Neuroscience PhD, UCSF or Brown?

[othito]

So I've gotten a number of acceptances for Neuroscience PhD programs. I've narrowed it down to UCSF and Brown. The former is clearly a better program, and everyone I mention this to (my PI, my grad class professors, my major advisor) says I should go there. I can see myself rotating with 5 or 6 people, three of whom are doing particularly awesome stuff. There's also much more of a "community" for the specific kind of work I'm interested in (microcircuit dynamics).

But there's this one guy at Brown who is just awesome.

I know the conventional wisdom is not to go anywhere for one person. But this guy at Brown is amazing. He's smart and funny and really down to earth. He seems like he would make a fantastic mentor, and all of the people from his lab who I have contacted have agreed that he's a great mentor. He even called me yesterday morning to tell me that if I want a spot in his lab, it's right there waiting, funding and all. He even has a particular project that he wants me to start (a collaboration with another prof. at Brown).

UCSF would be a safer bet in many ways. It's better respected as a program (and for good reason), and I would have (many) backups in case I don't like the lab environment. But I just can't get over how awesome this Brown guy is....

Other factors to consider:

- UCSF doesn't have great teaching opportunities (since they don't have an undergraduate), and eventually I want to teach, but there are ways to teach at local colleges in San Francisco and people do do it frequently (or so I'm told). Brown on the other hand has great teaching opportunities.

- I'm originally from Providence, so Brown would be like moving back home (a fairly big downside for me) and I LOVED San Francisco.

[NeuroGal]

I am familiar with the field but in this case I don't think the schools matter as much as what you said. The crucial thing is: one PI. You do not want to bank your career on 1 person because numerous things can go wrong. What if they have a family emergency, retire, a horrible personality, change their line of research, go on sabbatical, go crazy, lose funding, etc. Both are actually excellent programs and you would do well at either. You are basing this decision on where you are at right now in your life. Your own interests can change throughout graduate school and ultimately it's better to have options.

This was difficult for me when I was applying to neuroscience programs. I wasn't sure whether I wanted a rotation based model or a mentor model and what worked for me was a rotation model. I'm so glad because now that I am a couple of rotations in, I realize that the person I thought I wanted to work with really isn't the best fit for me. In addition, my interests changed dramatically and I am doing something completely different from what I intended on!

[intirb]

Brown has a wonderful, well-respected neuroscience program. And there are a few really big name neuroscientists there. I'm not sure which decision you should make, but I don't think you would find yourself in a bad position at Brown if your current POI doesn't work out.

[othito]

NeuroGal:

These are all things that I'm considering. Like I said, the guy is awesome, I've met with him twice and had phone conversations with him at least three times. Our personalities really jive fantastically. I remember when I got into the program he texted me to let me know, then called me up and said "Congrats! Now let's cut the crap, where else are you thinking about?" I really appreciate that kind of no-fluff straight talk on a personal level, and he always makes me feel really comfortable and excited about his work.

But who knows what it'd be actually like to work in his lab, as opposed to just talking to him?

Brown has a wonderful, well-respected neuroscience program. And there are a few really big name neuroscientists there. I'm not sure which decision you should make, but I don't think you would find yourself in a bad position at Brown if your current POI doesn't work out.

Thing is, I have fairly specific interests. I'm interested in how biophysically realistic parameters can generate empirically observed computational properties of small circuits. This can manifest itself in many systems or problems, but that's the level I'm interested in, and because Brown's program is relatively small their community on that front is much smaller.

[NeuroGal]

When I had my interview with my top choice PI she was amazing! We hit it off spectacuarly and she proved an excellent thought mentor. I was able rotate with her but I later learned that funding is a serious issue in her lab and she was fairly far removed from the day to day work. I realized through working there that I appreciate people who are actually in the lab doing research (this isn't all that common, but it is possible to find) and who have a strong work ethic for conducting research. In addition, the laboratory was a little too unstructured for me which is not something I would have realized during an interview.

My point to you is, had I gone to the program only to work with her, I may have found myself unhappy. I know a friend who recently went to work for one mentor and is having a miserable time. His mentor is hardly ever there, wants to move his research in a completely new direction, and provides very little actual mentoring. My friend had no clue about this because they also hit it off well. Going to a school for one person is very risky. How will that person deal with conflict? How will they correct you if at all? Does the laboratory have a good environment for your personality? Do they have several RO1s or are they in the process of reapplying?

[othito]

When I had my interview with my top choice PI she was amazing! We hit it off spectacuarly and she proved an excellent thought mentor. I was able rotate with her but I later learned that funding is a serious issue in her lab and she was fairly far removed from the day to day work. I realized through working there that I appreciate people who are actually in the lab doing research (this isn't all that common, but it is possible to find) and who have a strong work ethic for conducting research. In addition, the laboratory was a little too unstructured for me which is not something I would have realized during an interview.

My point to you is, had I gone to the program only to work with her, I may have found myself unhappy. I know a friend who recently went to work for one mentor and is having a miserable time. His mentor is hardly ever there, wants to move his research in a completely new direction, and provides very little actual mentoring. My friend had no clue about this because they also hit it off well. Going to a school for one person is very risky. How will that person deal with conflict? How will they correct you if at all? Does the laboratory have a good environment for your personality? Do they have several RO1s or are they in the process of reapplying?

Your points are all well taken. Come to think of it, all of the things I can point to that I really like about my top choice PI at Brown are really just charisma, which says nothing about how he might be as a mentor. Even if I had a meeting with him every week, the environment in a lab could be totally different from what I expect. None of this is possible to figure out from an interview.

I think I knew all of this at some level, I just needed to be reminded of it. Thank you so much!

[NeuroGal]

You're welcome! Glad I was able to provide perspective. These decisions can be very difficult. Lord knows where I'd be without counsel!

[Dapi]

From the posts above, I'd go to UCSF. Brown will always be there, and maybe his lab would be a perfect post-doc situation for you. Good luck!

[othito]

So one of my friends mentioned to me another alternative that I didn't consider.... maybe I should try to go to Brown anyways and see if I like it, and if I don't just transfer to another program.

What do you all think of that?

[NeuroGal]

That is personally not very appealing to me but that's because for graduate school I like a lot of stability in my life. Things are so stressful as it is that the thought of reapplying, moving, finding a place to live, etc, all while doing my studies seems a bit much.

Because you are still struggling to come to a decision, you could always contact the graduate students in the Brown lab and ask for more details. As a graduate student I am more than happy to give honest advice and have always been given honest apprasials by the current lab members. Some things you could consider asking:

What type of personality succeeeds best in this lab?

What are the 3 struggles you have in the laboratory?

What is the funding situation like (you can ask the PI this too)?

What is the mentoring style of the PI?

How often do you get to meet with the PI for a face to face?

How does the PI handle conflict?

What hours do you usually work in the laboratory? What hours are expected?

What are the top 3 stregnths of the lab?

How many years does it normally take a student to graduate if working on their thesis in this lab?

How many students have transferred out of the lab?

In addition, you should also ask the PI questions although realize that they will have a more biased view. I did this during my interviews for those I was interested in working with.

How would you describe your mentoring philosophy?

Are you more hands on or hands off?

What expectations do you have for your graduate students?

How do you handle conflict?

What is your funding situation like for the next several years?

What personality traits have your most successful students had?

Edited March 19, 2012 by NeuroGal

[edenseye]

UCSF. better location!

[abc123xtc]

I agree with those who are saying to go to UCSF! You love SF and have the potential to work with a few different people on an area you are interested in -- which would not be the case at Brown. You can always keep in contact with the professor at Brown -- maybe you will have a chance to work with him someday.