Worried about my chances for top English PhD programs. Looking for Advice.

[ivyhopeful]

Hi all,

I am trying to get into a top notch English PHD program. This is my first post on the Grad Cafe. I'm hoping for some constructive and honest advice. First, my stats:

UG GPA: 3.34 (state university, mid level prestige)

MA GPA: 3.92ish (small Jesuit university, mid-level prestige)

1st GRE attempt: 670 verbal, 450 quant, 4.0 AW

2nd GRE attempt: 670 verbal, 440 quant, 5.0 AW

Assumptions:

1. I will publish in a scholarly journal before I graduate from my M.A. program.

2. I will present a paper at a conference.

3. I will get above a 3.9 overall gpa in my M.A. program.

4. Amazing letters of rec.

5. Amazing writing sample/Amazing SOP

I am very worried about my application. I studied my butt off for the second gre and I was unable to boost my verbal at all. I was able to bump my writing score, but I don't think that counts for much. How will ad coms look at my application? Will the high M.A. gpa make up for my dismal UG gpa? What about my gre score? Can I still get in a top program? Advice would be very much appreciated. I am very stressed about the whole process.

Just so you know, I am looking at some very tough schools:

Top Choices: U Chicago, Columbia, Berkeley, Johns Hopkins, UPenn

Mid Choices: Penn State, Emory, Rice, WUSTL, Duke, Northwestern

Low Choices: Syracuse, Purdue, Arizona State, Ohio State

Thanks for the help!

P.S. Any advice on boosting my chances for admission into top programs would be much appreciated!

[runonsentence]

What are your research interests? How do they fit in with the schools you've identified?

Your GREs and GPAs (while solid) are likely the least important parts of your packet. Your "fit" with the departments you've identified will be one of the major contributing factors for getting in, apart from your SoP, LoRs and writing sample.

[Jbarks]

I second runonsentence; it really depends on fit. When I applied to first time around, I was naive when it came to choosing a program. I applied to all top twenties, received an acceptance to an MA program as a consolation prize, and ultimately accepted. It was a really good decision because I now understand how the whole system works. I also have a much clearer research focus. It looks like you have a good selection of schools-- a few from each tier-- which is a great way to start. Also, take a look at this thread:

[ivyhopeful]

Great link Jbarks -- thanks.

I really don't think my GRE's (or GPA's) are solid. At best, I feel that they might be overlooked by an ad com wowed by some other portion of my application. (My undergrad gpa is waaay low/my grad gpa is simply expected by top programs/plus, I didn't graduate from prestigious programs) Columbia says -- flat out says -- that they hardly ever accept anyone with a GRE lower than 680 (you can find this on their site). Some programs, however, do seem fine with a GRE like mine -- Duke (average score is 670) / Northwestern (700ish with wiggle room) / UNC Chap (680 average score) / etc. My fear is with tip top programs (columbia/penn/chicago/etc)

Whatever the case, both of your posts mentioned the importance of "fit." This term has always been a bit confusing. If you find three profs you share an interest with, does this mean you "fit." More importantly, how should an applicant best go about showing an ad com that they "fit." Strategies?

(sorry about any typos -- I typed this quickly without much thought about grammar and spelling)

[runonsentence]

You should still at least try applying to reach schools; you never know. I didn't make the GRE cutoff for either school that offered me a competitive acceptance package.

Yes. By "fit" I mean that your SoP and writing sample show that you are pursuing the kind of research that your prospective program is capable of supporting. (That means that maybe you have overlapping research interests with faculty there, or that you work with a similar methodology, etc. etc.) There's no one answer to what fit is, but your SoP should show that you are aware of the academic culture of the program you are applying to and its research; your writing sample would, ideally, demonstrate the kind of research you'll be doing as a student at their program, which (again) should fit in with the kind of work they can support.

You might find this thread more helpful than my rambling:

[Two Espressos]

I always find these "rate my chances" threads very curious.

I'll just offer a few points, based on what I've heard/read/etc.

1. Yes, your undergraduate GPA is very low. It would have negatively affected you if you applied to top PhD programs right away. However, you got an MA (and did well in that program), so that will more or less overcome your undergraduate grades. Thus, I wouldn't worry about it.

2. Your GRE verbal score is respectable. It might make some top-tier schools raise an eyebrow, but it's probably not going to get you shut out of programs.

3. Your assumptions, if they come to fruition, will help your application. The general rule of thumb is that for MA applicants, having conference presentations and a publication or two are expected. BA-only applicants aren't held to the same standard, though those things might help them.

4. Prestige matters. Where you get your BA and MA matters. A high-prestige applicant (all else being equal) will probably be admitted over someone with little to no prestige (I speak to myself when I say this, as I attend a prestige-less institution ).

