How do you guys deal with articles like this?

[siarabird]

http://chronicle.com...l-in-the/44846/

Basically outlined in that article are a whole host of reasons to never ever ever get a PhD in the Humanities. I see this kind of information everywhere on the internet, and hear it from a lot of people in person.

None of this ever came as a surprise to me, I've been aware of the terrible job market for as long as I can remember. I just feel so frustrated reading these things because, well, maybe I'm trying to get into a PhD program for other reasons than just getting a job after I graduate. I'm trying to get into a PhD program because I'm going to be a senior next year, and I actually literally cannot imagine leaving my education behind at this point. I feel like I'm barely beginning to learn. It makes me incredibly sad to think that by the end of next school year I could be done with formal study of literature....I just can't imagine it.

I don't know if I'm trying to get into a PhD program for the right reasons - I mean, believe me, I do want to get a job after I graduate, obviously, it's just that that's not the only reason. I'm going because I have a legitimate, overwhelming passion for what I'm studying. As I'm sure do all of you.

My question is I guess, how do you guys deal with such discouragement? I'm currently getting it from all sides. The only person actually encouraging me to pursue a PhD is, well...me. It gets really, really hard sometimes.

EDIT: Also, as far as finances go...I'm definitely not going to go unless I'm fully funded. In this case, I don't see how anyone could discourage a person from being paid to study. Sure, a stipend isn't exactly a ton of money, but it's a living. I'd probably be making something similar at any entry-level position I get straight out of undergrad. Or is this the wrong way to think about it?

Edited March 19, 2012 by siarabird

[cokohlik]

I read a similar article, also by William Pannapacker (the article you quoted was in his pen name) that he wrote last year and it flew me into a rage. I cannot stand his articles. I don't understand him.

This is how I deal/dealt with it.

I too wouldn't pursue a PhD unless it was fully funded. That amount of loans, for me, simply isn't something I could ever justify. However, luckily many PhD programs here in the States admit with funding (at least in art history).

When you get discouraged, you have to just keep reminding yourself that you're dedicating yourself to years of specialized study because you enjoy what you do and enjoy pursuing and creating knowledge. That's what I remind myself. You know if graduate school is something that you can and should dedicate yourself to for the betterment of your self or your career or both, and articles like this shouldn't deter you if indeed graduate study is what you really want. Jobs will come. It's scary, I admit that. I'm terrified of graduating and then being on the job market. But at least I'll have achieved the first part of my goal (the PhD), and I can worry about jobs when the time comes, maybe a year or two before actual matriculation.

I hope this is helpful or encouraging. Chin up!

Edited because the formatting was crazy. Double edit: He's written at least 2 articles saying the exact same thing -- this one, in 2009, and the one I read, in 2011 -- and probably some in between. I feel like he's made it his life's work to tell people NOT to go to graduate school.

Edited March 19, 2012 by cokohlik

[TripWillis]

I don't deal with them. It's a fact that completing a PhD and finding a job after is a huge challenge. I understand. I no longer care. The point is, if it discourages you, you were probably never meant to do it. If it doesn't discourage you, you are either crazy or your passion for the field is too strong to be rational.

Also, keep this in mind: "I know I experienced all of those motivations when I was in my early 20s. The year after I graduated from college (1990) was a recession, and the best job I could find was selling memberships in a health club, part time, in a shopping mall in Philadelphia. A graduate fellowship was an escape that landed me in another city — Miami — with at least enough money to get by. I was aware that my motives for going to graduate school came from the anxieties of transitioning out of college and my difficulty finding appealing work, but I could justify it in practical terms for the last reason I mentioned: I thought I could just leave academe if something better presented itself. I mean, someone with a doctorate must be regarded as something special, right?"

It sounds like 1) He is trying to graft his poor grad experience on to everyone else's, and 2) He is, in general, a very condescending writer. I definitely agree that grade/rec inflation is a huge problem (something I'm trying to correct, even though many of my students hate me (while others adore me (I'm the most polarizing teacher I know))), but anyone who has done cursory research into the graduate application process knows that ad-coms care very little about the numbers anyway.

