Funding and Acceptance questions

[Emma Maroon]

I'm interested in going for an MDiv or MTS starting in Fall 2012, and as I'm applying I'm curious about my chances and what my stats are good for. I went to a solid state university, but my professors didn't have a lot of information for me on divinity schools and my likelihood of acceptance or funding. I'm hoping that someone here could give me a clue. Some stats:

- Undergraduate degree in Philosophy in 2005, 4.0 major GPA

- 3.95 GPA

- GRE: new scores, so only an estimate - 570-670 Q and 750-800 V

As far as undergrad, I did really well, was very active in the department - ran some groups, edited the philosophy journal, founded some other groups - and got to know all my professors very well. I know that I have wonderful recommendations from them all. I wrote an Honors Senior Thesis on Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, and theistic existentialism, which I did very well on, and since my professors were not experts on religion or Dostoevsky, it was mostly independent research. I've had a couple of my shorter papers published in university wide journals, and I came in first place in a university research conference for my presentation of a portion of my thesis.

As far as personal stuff, I'm not particularly interesting. I love academia and am passionate about religion and philosophy, and I'm looking to enter some kind of full time ministry that combines a love for service and people and a love for academia - possibly a campus minister of some kind. I'm currently volunteering with Americorps in a year-long construction position, and enjoying it very much. I've spent a year traveling, and volunteered with A Christian Ministry in the National Parks last summer in Glacier National Park leading worship services, I spent last spring in the religious study community L'Abri in England, and then I spent a month as a visitor in an Anglican monastery in England. However, I'm not active in a church community, and I attended a megachurch in college and was fairly uninvolved (I chose to get involved in philosophy instead). I was involved in campus ministry my freshman and sophomore years, but phased out by junior year.

I love God and I love thinking about God, and I'm fascinated in particular by Christian mysticism and religious existentialism (Kierkegaard in particular). My religious denomination is flexible, but right now I'm generally Protestant. I want to get an MDiv in order to begin to think about combining community and people with academics and theology.

My top schools are:

- Notre Dame (for an MTS since I'm not currently Catholic)

- Boston College School of Theology and Ministry (most particularly for access to the BTI libraries and professors)

- Yale

- Princeton Theological Seminary

Am I aiming too high? With my stats, is there a chance of acceptance/funding at any of these schools?

[Balatro]

Your chances of acceptance at all of those schools will be superior however funding is really too subjective for the most part.

Notre Dame has plenty of money and I know MDiv students are fully funded but however as you noted, you must be Catholic. You mentioned "not currently Catholic" which seems odd but ones own religious quest is just that, their own -- however fully expect that should you convert, they'll look to make sure you've been Catholic for some time - generally 2-3 years. I would fully expect that exceptional MTS students will be funded to some degree but someone else will have better knowledge there.

I can't really comment on BTI so I'll pass as a whole. I've known students to attend other institutions in the BTI - Andover and Harvard who received funding for MDivs. Though if your interest truly lies in ministry, I'd suggest passing on Harvard but it's not on your list anyway so it's moot.

Yale has traditionally provided very generous funding, most of the people I ran across while there at least had a 1/3 tuition remission, quite a few were 2/3, and a surprising number that were awarded full scholarships.

PTS is in the same boat as Yale though possibly more generous with their funding. Two people from graduating class in undergrad went to PTS for MDiv and both were awarded full scholarships - one was a mediocre student but active in ministry. The other finished his BA in 3 years, did his MA (history) his 4th year, Phi Betta Kappa, a handful of articles and book chapters published by the time he finished his MA, ranging from history, philosophy, and religious studies and was in the middle of ordination with the PCUSA - phenomenal student and currently at PTS for a PhD. PTS also awarded him a stipend of $15,000 though I can't recall what his duties were.

I suspect, assuming the school thinks you'll be a good fit and vice versa, you'll be accepted everywhere you apply. But ultimately funding for MDivs is a guessing game but Yale and PTS at least have traditionally been very liberal with it.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Balatro

[sacklunch]

ND is going to be the hardest out of those options, and as far as I know the only one that fully funds all its students. I suspect places like PTS, like BC, are fairly homogeneous as far as its students. There are exceptions here at BC, of course, but the majority of the students are Catholic. It doesn't seem to be a problem for those that are not though. I have taken about half my classes from BTI schools (a ton of BC dept. of theology) and have been fairly happy with the results (the reason I came here honestly).

good luck.