However...

It is entirely possible (anecdotal evidence abounds on these fora) for one to overcome one's lack of prestige and attend a top-tier program. Your biggest assets in this goal are your writing sample and statement of purpose. If you have a stronger focus and are a better fit with a top-tier program, then you'll most likely be admitted over a BA from Princeton who only applied to the program because of its rank on US News and World Reports.

As always, the most important aspects of your application are your writing sample and statement of purpose (and letters of recommendation, but you already said yours would be amazing). These are the things you need to fine-tune the most.

Good luck!

Edited August 17, 2011 by Two Espressos

[runonsentence]

Sorry, I read your post quickly--I see why you were nervous about your undergrad GPA. Still, it's not dismal, and your adcom will likely weigh your MA work much more heavily (because it actually speaks to your capacity to do graduate-level work).

[ivyhopeful]

Thanks for all the help! I appreciate everyone's input.

If anyone wants to keep this thread alive I have one more question: What the heck do English PhD programs think of analytical writing scores? I have heard different opinions -- usually extremes, i.e., they don't care at all or you must at least have such and such score. My first gre I got a four (didn't really know what was expected of me/didn't practice at all) and my second gre I got a five after doing several practice essays. Is this AW score good/bad/mediocre/who cares, doesn't matter anyways?

[runonsentence]

They know that it doesn't matter (i.e., that it mostly measures your ability to write a five-paragraph essay with certain kinds of sentence structures and word variety), but they usually have target scores for it, just like the rest of the GRE.

But really, they'll have actual writing from you in front of them.

[truckbasket]

What the heck do English PhD programs think of analytical writing scores?

In order to score well on the GRE analytical writing and please the software that grades the essay, you need to devolve your writing proficiency to about an 8th grade level. A five paragraph, formulaic essay with the most mundane, lifeless sentence structure possible will get you a top-notch score.

So on one hand, grad programs will be receiving samples of your highest quality critical writing that's been polished and prepared to perfection over an extended period -- as well as statements that are thoughtful, wise, and paint a vivid portrait of your capacity as a writer. On the other hand, they'll have a formulaic piece of shit from the GRE.

Unless you're submitting a score of 2 or something, I wouldn't worry.

As far as your UG GPA goes, most applications ask you for your major GPA (or an accumulation of your junior and senior years). Also, how are your subject test scores? Although that's generally lower on the list of requirements, a lower score might send you to the reject pile much faster than a strong one.

That aside, all the figures you listed, while maybe not competitive, seem perfectly reasonable. Besides, stats and figures are not what gets you an offer, it's all about fit with a smidgeon of luck.

[ivyhopeful]

To be honest, I am terrified to take the subject test in literature. I don't want to do poorly and have that screw everything up. I am only applying to programs that do not demand the subject test. I wish I could apply to programs that demand the subject test, but I just do not feel confident. Classic lit (19th century mainly) is my speciality -- derrida/zizek/butler/etc freak me out. I haven't studied it as much as I should (although I have taken a couple theory/crit courses). I do plan on reading more canonical theory works in the near future, so maybe I will tackle the subject test eventually.

My major gpa is a 3.33. My cumulative is 3.34. My junior/senior year is probably around a 3.6 but I would have to check to be sure. Maybe a 3.5 but not lower than that. GRE verbal = 670 (both times) AW = 4 the first time and 5 the second time. M.A. gpa will be about 3.9. Probably 3.92 or 3.91.

I know my figures are competitive for some programs. I just don't know about the very top tier. I think I have a shot. That is what I have essentially gleaned from this thread -- I have a shot dang it!.

[truckbasket]

I am only applying to programs that do not demand the subject test. I wish I could apply to programs that demand the subject test, but I just do not feel confident.

It might be wise to contact some of the DGAs at these programs just to get a feel for their GPA cutoffs as 3.7 ish seems to be the average minimum. If some programs won't even consider your application because of the UG GPA, it'd save you some money to find that out now rather than after you apply. As far as your MA GPA, it's a bit different as 4.0 (or close) is pretty much expected.

Not to belabor this as it came up in another thread, but even programs that don't demand the subject test still, in most cases, do accept and take into consideration subject test scores. (Columbia would be the exception as they literally won't allow you to submit the score.) But the problem is that you're going to be up against candidates applying for the same positions who will be submitting subject test scores, regardless of whether or not they are a requirement.

The test sucks ass, but limiting programs that you can apply to -- in addition to potentially setting yourself at a disadvantage against other candidates -- might not be the wisest move. If your package is rad and they totally love you, yet they have an applicant who is equally rad but submitted subject scores (as an added push), chances are the offer goes to them -- the funding certainly will.