I am currently completing an M.A. program, and at a recent meeting of the student council (and others), the grad deputy polled us to see how many were considering PhDs. Everyone raised their hands, like 20 people. I happen to believe that, based on statistics, only about 3-5* of them are liable to be accepted in the first place; moreover, only 1 or 2 could be counted as people who were serious about graduate study and not just biding time (and I know that sounds judgmental, but I've been in a lot of classes with these people and I know what they're like and what their goals are). There are a lot of things that weed people out and a lot of ways for one to tell if they will be satisfied before their career as an academic ever begins. Everyone is different. His experience doesn't match everyone's, not even close.

*A very liberal estimate. In reality, our program sends MAYBE 1 person off to a PhD every year. One year we had like 4 and it was mindblowing.

Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that it's fine to heed warnings and do research and get a lot of opinions, but remember that you are an individual and allowed to make whatever choices you want with your life, whether they are destructive or not. And, in many cases, the choices that seem the least destructive are the ones that haunt you. I, for instance, could've pursued hospitality to my death, since I was very good at it. The problem is, I used to sob uncontrollably before my shifts because of how much I loathed and despised going there. The money was excellent though. But, unless you're really into luxury goods, having babies, buying McMansions, and eating out at 4 star restaurants, how much money are you going to need in your life? It's up to you, really. That's all.

Edited March 19, 2012 by TripWillis

[cokohlik]

It sounds like 1) He is trying to graft his poor grad experience on to everyone else's, and 2) He is, in general, a very condescending writer. ... The point I'm trying to make is that it's fine to heed warnings and do research and get a lot of opinions, but remember that you are an individual and allowed to make whatever choices you want with your life, whether they are destructive or not.

*applause*

[Rupert Pupkin]

Yes, the job market is very weak, but I feel like everyone who is embarking on this journey already knows that. Sometimes I wonder why there are so many people who get off on trying to dissuade us. Sure, some people believe they are offering pragmatic advice to naive, starry-eyed students, but I sense that a lot of people criticize this process out of envy, bitterness, and resentment. The job market in the humanities is not the only thing currently in shambles. News flash: the entire economy is. I am currently working 30 hours/week at $10/hr as an errand boy at a large, soulless corporate law firm. If I want to continue my literary study in a fully funded program (funding that is more generous than I am currently receiving), why on earth would anyone tell me otherwise? This isn't 30 years ago. Most of us aren't turning down potential $50k+ salaries to languish away in grad school. For me the financial outlook a grad program provides is superior to the alternative, regardless of the woeful job market at the other end of the doctorate.

Also, do the people who write these doom and gloom articles not realize that graduate study provides intrinsic worth? It strikes me that the type of person that would pursue a graduate degree in the humanities is the same type of person that would not conform to the worship of the dollar. Most academics are far leftists. It comes as no surprise that an argument founded upon "you won't be able to monetize your degree as much as you could in generations past" would fall on deaf ears. Why can't they understand that maybe, just maybe, we want to go to graduate school because knowledge provides us with more value than a dollar ever could.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Rupert Pupkin

[TripWillis]

Since I believe in balance:

http://chronicle.com/article/What-I-Tell-My-Graduate/126615/

[cokohlik]

Yes, the job market is very weak, but I feel like everyone who is embarking on this journey already knows that. Sometimes I wonder why there are so many people who get off on trying to dissuade us. Sure, some people believe they are offering pragmatic advice to naive, starry-eyed students, but I sense that a lot of people criticize this process out of envy, bitterness, and resentment. The job market in the humanities is not the only thing currently in shambles. News flash: the entire economy is. I am currently working 30 hours/week at $10/hr as an errand boy at a large, soulless corporate law firm. If I want to continue my literary study in a fully funded program (funding that is more generous than I am currently receiving), why on earth would anyone tell me otherwise? This isn't 30 years ago. Most of us aren't turning down potential $50k+ salaries to languish away in grad school. For me the financial outlook a grad program provides is superior to the alternative, regardless of the woeful job market at the other end of the doctorate.

Also, do the people who write these doom and gloom articles not realize that graduate study provides intrinsic worth? It strikes me that the type of person that would pursue a graduate degree in the humanities is the same type of person that would not conform to the worship of the dollar. Most academics are far leftists. It comes as no surprise that an argument founded upon "you won't be able to monetize your degree as much as you could in generations past" would fall on deaf ears. Why can't they understand that maybe, just maybe, we want to go to graduate school because knowledge provides us with more value than a dollar ever could.