[whubbla]

I am curious why you are targeting so few schools. Forgive me for giving unsolicited advice, but given your interests and credentials, I would suggest considering Chicago, Duke, Harvard, Union in New York, and Vanderbilt. You could conceivably get $ from any of them. If you want to pursue Kierkegaard to the ends of the earth, go to the Theology School at Copenhagen University in Denmark.

[11Q13]

Harvard is pretty good with funding, most students get full tuition remission. You'd probably get in with your stats.

[Emma Maroon]

Thanks, everyone! Very helpful.

Whubbla, I did look at Harvard and Chicago and the flavor of the school wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I'm definitely looking for a diverse school, but Harvard and Chicago seem to have fewer orthodox options than a place like BC or even Yale. My visit to Duke didn't impress me, but I haven't looked seriously at Vanderbilt or Union.

My problem is specifically funds for applications. I'm a full time volunteer and am really pinching pennies (I've stopped speeding while driving because I'd have to take out a loan to pay a speeding ticket...) I really can't afford to apply to more than three schools. I also have no real perspective on what schools I'm likely get accepted to.

[The Dasein]

You're certainly not aiming too high. You should at least get into Yale, BC, and PTS. From what I understand, however, Notre Dame is extremely hard to get into, and receiving significant financial aid is next to impossible.

Have you considered the Toronto School of Theology? It's probably the best theological consortium in North America/Canada, and it would be a great fit for someone who's ecumenically inclined. I'm going to apply to TST's Wycliffe College ("Yale north," as it's often called), as well as to Duke Div, Perkins School of Theology, and Princeton Theological Seminary.

I share your skepticism about Harvard and Chicago being able to demarcate a particularly orthodox Christianity. That might not be a huge factor for a doctoral student, but for someone pursuing an MDiv, the schools you've selected are certainly great options.

[Emma Maroon]

I've heard that about Notre Dame as well. Unfortunately for me, I absolutely fell in love with it when I visited - I'm trying to sound wildly interesting and that ever magical "perfect fit" in my statement, but I guess I'm going to have to prepare for a broken heart.

What's the buzz about Candler? I just had a minister friend give me an admissions waiver for it, and I haven't heard much about it before. Worth applying?

Finally, Dasein, have you applied yet to PTS? They were a last minute addition for me, but when I saw that they had rolling admission starting in October, I panicked because I don't have all my stuff ready yet. What's the dead with rolling admission? How soon should I get it in to be competitive?

I haven't looked at Toronto at all! I'll check them out.

*edit* Another question. I haven't been involved in a church, heavily, since my freshman year of college. I got involved in academia instead (not really a substitute, I know) and in college attended a mini-mega church (just under 1,000 attendees). The pastor knows of me - I stayed involved in small groups, and my dad serves pretty closely with him in ministry - but I've probably had three conversations with him in my life. That's pretty much all I've got for pastoral reference. Anyone here attend a mega church? And will this sink my application?

Edited October 23, 2011 by Emma Maroon

[Sparky]

From what I understand, however, Notre Dame is extremely hard to get into, and receiving significant financial aid is next to impossible.

Gwuh? Why do so many people have the idea that ND doesn't fund its grad students? I mean, yes, it's ridiculously hard to get into, but the MTS has free tuition, the MDiv is free for Catholic students (the MDiv program is designed specifically for Catholic lay people who want to work within the Catholic Church), the PhD program has tuition remission and a decent baseline stipend...IIRC, nearly all academic (versus law/business) grad students at ND automatically get full tuition remission.

Hard to get into...well, that's another story.

[11Q13]

Thanks, everyone! Very helpful.

Whubbla, I did look at Harvard and Chicago and the flavor of the school wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I'm definitely looking for a diverse school, but Harvard and Chicago seem to have fewer orthodox options than a place like BC or even Yale. My visit to Duke didn't impress me, but I haven't looked seriously at Vanderbilt or Union.

My problem is specifically funds for applications. I'm a full time volunteer and am really pinching pennies (I've stopped speeding while driving because I'd have to take out a loan to pay a speeding ticket...) I really can't afford to apply to more than three schools. I also have no real perspective on what schools I'm likely get accepted to.