Edited August 17, 2011 by truckbasket

[truckbasket]

As an addendum to illustrate just how much good fortune and the luck of 'fit' plays into this process (as well as making contact with programs way in advance), post-season I contacted a program that rejected me just to get feedback on my application (as I sincerely thought the 'fit' was perfect, and was a little disheartened by such a swift rejection). The response was troubling: In short, I was told that my package was solid, my writing was very good and universally liked etc., but that the program simply wasn't accepting anybody in my field that year (modernism) because they already had too many students working in that area. Had I known in advance that my application would have been pointless, I could have saved myself an application fee.

[ivyhopeful]

Good advice. I'll think about the subject test.

[ivyhopeful]

That's rough about your rejection. Have you been accepted anywhere?

[truckbasket]

I was fortunate that I got offers and I went with a program that I think had the overall best fit (and were the most genuine in their desire to take me on). That example was just one program that I found out about after the fact. Had I been in better communication with them, I might have been able to discern that modernists were in fact blacklisted for that year, and either wait until next year or move on.

Don't let a rusty GPA or average GREs get you down, though; they're literally just a series of numbers and say very little about you as a candidate. Admission committees know this and are more interested in reading your actual work than a numerical representation of you. Go at this process with the enthusiasm that you're a kick-ass candidate and that any of these programs will be fortunate to have you. Don't let something as lame as the subject test hold you back from trying. If you happen to have a blip on your otherwise awesome package, it's just not worth stressing about -- even the top scoring applicants will have a smear somewhere or other. Focus on presenting your work in the best way you can and you'll have just a good a shot as everyone else. Aside from that, it's out of your hands!

Edited August 17, 2011 by truckbasket

[ivyhopeful]

Well, I'm happy for you. I probably shouldn't be completely stressed. I did score in the 95th percentile on my verbal (not outstanding, but not a deadly score either), and I do feel confident about most aspects of my application. Even if I only get into a decent state school, I will still survive. And hey, I might get lucky and wind up in a top notch program.

Edited August 17, 2011 by ivyhopeful

[lolopixie]

From my experience applying last season, you only need a certain GPA and a certain GRE score to push through the weed out rounds. Some schools specifically state they want 600 verbal (for example) on your GRE and a 3.5 GPA. If you do not have these requirements, you will be sliced in the first review round and your application will never really be reviewed. You can always contact programs of interest to see if they will provide you will the cut-offs.

I know my GRE score is what did me in last year. It was the only part of my application that was not good. I thought my other credentials would off-set it, but that was not the case. I spoke to 2 programs and received confirmation of this (I didn't contact the other 8 because I was too emotionally distraught to hear it more). Keep in mind these top tier programs are receiving around 500 applications for about 10 slots -- brutal cuts will be made. I would think you will make it through the first rounds with your GPA and GRE scores

[hashslinger]

On 8/16/2011 at 5:24 PM, ivyhopeful said:

Hi all,

I am trying to get into a top notch English PHD program. This is my first post on the Grad Cafe. I'm hoping for some constructive and honest advice. First, my stats:

UG GPA: 3.34 (state university, mid level prestige)

MA GPA: 3.92ish (small Jesuit university, mid-level prestige)

1st GRE attempt: 670 verbal, 450 quant, 4.0 AW

2nd GRE attempt: 670 verbal, 440 quant, 5.0 AW

Assumptions:

1. I will publish in a scholarly journal before I graduate from my M.A. program.

2. I will present a paper at a conference.

3. I will get above a 3.9 overall gpa in my M.A. program.

4. Amazing letters of rec.

5. Amazing writing sample/Amazing SOP

I am very worried about my application. I studied my butt off for the second gre and I was unable to boost my verbal at all. I was able to bump my writing score, but I don't think that counts for much. How will ad coms look at my application? Will the high M.A. gpa make up for my dismal UG gpa? What about my gre score? Can I still get in a top program? Advice would be very much appreciated. I am very stressed about the whole process.

Just so you know, I am looking at some very tough schools:

Top Choices: U Chicago, Columbia, Berkeley, Johns Hopkins, UPenn

Mid Choices: Penn State, Emory, Rice, WUSTL, Duke, Northwestern

Low Choices: Syracuse, Purdue, Arizona State, Ohio State

Thanks for the help!

P.S. Any advice on boosting my chances for admission into top programs would be much appreciated!

Don't discount the GRE's importance just yet. While it's true that numbers are the "least important" part of your application, they still matter. And the GRE can be your best friend when it comes to compensating for a lackluster undergrad career or a degree from an unknown school. My friend credits his 1580 composite for taking the attention off his 3.2 GPA. Beyond that, the GRE can sometimes be crucial to securing fellowship money.