AMEN to all this. I think you hit the nail on the head. Especially with that last sentence. I couldn't agree more if I tried...

I can't stand these articles. They're so jaded!

[TripWillis]

Yes, the job market is very weak, but I feel like everyone who is embarking on this journey already knows that. Sometimes I wonder why there are so many people who get off on trying to dissuade us. Sure, some people believe they are offering pragmatic advice to naive, starry-eyed students, but I sense that a lot of people criticize this process out of envy, bitterness, and resentment. The job market in the humanities is not the only thing currently in shambles. News flash: the entire economy is. I am currently working 30 hours/week at $10/hr as an errand boy at a large, soulless corporate law firm. If I want to continue my literary study in a fully funded program (funding that is more generous than I am currently receiving), why on earth would anyone tell me otherwise? This isn't 30 years ago. Most of us aren't turning down potential $50k+ salaries to languish away in grad school. For me the financial outlook a grad program provides is superior to the alternative, regardless of the woeful job market at the other end of the doctorate.

Also, do the people who write these doom and gloom articles not realize that graduate study provides intrinsic worth? It strikes me that the type of person that would pursue a graduate degree in the humanities is the same type of person that would not conform to the worship of the dollar. Most academics are far leftists. It comes as no surprise that an argument founded upon "you won't be able to monetize your degree as much as you could in generations past" would fall on deaf ears. Why can't they understand that maybe, just maybe, we want to go to graduate school because knowledge provides us with more value than a dollar ever could.

*cue Pannapacker reading this, looking down his nose at you, and calling you naïve.*

The guy's articles obviously have nothing to do with benevolent advice anyway. It's just provocation meant to strike up people's interests and debates and get more copies of The Chronicle in front of people's faces. Plus, he teaches at Hope College, which is a total piece of shit conservative Christian college in Michigan. I know a lot of empty and soulless people who went there for accounting degrees*. I wouldn't be surprised if his motivations stem from dissatisfaction with the political culture of humanities these days.

*wooowww I'm judgmental.

[siarabird]

I don't have the time to write a full reply right now but, just...thank you. Thank all of you. You're making me tear up a little bit. Thank you for understanding and giving me a bit of hope again. I don't have anyone to talk to in real life about this kind of stuff because I'm the first person in my whole extended family to ever even go to college, and none of my friends are in college either. I love you guys.

[hiphopanonymous]

you are an individual and allowed to make whatever choices you want with your life, whether they are destructive or not.

Pretty much this is where I ended up. I've been in media (with good people, at a good job that values reading and writing and is not especially soul-killing at all) for a couple years since graduating. So pace Benton the lure of the English department for me is not that it delays making a career choice. It just leads to a more attractive career if I can, against the odds, make it work. And I believe, especially now that I have a couple decent offers for next year, that I have a nonzero chance of doing that.

To answer your question, siarabird, I dealt with articles like this (and with the one or two professors I had who took it as axiomatic that no one should ever go to grad school in the humanities--ever) for 7+ years (including undergrad) by wringing my hands and worrying about how hard it is and doing other things. But ultimately you only get to do all this once. If going to grad school for English turns out to be the worst, most self-destructive thing I've done, I'll have led a pretty tame life, and I will still have had family to love and dogs to pet.

Edited March 19, 2012 by hiphopanonymous

[TripWillis]

Pretty much this is where I ended up. I've been in media (with good people, at a good job that values reading and writing and is not especially soul-killing at all) for a couple years since graduating. So pace Benton the lure of the English department for me is not that it delays making a career choice. It just leads to a more attractive career if I can, against the odds, make it work. And I believe, especially now that I have a couple decent offers for next year, that I have a nonzero chance of doing that.

To answer your question, siarabird, I dealt with articles like this (and with the one or two professors I had who took it as axiomatic that no one should ever go to grad school in the humanities--ever) for 7+ years (including undergrad) by wringing my hands and worrying about how hard it is and doing other things. But ultimately you only get to do all this once. If going to grad school for English turns out to be the worst, most self-destructive thing I've done, I'll have led a pretty tame life, and I will still have had family to love and dogs to pet.

