) http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp

I get what you mean by being looked down on by friends. I was from an average Australian university (ranked within the top 300 in the world), did well, and was excited to have received offers from York, Durham, Sussex, etc., among other places. My degree was in Communication and Media Management, and the Masters courses to which I applied were all based on Human Rights and Culture, with the intention of continuing on to a PhD in Sociology (which is related to my MA). When I told my friends that I accepted the Durham offer, many of them didn't know what it was. I constantly felt put down and discouraged, especially since my workplace was filled with people who made it into higher ranked universities such as Cambridge, Oxford, Yale, Boston and UCL. One day, while randomly surfing the net in search for human rights courses at top universities, I came across Columbia's programme. Prior to that I never thought of applying to the US, much less an Ivy. I almost didn't complete the application and decided I had nothing to lose, so I submitted it near the cut-off date, thinking that there was no chance at all that I would be accepted but telling myself that if I didn't try, I'd never know. I applied because I was frustrated of being looked down upon..

I didn't hear from Columbia for a very long time, and I accepted the Durham offer (even paid the accommodation and tuition deposit which came to around $2000). I didn't care that no one seemed to have heard of it, because I knew it was respected in academic circles and would offer me a good education. Nearly purchased my ticket to England, too. And then the Columbia offer came, and I started shaking and nearly cried as I called my friend over the phone to tell him the news. A part of me wished I didn't get it because I thought there was no way I could afford the huge tuition fee and I had already paid a substantial sum to Durham. I almost didn't accept the offer until I negotiated with my sponsors (one of them weren't happy with me wanting to go to the US at first). And then I accepted my offer, wrote in to Durham with a heavy heart (I had my heart set on going there since I loved what I saw of its course and the college, and since my closest friends are based in the UK). I'm sure a couple of my friends doubt if I can succeed at Columbia judging from my middle-class, state-schooling background, but this is my chance to do what I want, and do it well. Hopefully I can get into a funded PhD programme someday.

Ah, I realise I've digressed!

So what I'm trying to say is, if someone from a mid-ranked university could get into his "dream course at his dream school", I'm sure you, from a top-ranked university, would be able to get into the PhD course of your choosing, provided you do well. British schools tend to be more examination-oriented than those in Australia or the US (I never really did well in time-based examinations so I made sure the programmes to which I applied were mainly coursework-based).

Enjoy your time at UCL. I'm confident you'd do well

Warmest!

Hi Calmflare,

Thanks for your rick reply! Let me reply point-by-point:

2) I want to focus on English literature for my Phd, so that's why I only applied for English Departments when I applied for my MAs this year. What happened was (at least from my perspective, no offense to anyone): some students applied for different MA that are not in English literature and got in. They also intended to do a PhD in English lit, but their theory is that, since international students are generally less competitive at an MA level when applying for English straight from college, it is easier to take a "detour" or "short cut" by applying for a less competitive MA degree in Oxbridge or Ivy League first, then transfer and apply for an English lit PhD, with the prestige of the MA schools. For example, asian studies, english teaching as second language, comp lit, gender studies..

This is what I didn't do. I agree with you that a consistent interest and focus is important. But I was looked down upon by my friend, who thinks that a non-English

lit degree in a top university carries more weight than an English MA at a lesser school. I am scared and frustrated. I don't know if I could get in any of those other MAs, but I would have given it a try had I knew this is what people think... Somehow I can't totally agree with my friend. I can understand that international students have marginal advantage when competing with students in the UK and the US, but if everyone takes a detour then this is just bizarre. I can't believe that this

strategic maneuver will work out..... Or am I wrong?

1) 3) Thanks for your help! You have good attitude and I should learn from you. I guess I can only work harder at my MA level! Although I don't know how the British system works. Are you also studying in the UK? From what I've heard and experienced UK values independent thinking... which means that profs don't give students enough supervision time and you are on your own. I don't know if I can survive. I've read some other topics in this forum and people talked about getting a distinction. Looks like I should set some goals and goad myself...

Thanks! I will definitely come back again and read your reply. Any comments are welcome.