I certainly am sympathetic to your concern about "orthodoxy" at Harvard. I consider myself a moderate socially, politically, etc. and a bit toward the liberal side theologically...but at Harvard I often feel very conservative. On the other hand, the faculty is no more liberal or conservative than at BC (that's BCE at Harvard, haha ...joke!), and the MDiv is very flexible. You could take your shiny full tuition scholarship from Harvard and take nearly half your classes at BC if you wanted. I had been a full time volunteer for almost two years when I applied, and I have to say (and I mean this in the nicest way possible, you're obviously very smart), limiting yourself to three schools is a bit nearsighted. You should apply to all the schools that you feel called to apply to. This is the next three years of your life, these application fees are a drop in the bucket in the long term. Also just fyi about the BTI libraries, you would only have access to Harvard's Div school library.

Edit: oh and yeah about Notre Dame. Best funding at any school there is! Especially at the PhD as far as I'm aware. Because of the cost of living, every PhD student at Notre Dame that I know owns their home.

Edited October 25, 2011 by 11Q13

[sacklunch]

I certainly am sympathetic to your concern about "orthodoxy" at Harvard. I consider myself a moderate socially, politically, etc. and a bit toward the liberal side theologically...but at Harvard I often feel very conservative. On the other hand, the faculty is no more liberal or conservative than at BC (that's BCE at Harvard, haha ...joke!), and the MDiv is very flexible. You could take your shiny full tuition scholarship from Harvard and take nearly half your classes at BC if you wanted. I had been a full time volunteer for almost two years when I applied, and I have to say (and I mean this in the nicest way possible, you're obviously very smart), limiting yourself to three schools is a bit nearsighted. You should apply to all the schools that you feel called to apply to. This is the next three years of your life, these application fees are a drop in the bucket in the long term. Also just fyi about the BTI libraries, you would only have access to Harvard's Div school library.

Edit: oh and yeah about Notre Dame. Best funding at any school there is! Especially at the PhD as far as I'm aware. Because of the cost of living, every PhD student at Notre Dame that I know owns their home.

Haha! BCE eh?!?

All joking aside, you should consider applying to HDS. From my time spent there (BTI + friends) their faculty honestly doesn't seem any more liberal than BC's STM/Theology dept.

The best thing you can do is speak with current students, which you are doing now! Also, if you can, visiting is a great idea. I think BC's prospective student day is in a couple weeks.

good luck.

[sacklunch]

I've heard that about Notre Dame as well. Unfortunately for me, I absolutely fell in love with it when I visited - I'm trying to sound wildly interesting and that ever magical "perfect fit" in my statement, but I guess I'm going to have to prepare for a broken heart.

What's the buzz about Candler? I just had a minister friend give me an admissions waiver for it, and I haven't heard much about it before. Worth applying?

Finally, Dasein, have you applied yet to PTS? They were a last minute addition for me, but when I saw that they had rolling admission starting in October, I panicked because I don't have all my stuff ready yet. What's the dead with rolling admission? How soon should I get it in to be competitive?

I haven't looked at Toronto at all! I'll check them out.

*edit* Another question. I haven't been involved in a church, heavily, since my freshman year of college. I got involved in academia instead (not really a substitute, I know) and in college attended a mini-mega church (just under 1,000 attendees). The pastor knows of me - I stayed involved in small groups, and my dad serves pretty closely with him in ministry - but I've probably had three conversations with him in my life. That's pretty much all I've got for pastoral reference. Anyone here attend a mega church? And will this sink my application?

I would consider applying to Candler, too. They are arguably better for certain interests than a lot of the "ivy schools". A good friend of mine has her MDiv from there (now doing another masters at BC) and has nothing but great things to say about their faculty.

[Emma Maroon]

This forum is magical and you all are supremely helpful.

I had been a full time volunteer for almost two years when I applied, and I have to say (and I mean this in the nicest way possible, you're obviously very smart), limiting yourself to three schools is a bit nearsighted. You should apply to all the schools that you feel called to apply to. This is the next three years of your life, these application fees are a drop in the bucket in the long term.