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but how is that Princeton waitlist looking? Rooting for you! Then again, maybe we'll wind up cohort mates at the other NJ school.

[starmaker]

I'd like to see more articles dedicated to encouraging grad students to form a workable "Plan B" instead of discouraging them from trying their "Plan A".

These people, or some of them anyway, write all these articles because they think they're helping a bunch of innocent students avoid a life of destitution (and honestly, as a leftist activist, I find the idea that money should be irrelevant, to a leftist or anyone else, to be a little strange - some of my fellow activists are homeless, or they have big medical bills that they can't pay, and I'm pretty sure money, and their lack of it, is relevant to them). But if the worry is that the "Plan A" tenure-track professorship won't work out, why not talk about the employable skills that you can develop while you're making your way through grad school (if in a field with no industry market)? You can get an EMT certification and gain experience moonlighting or on your school's volunteer force. You can get certified as a plumber or an electrician. And then, if your Plan A does work out (as I hope it does for all here), you'll have picked up some highly useful extra skills along the way.

[GuateAmfeminist]

I don't have the time to write a full reply right now but, just...thank you. Thank all of you. You're making me tear up a little bit. Thank you for understanding and giving me a bit of hope again. I don't have anyone to talk to in real life about this kind of stuff because I'm the first person in my whole extended family to ever even go to college, and none of my friends are in college either. I love you guys.

Congrats to you! I am in the same boat as you for the college thing and it makes it real tough and easy to succumb to the negative voices because we are surrounded by people who have zero experience in this field. I personally have been lucky to avoid some stupid mistakes in the college and grad school process just due to my lack of connections and ignorance. I sometimes feel like articles like this are meant to keep the elite as the only ones in academia.

But sorry for my rant, thanks for posting - now I don't feel so alone!

[TripWillis]

I'd like to see more articles dedicated to encouraging grad students to form a workable "Plan B" instead of discouraging them from trying their "Plan A".

Egg-fucking-zachtly.

Not to mention, exploring a lot of Plan B opportunities and options while doing my M.A. made and will make the Plan A a little easier to attain in the long run. There is professional experience and money out there in the world of books, writing, reading, and teaching; you just have to be entrepreneurial and tenacious.

I think the "money doesn't matter" thing is not really the case with most of us who are thinking straight; it's more like "money doesn't matter as much as my happiness/is not directly causative to my happiness." I'm certain for most of us that it's still correlative (yay argument analysis...).

EDIT: Thought this would help. If you're concerned about a job, these are the sorts of benchmarks or things you might want to strive toward in addition to completing your coursework and shit:

-3 or 4 published articles

-2 or 3 book reviews in academic journals

-graduate service (besides teaching) all 5-8 years on councils, conference committees, ad-coms, etc.

-Regular attendance at professional conferences

-Clear idea of 5-10 potential dissertation topics from day one of graduate school

-Independent research

-Summer reading lists

-Extra languages

-Teaching experience and experience designing non-comp courses

-Experience with "pitching" books and articles for publication

-A network of esteemed colleagues who you can collaborate with on potential anthologies or other works

-Luck

Edited March 19, 2012 by TripWillis

[hiphopanonymous]

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but how is that Princeton waitlist looking? Rooting for you! Then again, maybe we'll wind up cohort mates at the other NJ school.

Thanks, Trip! I have a couple meetings with people from the department coming up, but I've been trying to leave the DGS alone since the initial email bombardment (which she was very pleasant about). I don't actually know when their visiting day is, but I'm trying to relax until April. Any news on your situation? If I recall it sounded really promising given how far up on the list you are. I'm rooting for you, too. And FWIW I like that department as much as either of the others, so we may well end up in the same cohort. (I'm visiting tomorrow. PM me later in the week if you want to chat about it.)

[Stately Plump]

Since I believe in balance:

http://chronicle.com...raduate/126615/

This article makes some fantastic points. I have recently been talking to some professors while visiting schools and asking about their job placement rates. They all say the same thing: the job market is bad, but there ARE things you can do to set yourself apart. You can't guarantee yourself a job, but you can prepare yourself.

One professor I spoke with said she was recently on a job search committee. She said that of all the application she received, only about 10% had been published. So, she was saying, getting published early and often can likely increase your chances.