But, as others have said, your writing will be the most important. Since you're applying to such high-ranking schools (even the mid-range ones are competitive), you need to be able to articulate how your project really, really makes you stand out among 500 applicants, many of whom have degrees from prestigious colleges, high test scores, and award-winning writing samples.

[asleepawake]

If it makes you feel better, my undergrad stats are significantly worse that yours, Ivyhopeful! At this point, we can't change what we did in undergrad. I try not to think too much about mine because it just drives me crazy. However, I don't want to be applying to schools that will just throw my application in the trash. I check individual program websites for GPA cut-offs, though perhaps I should be e-mailing them if nothing is listed. I believe that a good writing sample, SOP, LORs, and MA GPA should trump BA pretty quickly, but maybe I'm being hopefully naive.

[shepardn7]

In order to score well on the GRE analytical writing and please the software that grades the essay, you need to devolve your writing proficiency to about an 8th grade level. A five paragraph, formulaic essay with the most mundane, lifeless sentence structure possible will get you a top-notch score.

This is definitely wrong! I once met someone who graded GRE essays. Real people do read them (many from academia, as I think to read them you do have to have taught college courses with a writing component). I would imagine that they get bored quickly. I would advise against this approach and just try to write a good essay (sentence variety and all), honestly.

[lyonessrampant]

Yeah, it is really hard to guess on the stats questions. I had a 3.9 UGPA and MAGPA, a 700 V, 6.0 Q, and a 680 subject test. I got some great offers but no top-10 offers. I was told when I contacted for feedback that I was close, oh so close (as in very last round and missed by a few people) at Chicago and Duke. I got lots of positive feedback on my SOP and writing sample from those programs, and ultimately the reason why I got beat out was fit. The proposed projects/research interests of the other people I was competing with at the end matched better with the interests of the faculty in my subfield. I'm happy where I ended up, got a great funding package, and have great faculty resources, but I'm not at a top-10 school. I share this only to say that you should apply based on ranking AND fit. If you don't have anyone to work with, it is unlikely a program will accept you. At the same time, reputation matters a lot for getting a job and all that, so do consider a program's placement rate when choosing where to apply and ultimately accepting. For example, my advisor here has placed every one of his advisees in TT jobs for over 5 years now. This speaks well for my chances, and it mattered a great deal when deciding between offers. Do your research to find that kind of information. Good luck on your applications!

[truckbasket]

This is definitely wrong! I once met someone who graded GRE essays. Real people do read them (many from academia, as I think to read them you do have to have taught college courses with a writing component). I would imagine that they get bored quickly. I would advise against this approach and just try to write a good essay (sentence variety and all), honestly.

Actually, it's both. A computer grades it first, analyzing for sentence complexity and variation. It determines keywords that should be used for given topics, and looks at phrasing structures related to pre-programmed standards. It assigns a grade based on this and generates a report. A reader, usually a graduate student who may or may not have experience with composition, scans the essay (90 seconds is the suggested average) and verifies the computer's report.

How do I know this? I was approached to be a grader.

I'll reiterate from direct experience that what they want is a formulaic 5-paragraph-esque structure. Good luck to all those who have it coming up!

[JeremiahParadise]

Really interesting stuff, truckbasket. I believe you off hand, but, after all, this is the Internet. Would you mind corroborating your claims? Do you have any links to sources backing up what you're saying? Thanks.

[truckbasket]

I was working in a writing center that was mainly staffed by PhDs (I was doing a BA) and the center director at the time had arranged a meeting with a representative for a variety of grading positions (there were some other positions available too, like local proctoring). I actually declined right off the bat, but I still sat in for the talk and the subject came up during a Q&A about the process of the work itself and what kind of time commitment would be expected.

I should point out though, the only place I've ever seen this info in print was in GRE prep material from either Kaplan or Princeton Review (I forget which). One of those texts mentioned the computerized review, but didn't go into too much detail. From what I can tell (without seeing it in action) it's something along the lines of safe-assign, but mainly focuses on analytic complexity etc. It's also been a couple of years, so maybe they've veered away from this? I'd certainly hope so.

If people are concerned about it, I'd simply suggest following the guidelines in the "crack" texts -- they give you a solid idea of how to approach the writing efficiently, and to give the ETS what they're looking for. Again, a creatively written piece that diverts from an orthodox structure will likely prove to be problematic, so best bet is to play it safe and nail the argument well following the suggested formulaic strategies, and don't get too crazy. It's probably the easiest part of the GRE -- and one that few grad programs seriously take into consideration, so don't stress it too much.