Applying after several years removed - Late Antiquity

[Kg00kg]

I am currently considering applying for graduate study and would love some advice. I graduated roughly four years ago from a good school with a 3.5 GPA and a major in Economics and a minor in History. After graduation, I immediately went to work for a consultancy and have been doing that ever since. Great for paying the bills but not fulfilling in the slightest sense.

In hindsight, it was a pretty big mistake. History has always been my passion and was considering graduate school in history even while still in undergrad. faced with mountainous amounts of debt from undergrad (since paid off), it seemed like the rational choice at the time. Now four years out, I would like to go back to study trade and economics within Late Antiquity.

As I look over the applications process and recommendations for various programs, I feel really stuck on the language requirements for my desired field of study. Most notably, my Latin is almost non-existant. I have no qualms with doing what I need to do to get up to speed and am dedicated to getting to where I need to be. However, after talking to faculty at several programs they really made it seem as though without undergraduate coursework in Latin (even if I follow a rigorous course of self study and attend a summer course next year) I really don't have much of a shot.

As far as the GRE, I am taking the test in about a month and have been putting significant time into studying for the exam over the last couple of months. I have historically done very well on standardized exams and am not expecting a low score *fingers crossed*.

For my letters of recommendation, I have two history professors from undergrad who remember me well and are willing to write letters. For the third, based on my professional background, does it make sense to have a recommendation written by a colleague from my job, or will the admissions board not really care about my professional record? My thought is it could demonstrate a strong work ethic and good performance within a high-intensity job.

Based on my background, am I better off applying to a stand-alone MA program and then trying to work my way into a good PhD program?

[CageFree]

I left LA for another LA - Latin America I was considering going back to LA for about two years.

It's hard to say what your chances are, but the lack of Latin and Greek will definitely put you at a disadvantage. The best LA programs require Greek, Latin, German and French for the PhD - you can go in with two and do the other two, but if you don't have any foundation, it's going to hurt your chances at any program, especially top programs.

With Greek and Latin there are summer intensive courses you can take that will get you up to the fluency you need. They are not cheap but that's what a lot of people do.

It may be worth it to do the MA and one of the major languages (Latin preferably) at the same time-- if you can, do French too. Then you'll be a stronger PhD applicant to a top program like Penn.

In this particular field, job prospects are not good... and if you don't have a PhD from a top program, the chances that you'll find tenure-track work are practically non-existent. This came from my old adviser when we spoke a year or so ago.

Also, do your research about who's teaching where because there have been several moves... Claudia Rapp left UCLA for University of Vienna, Peter Brown is retiring from Princeton... those are just two that I can think of right now.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Teacher4PhD

[maeisenb]

I have kind of been in a similar situation as you and I think it's great that you took some time off to work and get settled post-college, since it definitely makes you realize what you want to do a lot and what you love.

I've also been in a similar spot with the language issues, as anything early history wise is always a bit trickier for sure. It can definitely be frustrating coming from an American system in which you might not have taken any medieval or late antiquity classes until your second or third year and by that time it was a bit late (especially if you also did econ) to start the languages that you needed. The field is certainly requiring a greater specialization at an earlier period in college, which, unless you know you definitely want to go straight through, is really hard to actually do.

That being said, what languages do you have of the four that you will eventually need (Greek, Latin, German and French) as Teacher4PhD correctly pointed out? It sounds like you don't have Latin, but what about Greek or German/French? If you have 2 of the 4 (one ancient and one modern), then you might be able to get by with that on an application depending on what you want to do exactly. If for example you wanted to do something much more Eastern based (e.g. Roman-Persian trade in the 6th century or something like that), you could in theory be ok knowing only Greek and German for example since you would need Armenian and Syriac anyway, which unless I'm mistaken (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here), I don't know anywhere that teaches that undergrad wise. All of that being said, if you don't have any of the 4 it will be quite tough.

As for where your recommendations come from, I wouldn't be against having a professional recommendation, but I've heard that potential advisers take that as less important. That being said, there are other people on here who are in grad school/have served on committees so they would certainly know more and I would defer to their knowledge on that in particular.