Since the above list, I've expanded (with some graciously provided fee waivers from several schools), and now we're looking at

- Notre Dame

- Yale

- BC

- Princeton

- Candler

And Harvard has definitely sounded the siren call for me, and I'm sorely tempted. But the reality is that I do feel called to ministry, and from my visits to Harvard, I don't feel like it's the best fit for me. I wanted it to be - Boston is my favorite city, and a diploma from Harvard is nothing to sneeze at - but the culture on campus, the professors that I spoke to, and the general reputation of Harvard doesn't seem to indicate that this is where God is calling me. Unfortunate, but true.

What does "ridiculously hard to get into" mean for Notre Dame? Is there anything I can do at this point to boost my application? (Oy vey, I knew that I should have started a non-profit somewhere in Congo and written a seven volume post-liberal interpretation of Kierkegaard!)

[Balatro]

This forum is magical and you all are supremely helpful.

Since the above list, I've expanded (with some graciously provided fee waivers from several schools), and now we're looking at

- Notre Dame

- Yale

- BC

- Princeton

- Candler

And Harvard has definitely sounded the siren call for me, and I'm sorely tempted. But the reality is that I do feel called to ministry, and from my visits to Harvard, I don't feel like it's the best fit for me. I wanted it to be - Boston is my favorite city, and a diploma from Harvard is nothing to sneeze at - but the culture on campus, the professors that I spoke to, and the general reputation of Harvard doesn't seem to indicate that this is where God is calling me. Unfortunate, but true.

What does "ridiculously hard to get into" mean for Notre Dame? Is there anything I can do at this point to boost my application? (Oy vey, I knew that I should have started a non-profit somewhere in Congo and written a seven volume post-liberal interpretation of Kierkegaard!)

If you're not feeling called to Harvard, there's nothing wrong with that. When I was going through the process for the Episcopal priesthood (still am, just a transitional deacon now), I applied to Harvard's Div School and was accepted. I visited the school and loved it. However when I sat down with my Bishop he made it very clear, if I went to Harvard he'd remove me from the ordination process. Not b/c it was too liberal or the opposite of Nashotah but because the preparation for ministry inside a church is so limited. I was upset and contacted some other Episcopal bishops that I'd met at conferences to consult with them and they all agreed - they'd remove someone wanting to go to Harvard Divinity due to the school being ill-prepared to place students in parish ministry.

Long story short, I went to Yale and had the time of my life.

[Sparky]

What does "ridiculously hard to get into" mean for Notre Dame? Is there anything I can do at this point to boost my application? (Oy vey, I knew that I should have started a non-profit somewhere in Congo and written a seven volume post-liberal interpretation of Kierkegaard!)

Nah, that's sort of my point. I was probably thinking more of the PhD program when I wrote that (which has an absurdly low acceptance rate--much lower than the MTS, one assumes). But the MTS seems to be selective enough to be one of those programs where who gets in and who doesn't seems completely random. They have so many qualified and overqualified ("written a post-liberal take on Kierkegaard") candidates that in the end it comes down to which side of the bed the person who reads your application first woke up on. (That's what *I* meant, at least. There are a decent number of ND MTS alums on here whose interpretation of that absolutely overrides mine.)

[sacklunch]

Sparky is right. Because they are the only (as far as I know) school that funds all of its graduate students they seem to get a lot of applications. Not to mention their fantastic faculty.

Edited October 26, 2011 by jdmhotness

[11Q13]

What does "ridiculously hard to get into" mean for Notre Dame? Is there anything I can do at this point to boost my application? (Oy vey, I knew that I should have started a non-profit somewhere in Congo and written a seven volume post-liberal interpretation of Kierkegaard!)

The ND MTS takes something like 20 students a year, perhaps less, and funds them all. I'd hazard to guess Harvard takes 50-100 MTS students a year, with no gurantee of full funding, and we still reject something like 4/5 applicants. More applicants for fewer spots basically. IIRC the Notre Dame statement of purpose is also really short, making it even harder. One thing you might do to "boost" your application is to contact a professor or two who you might like to work with. Something as simple as that can make your name go from a list of 100 other unknowns to "oh yeah, I got a nice email from this guy." It's not much, but better than nothing.

Also, which Princeton?

[Balatro]

Also, which Princeton?

PTS