There are other things we can do too. I'm not too worried about it. Worst case scenario is I get a PhD and work in a grocery store. Sucks, maybe, but could be worse

[TripWillis]

Thanks, Trip! I have a couple meetings with people from the department coming up, but I've been trying to leave the DGS alone since the initial email bombardment (which she was very pleasant about). I don't actually know when their visiting day is, but I'm trying to relax until April. Any news on your situation? If I recall it sounded really promising given how far up on the list you are. I'm rooting for you, too. And FWIW I like that department as much as either of the others, so we may well end up in the same cohort. (I'm visiting tomorrow. PM me later in the week if you want to chat about it.)

I most definitely will want to chat about it, THANKS! It does seem very promising, but I, like you, am avoiding e-mailing the DGS and being patient until AT LEAST next week, so nothing new has come up. Also, I have begun to think about this whole thing differently after my visit to the Grad Center and my weekend at NeMLA; if I wind up at CUNY, I will be incredibly happy regardless, but for totally different reasons than if I go to Rutgers. It has become a tougher decision than I had ever anticipated, but I'll just be patient and see.

[Silent_G]

I don't deal with them. It's a fact that completing a PhD and finding a job after is a huge challenge. I understand. I no longer care. The point is, if it discourages you, you were probably never meant to do it. If it doesn't discourage you, you are either crazy or your passion for the field is too strong to be rational.

Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that it's fine to heed warnings and do research and get a lot of opinions, but remember that you are an individual and allowed to make whatever choices you want with your life, whether they are destructive or not. And, in many cases, the choices that seem the least destructive are the ones that haunt you. I, for instance, could've pursued hospitality to my death, since I was very good at it. The problem is, I used to sob uncontrollably before my shifts because of how much I loathed and despised going there. The money was excellent though. But, unless you're really into luxury goods, having babies, buying McMansions, and eating out at 4 star restaurants, how much money are you going to need in your life? It's up to you, really. That's all.

All of this. I hear all the warnings about the job market, but somehow I can't be discouraged by them even if I try. It just doesn't bother me. I'm pursuing my passion, my dream, the only thing that I can see myself doing happily for the rest of my life, the only career that I can imagine being fulfilled by, and if it doesn't work out--and I can't believe that it won't, eventually, after a LOT of hard work and persistence--then at least I know that I went for it, and I won't look back on my life wondering what if...

[Fiona Thunderpaws]

Can I just say thank you to everyone for your kind and inspiring words? I've been in a bad place all weekend, and reading everyone's responses to the usual 'going to grad school will RUIN YOUR LIFE FOREVER' arguments has helped me feel a little bit better about the whole situation. This semester has been the first on in 17 years where I haven't been in school, and not having my academic support network while trudging through the nightmarish application season is really starting to get to me the closer to we move towards the 15th... But I have all of you lovely strangers here on TGC to keep me sane when I start drifting. So, thanks everyone!

[Imogene]

You guys have probably all seen this, but this is my favorite response to the myriad humanities-grad-school-deterrents out there:

[veniente]

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but how is that Princeton waitlist looking? Rooting for you! Then again, maybe we'll wind up cohort mates at the other NJ school.

Some schmuck down-thumbed you - rectifying it now.

Good thread; I like reading the reasons, compelling and otherwise, that people have for pursuing graduate study. 'The crisis of the humanities' has been a hot issue in recent times; without having read it, I (probably) recommend Martha Nussbaum's recent Not for Profit: Why Democracy Needs the Humanities.

Edited March 19, 2012 by arrivant

[siarabird]

You guys have probably all seen this, but this is my favorite response to the myriad humanities-grad-school-deterrents out there:

Thank you so much for posting that! I've seen the video that prompted the above video, with the girl who "wanted to study death in literature"

[TripWillis]

Some schmuck down-thumbed you - rectifying it now.

Cretins.

[TripWillis]

Thank you so much for posting that! I've seen the video that prompted the above video, with the girl who "wanted to study death in literature"

I also like the original video though. "Harold Bloom is a misogynistic narcissist."

[Datatape]

"He is not even in their English Department. They gave him his own Department of Humanities because nobody could frakkin' stand him."

I think every faculty member and grad student in the English Department at my school can quote that video, word for word.