I would suggest looking into several MA programs as well as PhD ones, since the entire process, regardless of whether you have the languages is so much a crap shoot. Have you looked at possibly some MA programs in England in the field as well? These have several advantages. First, they are one year instead of two, which packs in everything more, but also cuts down on the time factor (seeing as you are 4 years out). Second, in Late Antiquity in particular there are some great people there - especially at Oxford, St. Andrews, UCL, King's College London, and a few other places - that are really top notch in their field plus have the school name ID that doesn't hurt either. Third, even though you will pay more than the English students as a foreign student, I think it still comes out to around the cost of half a year of a 2 year MA program in the US (i.e. something like 20k for the entire year rather than 2 years at 40k).

[Kg00kg]

Unfortunately, my applicable language background is not there. I have a year of Italian and four years of highschool Spanish. I guess my question is if the promise of being up to date with languages upon beginning my MA (self study over the next year and an intensive class next summer) enough to be considered?

I imagine that would really be going out on a limb. I do have a strong reference from the field however; not sure if both through my SoP and recommendations making that commitment is enough for consideration?

[Sparky]

(Side note: Did you get my PM?)

You would probably be okay applying to standalone MA programs without Latin. For PhD programs, however, no Latin (assuming that will be your primary research language; if you're looking at the Greek East, substitute "Greek" for all occurrences of "Latin") is a deal-killer. I mean this in terms both of admissions and in terms of your ability to handle the work when you are in the program.

(self study over the next year and an intensive class next summer)

Self study and the introductory summer course will not be enough for PhD work. Even if you can somehow sneak in under the admissions radar. You will not be able to keep up in class; you will not be able to do the research. Also note that PhD adcoms are rightly suspicious of "rigorous self-study" and will probably ignore it on your application unless you do something like sit for the Latin SAT II test or independently take Toronto's proficiency exam--at least, that's how my current dept suggests for people without formal Latin coursework to prove their ability--because it does not work.

Honestly, I wouldn't even mention the self-study bit in your SOP. It's kind of laughable. But you could say something like how you're using the MA to prepare for PhD work, and are looking forward to the program as an opportunity to get your Latin into research shape (or some such). It's pretty common for medievalists, at least, who lack Latin from undergrad to pick it up during a master's degree with a goal in mind of applying for PhDs.

One other option to consider is a separate post-bacc classics program. I think Penn probably has the most well-known one. It's basically just a year of Latin and (I think) Greek, but you really really learn your languages. (I should have done this.)

[maeisenb]

I agree with most of what Sparky wrote, although I'm not personally crazy about post-bacc programs since they tend to be very expensive and if you want to strengthen yourself by doing more history then you can't do that as easily. Although Sparky is correct that they really hammer the languages home and, from what I've heard, do a pretty good job of it. Hence my view of English MAs where you can do as intensive language as you want/need (Latin or Greek and a modern language) plus still do lots of history work. Also, really helpful since you've been out for awhile getting yourself back into reading, researching, and writing.

[Sparky]

I agree with most of what Sparky wrote, although I'm not personally crazy about post-bacc programs since they tend to be very expensive and if you want to strengthen yourself by doing more history then you can't do that as easily.

Yup--money being an important reason I *didn't* do a separate program.

HOWEVER.

I would argue that the opportunity to learn Latin/Greek without other coursework is a gift. Beyond a gift. It's one thing to build up your Latin at the normal pace of the undergrad track while doing regular undergrad work. It is an entirely different universe of pain to go from zero to hero (and hate to break it to you, but after the summer intensive course you will likely have moved from the negatives to zero) over the course of a semester or even year while also trying to do full-time graduate work.

Note the "trying to do."

It's one thing to need Latin for a subfield where most sources have been translated, where you're mostly just checking up to make sure the published translations are accurate. For that, I can see where a summer course plus working intensively with a tutor might suffice. (That's how I got through the proficiency test at my MA school, in fact, so I'm guessing it does suffice for a lot of people in that situation). You need an entirely different level of knowledge for a Latin-based subfield like Western classical/early medieval.

[Sigaba]

For my letters of recommendation, I have two history professors from undergrad who remember me well and are willing to write letters. For the third, based on my professional background, does it make sense to have a recommendation written by a colleague from my job, or will the admissions board not really care about my professional record? My thought is it could demonstrate a strong work ethic and good performance within a high-intensity job.

What type of consultancy do you work at currently? Will the skills you use now translate effectively to an academic's frame of reference?